A Life With Meaning

[Guest jackvance88]

hi:

i've been feeling really down lately. i quit going to church about 3 years ago and since then haved walked in darkness. i'm fed up with it though. i'm tired of sin, of unhappiness, of anger and frustration, but more than all that, the cloak of darkness that seems to surround me even when the noon sun is shining. i didn't quit church because of any doctrinal reasons. i just seemed to slip. i fell off the side of the mountain and nobody seemed to notice. i got myself lost in those mists that lehi spoke about.

anyway, it's not just that i want to come back into the fold and be a good latterday saint and so on. i've been thinking lately, that i don't think i can get through life unless i really know that god lives and that after every today there will always be a tomorrow, that i am eternal. i need this knowledge. i know, i've got to begin by faith, repentence, obedience. i'm willing to do all those things, though i feel so weak and unable to do them at the same time (?).

but, once i'm doing that, is it possible to move beyond faith? the scriptures seem (to me at least) to suggest that faith isn't an end in itself, but a stepping stone to knowledge. i don't want to live out my days in hope and faith, but not really knowing. i want that knowledge. i want to know as sure as i know that i'm typing these words. how do we do that?

anyway, are these odd thoughts for a inactive sinner? the other day i hiked a mountain in utah. i was exhausted when i got to the top. i've been reading the old testament and i noted that many of the prophets would commune with god in high places when seeking him. so i though to do the same. at the top i found myself alone and there prayed along these lines. i came close to making a vow, but stopped short because i got scared. vows seem like very important things in the old testament. nevertheless, i did pray. once finished, i gathered some stones, just a few, and stacked them one upon another. i don't know why. just something i read in the bible which the prophets often did and not in the context of sacrifice.

is this odd? do i sound like i need a shrink more so that the gospel. i have no indications whatsoever.

[Franken]

Originally posted by jackvance88@May 26 2005, 01:51 PM

hi:

i've been feeling really down lately. i quit going to church about 3 years ago and since then haved walked in darkness. i'm fed up with it though. i'm tired of sin, of unhappiness, of anger and frustration, but more than all that, the cloak of darkness that seems to surround me even when the noon sun is shining. i didn't quit church because of any doctrinal reasons. i just seemed to slip. i fell off the side of the mountain and nobody seemed to notice. i got myself lost in those mists that lehi spoke about.

anyway, it's not just that i want to come back into the fold and be a good latterday saint and so on. i've been thinking lately, that i don't think i can get through life unless i really know that god lives and that after every today there will always be a tomorrow, that i am eternal. i need this knowledge. i know, i've got to begin by faith, repentence, obedience. i'm willing to do all those things, though i feel so weak and unable to do them at the same time (?).

but, once i'm doing that, is it possible to move beyond faith? the scriptures seem (to me at least) to suggest that faith isn't an end in itself, but a stepping stone to knowledge. i don't want to live out my days in hope and faith, but not really knowing. i want that knowledge. i want to know as sure as i know that i'm typing these words. how do we do that?

anyway, are these odd thoughts for a inactive sinner? the other day i hiked a mountain in utah. i was exhausted when i got to the top. i've been reading the old testament and i noted that many of the prophets would commune with god in high places when seeking him. so i though to do the same. at the top i found myself alone and there prayed along these lines. i came close to making a vow, but stopped short because i got scared. vows seem like very important things in the old testament. nevertheless, i did pray. once finished, i gathered some stones, just a few, and stacked them one upon another. i don't know why. just something i read in the bible which the prophets often did and not in the context of sacrifice.

is this odd? do i sound like i need a shrink more so that the gospel. i have no indications whatsoever.

It doesn't sound odd, all it really sounds like is that you really want the gospel back in your life and your willing to do whatever it takes. I'd say more than anything that's just a good step towards actually coming back.

I know what it's like to have a period in your life without the gospel, it's awful. I used to be so bitter and vengeful at everyone I knew, the spirit of contention resided within me and just made me hate everyone along with myself and who I was. At the same time, it made me desperate for change, wanting to have some peace back in my life, the comfort of the holy spirit. I'm still coming back myself, but it's a great feeling already.

Just keep up with your willingness and deeds to come back to church, and like you said, faith is an ever growing thing and it may start out very small and take some time to build up, but you just have to believe that it's there I guess.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I don't think it is possible to move beyond faith when participating in religion. If religious "truths" could be proven, it would not be a religion, but a science. The best you can do is gain a very high amount of faith...or if you are lucky, you may have a spiritual experience that increases your faith so much that you can refer to such faith as knowledge, which is a popular way of speaking among LDS.

But regardless of whether or not you choose to go back to the Church, it sounds like you need to find purpose to your life independent of the Church.

Some might disagree saying that there is no purpose to life without the Church.

I think it might be healthier to give yourself purpose outside the Church, and then, if you wish, give your life another purpose within the Church.

So in a way, you might have two purposes to your life, which might complement each other. One might be more important than the other. If they conflict, you would need to examine each one and decide which one is more important.

I don't know how to give you advice on finding purpose within the Church...that advice can only be found in scriptures, prayers, or maybe talking to people like family members or a Bishop.

But as far as finding meaning outside the Church...there are lots of ways.

Try keeping a journal. Write down everything you experience, no matter how trivial. You might be surprised what you learn about yourself.

Professional therapy (as you suggested already) can also help. I have been there, and it works.

Meditation is a great way to relax and calm your mind...clear it of all thoughts and expectations. You might realize that when you stop trying to find meaning, it will come to you. Just look up "mediation" at Amazon.com and you will find tons of books to help you learn how to do it.

I would also recommend some other books on the subject of discovering yourself, if you like to read...

The Artist's Way (by Julia Cameron)

"With the basic principle that creative expression is the natural direction of life, Julia Cameron and Mark Bryan lead you through a comprehensive twelve-week program to recover your creativity from a variety of blocks, including limiting beliefs, fear, self-sabotage, jealousy, guilt, addictions, and other inhibiting forces, replacing them with artistic confidence and productivity.

This book links creativity to spirituality by showing how to connect with the creative energies of the universe, and has, in the four years since its publication, spawned a remarkable number of support groups for artists dedicated to practicing the exercises it contains." - Amazon.com

That book refers to spirituality, but is "non-denominational". It can help you spiritually, regardless of whether you are Christian, Muslim, Jew, Taoist...etc...

While aimed at artists, it is for everyone...because everyone needs creativity to find meaning in their lives. I consider it much more of a self-help book than an artist's book.

Another book...same idea...

How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci: Seven Steps to Genius Every Day (by Michael J. Gelb)

Here's a personal growth guidebook that's won the admiration and recommendation of Ted Hughes, Poet Laureate of England. He calls this "a brilliant, practical guide to awakening and training our vast, unused resources of intelligence and ability." Author Michael Gelb, founder of High Performance Learning and consultant for companies including AT&T and National Public Radio, says that we all can unlock the "da Vincian" genius inside us. Gelb says there are seven critical principles that need to be followed for success, whether you're learning a new language, studying to be a gourmet chef, or just hoping to be more effective on the job:

- Curiosita: An insatiably curious approach to life.

- Dimonstratzione: A commitment to test knowledge through experience.

- Sensazione: The continual refinement of the senses, especially sight, as the means to clarify experience.

- Sfumato: A willingness to embrace ambiguity, paradox, and uncertainty.

- Arte/Scienza: The development of the balance between science and art, logic and imagination ("whole-brain thinking").

- Corporalita: The cultivation of ambidexterity, fitness, and poise.

- Connessione: A recognition and appreciation for the connectedness of all things and phenomena; "systems thinking."

Gelb discusses each of these principles in relation to what da Vinci accomplished, thereby giving this book a built-in history lesson. The illustrations from the master's work and time add a nice warmth to the work. As the president of NPR said after working with Gelb, this is a program recommended for "anyone who wants to experience a personal and professional Renaissance."

- Amazon.com

Again, this book helps you find your creative potential and discover direction in your life. It is also non-denominational...it makes a few references to religion, but they are generic and can be applied to any religion.

[StrawberryFields]

What a beautiful post and thank you for sharing it with us.

I believe in opposition in all things. I think you are doing fine Jack Vance; you have a hunger now for that which is good. I am a firm believer in the saying that goes..."When the student is ready, the teacher will appear". You my friend are ready and that is why you have these perfect opportunities come into your life like climbing the mountain and building a small alter. All I have to say is to go with it, and allow your faith to build just like what you did with the stones.

What you describe about falling away has happened to me a couple of times. I grew up on a less active home and was dropped off at church, not taken. I set some goals at a young age that lodged deep into my heart. I looked around at others at church, and I saw things which I wanted in my family when I grew up. I must say that I have made some very good choices and there are some things which are just out of my control. I still stumble today as I find myself being tested. I'm many ways I think of myself as a convert to the church because the gospel has not been something I was handed on a silver platter, I have had to work hard at keeping the faith. I know that discouragement is one of my worst enemies and when I fall it is usually discouragement that has taken me down.

I would encourage you to keep a journal of your feelings and refer back to this magical time. The gospel is a journey to me and as I have grown it the gospel I can fall back on those magical times when I need strength.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@May 26 2005, 03:38 PM

What a beautiful post and thank you for sharing it with us.

I believe in opposition in all things. I think you are doing fine Jack Vance; you have a hunger now for that which is good. I am a firm believer in the saying that goes..."When the student is ready, the teacher will appear". You my friend are ready and that is why you have these perfect opportunities come into your life like climbing the mountain and building a small alter. All I have to say is to go with it, and allow your faith to build just like what you did with the stones.

What you describe about falling away has happened to me a couple of times. I grew up on a less active home and was dropped off at church, not taken. I set some goals at a young age that lodged deep into my heart. I looked around at others at church, and I saw things which I wanted in my family when I grew up. I must say that I have made some very good choices and there are some things which are just out of my control. I still stumble today as I find myself being tested. I'm many ways I think of myself as a convert to the church because the gospel has not been something I was handed on a silver platter, I have had to work hard at keeping the faith. I know that discouragement is one of my worst enemies and when I fall it is usually discouragement that has taken me down.

I would encourage you to keep a journal of your feelings and refer back to this magical time. The gospel is a journey to me and as I have grown it the gospel I can fall back on those magical times when I need strength.

There have been some good advice offered but I would add two ideas.

First: You need to be concerned more with others and less with yourself. If you had climbed the mountain with some young men in your ward you would have learned that the view changes when the climb involves service.

Second: You need to discover covenant. Not just commitment - because covenant is way beyond commitment. Your word must be as solid as the mountain. Do not set out on a quest to see what will happen, become your quest. For example do not try a couple things to determine if G-d will give you something for doing it. Take on the greatest and most important task you know - put your life into it, love it, rejoice in it and when G-d blesses you thank him with all your heart.

Strange as it may seem good things happen (out of the worse things) along the way of a good traveler

The Traveler

[Guest lt]

Jack,

It is nice to see you back, I thought you had left.

I think you are on the right step forward.....I love everyones imput, all of these are wonderful........

I would also like to touch on what you said about a Vow......I know Vows-comminments-covenents etc........sound very strong and difficult, but once you put one foot in front of the other it becomes easier and easier. If you truly want to get back to the church, call your bishop and dicuss your feelings with him, maybe even ask if he is avaliable to go hiking with you to discuss your feelings. I'm sure your bishop has been wondering about you to, but he is probably worried about offending you or pushing you further away....just a thought and good luck. My prayers are with you.....

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Traveler+May 27 2005, 09:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ May 27 2005, 09:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Strawberry Fields@May 26 2005, 03:38 PM

What a beautiful post and thank you for sharing it with us.

I believe in opposition in all things. I think you are doing fine Jack Vance; you have a hunger now for that which is good. I am a firm believer in the saying that goes..."When the student is ready, the teacher will appear". You my friend are ready and that is why you have these perfect opportunities come into your life like climbing the mountain and building a small alter. All I have to say is to go with it, and allow your faith to build just like what you did with the stones.

What you describe about falling away has happened to me a couple of times. I grew up on a less active home and was dropped off at church, not taken. I set some goals at a young age that lodged deep into my heart. I looked around at others at church, and I saw things which I wanted in my family when I grew up. I must say that I have made some very good choices and there are some things which are just out of my control. I still stumble today as I find myself being tested. I'm many ways I think of myself as a convert to the church because the gospel has not been something I was handed on a silver platter, I have had to work hard at keeping the faith. I know that discouragement is one of my worst enemies and when I fall it is usually discouragement that has taken me down.

I would encourage you to keep a journal of your feelings and refer back to this magical time. The gospel is a journey to me and as I have grown it the gospel I can fall back on those magical times when I need strength.

There have been some good advice offered but I would add two ideas.

First: You need to be concerned more with others and less with yourself. If you had climbed the mountain with some young men in your ward you would have learned that the view changes when the climb involves service.

Second: You need to discover covenant. Not just commitment - because covenant is way beyond commitment. Your word must be as solid as the mountain. Do not set out on a quest to see what will happen, become your quest. For example do not try a couple things to determine if G-d will give you something for doing it. Take on the greatest and most important task you know - put your life into it, love it, rejoice in it and when G-d blesses you thank him with all your heart.

Strange as it may seem good things happen (out of the worse things) along the way of a good traveler

The Traveler

Traveler,

Was that to me or Jackvance?

[Lindy]

Jack~ I sent you a PM.... sometimes, I'm just better off the board than I am on it.

But it's always good to know that you have people who care about you, no matter what.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@May 27 2005, 02:28 PM

Strange as it may seem good things happen (out of the worse things) along the way of a good traveler

The Traveler

Traveler,

Was that to me or Jackvance?

I thought it was for Jack but if you like it you may use it also - although I thought this would be nothing more than a conformation to you.

The Traveler