Temple Lot

[ThunderFire]

Originally posted by Snow@Jun 8 2005, 08:13 PM

I am simply observing that your opinions are based on nothing other than the constructs of your own imagination - or better said, you offer no evidence or rationale to support your position other than you think your thoughts are good thoughts to think.

Yet is it my imagination that the Hedrickites own the temple lot and not one of the other factions?

[Snow]

Originally posted by ThunderFire+Jun 8 2005, 06:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ThunderFire @ Jun 8 2005, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Jun 8 2005, 08:13 PM

I am simply observing that your opinions are based on nothing other than the constructs of your own imagination - or better said, you offer no evidence or rationale to support your position other than you think your thoughts are good thoughts to think.

Yet is it my imagination that the Hedrickites own the temple lot and not one of the other factions?

That's a nonsensical question. It isn't your imagination that the Hedrickites own a very small fraction of the temple lot. That is a legal reality.

That God willed it so is, as you have presented it, nothing but a fancy in your mind; just as is your suppostion that humility is the pivotal requirment for temple building and that the Hedrikites are the ones that possess it to the exclusion of others.

One obvious thing to be said... If the Temple Lot folks are God's chosen church, then God is doing a miraculous job in keeping that good news from the the legions of humanity.

[begood2]

Originally posted by Snow@Jun 8 2005, 09:27 AM

...and I had a friend who told me that Brad Pitt was having an affair with Grace Kelly. My friend also had a dream that she went to school in her underwear and ate an apple made out of plastic.

Same deal, no?

Snow,

I checked on the internet and it said that Grace Kelly suffered a stroke while driving and died 9/13/82, but if your friend told you that about the affair ... then it must be true lol!

And for her to go to school in her underwear ... that must have been very embarrassing lol!

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 8 2005, 05:56 PM

Randy, is there something else we can talk about? This horse is just about dead.

Dawn,

Why is it a "dead horse" with me...but yet, you go on and talk about it more with Snow?? what's up with that?

But, you are right..I am beating that particular horse to death BECAUSE it lies at the core of the problem with the beginnings of the RLDS, Remnant and all the rest of the splinter groups.

They all began because the people that that eventually joined with them were either:

1) prideful...in that they simply could not follow the rightful leadership (we are seeing this yet again with the Remnant/Restorationists)

2) they were excommunicated members of the Church and they just gravitated to these new movements

3) they were disaffected members...in that they got they got their feelings hurt etc...and simply gravitated to these various movements

4) they were "inactive" members who really didnt care one way or other...but they knew they were not going to risk their lives going west...and they simply gravitated to these various movements.

Dawn, what is transpiring this very moment within the Restoration movement..ie; the PoZ calling this special "conference" to discuss the various "resolutions"...and how the Restoration branch movement is to go forward and proceed...given the CoC church's apostacy is "complete"....is what I am talking about!!

Yes..this IS something that needs to be talked about....and shown for what it is.

Dawn, just a quick question for you though.....on another board you made the comment that you "still" considered yourself a member of the CoC. Do you still hold to that...given your earlier comments that "if" Steve Veasey were confirmed..and the various callings that he put forward even before he had authority to do so, were also confirmed....that in your mind the apostacy would be complete?

Is the CoC church's apostacy complete? If so, why do you still maintain membership in it?

[Jenda]

First, you are wrong on most of your points. And second, is there any sense in removing my name? I attend (when I am able) and support a restoration branch which, in general, continues to carry the only authoritative priesthood left on earth presently.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 9 2005, 09:25 AM

First, you are wrong on most of your points. And second, is there any sense in removing my name? I attend (when I am able) and support a restoration branch which, in general, continues to carry the only authoritative priesthood left on earth presently.

Dawn,

Why would you want to be a member of an apostate church?

...It might be enlightening if you were to research the history of most of the people who made up the nucleous of the RLDS church....and you would find that I was correct in my characterizations.

Dawn....so...why do you feel it necessary to keep one foot in an apostate Church (CoC) and one foot in a Restoration branch? That kinda smacks of being a fence sitter...just waiting to see to which side the ball is going to drop, then you will make your "real" choice. Seems disengenious to me.

Again...in a post a while back...when I asked this same question of you...you balked...and said you would wait until you saw what happened at the conference. Well, you saw what happened at conference..yet you still persist in maintaining this connection with the CoC. It really makes no sense. I dont understand how you can rationalize such a position.

[Jenda]

Randy, your question does not make sense. ALL MEMBERS OF THE RESTORATION BRANCHES continue to maintain their membership in the CoC. There are very few who have removed their names from the rolls, comparatively. The fact that I publically (vocally) voice my beliefs and call those who have gone the way of the CoC to repentance, I believe, is good enough in God's eyes. Since you are not God, I don't really have to worry whether you think I am lukewarm or not.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 9 2005, 09:57 AM

Randy, your question does not make sense. ALL MEMBERS OF THE RESTORATION BRANCHES continue to maintain their membership in the CoC. There are very few who have removed their names from the rolls, comparatively. The fact that I publically (vocally) voice my beliefs and call those who have gone the way of the CoC to repentance, I believe, is good enough in God's eyes. Since you are not God, I don't really have to worry whether you think I am lukewarm or not.

Dawn,

Can you not see the insanity of this position? It makes absolutely zero sense!

I guess what you are saying is that those people who started the Reorganiztion were wrong in leaving The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints....they should have just stayed and toughed it out, until the Lord "set the church in order" again, regardless of all the alleged "apostate teachings/doctrines" being taught!

This situation today with the CoC and the Restoration branches is no different, but yet, for some reason the Restorationists are content to sit tight.

This is what absolutely drives me nuts about the Restorationists! They want to maintain a foot in every camp.

Dawn, I like and admire you very much. I just hate to see you on such a dead end merry-go-round....thats all.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 9 2005, 09:57 AM

Randy, your question does not make sense. ALL MEMBERS OF THE RESTORATION BRANCHES continue to maintain their membership in the CoC. There are very few who have removed their names from the rolls, comparatively. The fact that I publically (vocally) voice my beliefs and call those who have gone the way of the CoC to repentance, I believe, is good enough in God's eyes. Since you are not God, I don't really have to worry whether you think I am lukewarm or not.

Dawn,

You failed to answer my question though...."why and to what purpose does it serve...to maintain membership in a apostate church?

You have already stated that there is no "authoritative" PH in the CoC, it is only to be found within the Restoration branches.

[john doe]

And for her to go to school in her underwear ... that must have been very embarrassing

Uh, maybe I'm weird about this, but I thought it was normal for people to wear underwear to school. I insist that my children NOT go out of the house without underwear of some sort on, unless they are going swimming or some such activity. I can't remember a day when I went to school as a kid without underwear. But hey, I can see where it may not be fun to wear underwear if you lived somewhere that the weather was hot enough that underwear would be uncomfortable and decided to go raw once in a while.

I once had a missionary companion who thought that temple garments were "confining". He rarely wore underwear as a kid. Of course, he was a cowboy, so "riding bareback" was the norm for him. I never could understand that, as I grew up where it gets cold a lot, and coats (and other layers of clothing) were worn most of the year to prevent hypothermia.

[john doe]

Dawn,

You failed to answer my question though...."why and to what purpose does it serve...to maintain membership in a apostate church?

You have already stated that there is no "authoritative" PH in the CoC, it is only to be found within the Restoration branches.

Randy,

I think the same question could be asked of those who are disaffected for whatever reason from the LDS church. Personally, I don't really much care if someone who does not believe in a church anymore requests to have their name removed from their rolls. I think it is the responsibilty of the church involved to clean their own house, not the ex-believer. I don't think the the LDS church cares much when they baptize a new member, if that member's name still remains on another church's rolls. The main thing (to me) is where that person's allegiance lies. If they regularly attend my church, then they likely don't reguarly attend another church, especially if they have a calling which requires their time, in my church.

I'm reminded of the story of Alma the younger. He actually was working against the church and its members before he was struck down, but I don't think his father ever removed him from church membership. But I could be wrong on that one.

In my mind, if you strongly believe a church is wrong, and you stop attending that church, then if they still want to call you a member of their group , that really is their problem. The responsibility lies with them to be responsible for maintaining your status, not you. If you no longer want to be associated with them , then they should be the ones expunging the dead weight from their records, not the ex-member.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 8 2005, 04:56 PM

Randy, is there something else we can talk about?  This horse is just about dead.

Why do you suddenly want to stop beating this horse? Is it because you see that all churches are false except for the LDS? Is it because that dying horse is YOUR horse and if we keep "killing it" with truth you won't have a steed to take you further down the path you've chosen? Why is it the under dogs and "non-winners" always want to cut the game short?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Setheus+Jun 9 2005, 12:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Setheus @ Jun 9 2005, 12:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jun 8 2005, 04:56 PM

Randy, is there something else we can talk about?  This horse is just about dead.

Why do you suddenly want to stop beating this horse? Is it because you see that all churches are false except for the LDS? Is it because that dying horse is YOUR horse and if we keep "killing it" with truth you won't have a steed to take you further down the path you've chosen? Why is it the under dogs and "non-winners" always want to cut the game short?

No. It is because whipping a dead horse isn't going to accomplish anything. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum between Randy and myself on several forums now, and nothing changes. He thinks he can talk me into believing that the LDS church is true because of the problems within the RLDS church. That is so far from logical that it is not worth my time or effort to discuss it anymore.

If you and Randy want to discuss it, feel free.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jun 9 2005, 07:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jun 9 2005, 07:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Setheus@Jun 9 2005, 12:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jun 8 2005, 04:56 PM

Randy, is there something else we can talk about?  This horse is just about dead.

Why do you suddenly want to stop beating this horse? Is it because you see that all churches are false except for the LDS? Is it because that dying horse is YOUR horse and if we keep "killing it" with truth you won't have a steed to take you further down the path you've chosen? Why is it the under dogs and "non-winners" always want to cut the game short?

No. It is because whipping a dead horse isn't going to accomplish anything. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum between Randy and myself on several forums now, and nothing changes. He thinks he can talk me into believing that the LDS church is true because of the problems within the RLDS church. That is so far from logical that it is not worth my time or effort to discuss it anymore.

If you and Randy want to discuss it, feel free.

Dawn,

Where have I EVER said or implied that I could "talk you into" anything? Absolutely nothing could be further from the truth!!

What gets me though is that you can talk about this till the cows come home over on Center Place board...but for some reason you clam up over here.

Whether you like it or not Dawn...this issue is at the very core of the problems facing the restorationists. The PH in the Restorationist movement know, and have known...that they have an impossible task before them. They have a doctrinal dilemma that cannot be resolved. From what I am reading on the Center Place board...the futility of it all is becoming more and more apparent.

Like I have told you in the past...its when the Restorationists are pressed on this issue that we begin to start seeing responses like what you have just given. You are not alone. I have seen this countless times through the years.

I would like to just once....have someone give an answer from the scriptures on how the Restorationists are planning to move forward, and show from the scriptures and/or from Church history how they plan to reorganize....again. Not just the canned..."the Lord will set the church in order".

Dawn....it's not just "problems" within the RLDS church we are talking about. Good grief...the LDS church has problems.....problems that come with growth...problems with divorce....problems with inactivity/retention....we have all sorts of problems.

The "problems" within the RLDS/CoC go way beyond being just "problems". You are very much minimizing what is happening...or in this case...what "cannot" happen.

What cannot happen is the Restorationist's effecting any kind of "re-reorganization". It just cannot be done...at least doctrinally. There is no historical precedent for this...INCLUDING the original "reorganization" in 1851-1860. There is no comparison between the two.

But, you are right about one thing....it is sickening to watch. I have good friends who are just sick to their stomachs over this. They are good and honorable people....but, they just keep treading water...thats it. Just marking time. It is very sad indeed.

[Jenda]

Randy, I haven't posted on Centerplace for a very long time now (well, except to ask for information about something). And when I did, I did so for a few days and my level of interest dropped off because it got to be rehashing of the same thing after a certain number of posts. I get tired of the same old arguments. Pick a new one and I discuss it with you. But you know, discussion is a two-way street. You ignore 90% of what I say (and it is usually the important part), and focus on something that has no bearing on anything.

What difference does it make if I leave my name on the rolls as long as I espouse correct doctrine?

What difference does it make whether 1/2 or 3/4 or 9/10 of the people went west with BY if that faction was not embracing correct doctrine?

What difference does it make if the restoration branches organize as long as they are embracing correct doctrine?

Do you see where I am going? It is the correct doctrine that is most important, not all this other fluff.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 10 2005, 11:46 AM

Randy, I haven't posted on Centerplace for a very long time now (well, except to ask for information about something). And when I did, I did so for a few days and my level of interest dropped off because it got to be rehashing of the same thing after a certain number of posts. I get tired of the same old arguments. Pick a new one and I discuss it with you. But you know, discussion is a two-way street. You ignore 90% of what I say (and it is usually the important part), and focus on something that has no bearing on anything.

What difference does it make if I leave my name on the rolls as long as I espouse correct doctrine?

What difference does it make whether 1/2 or 3/4 or 9/10 of the people went west with BY if that faction was not embracing correct doctrine?

What difference does it make if the restoration branches organize as long as they are embracing correct doctrine?

Do you see where I am going? It is the correct doctrine that is most important, not all this other fluff.

Dawn,

Fluff???? Good nite girl!!!!!

Ok....some thoughts:

1) You are absolutely correct when you state that we must embrace "correct doctrine"

2) Why does it matter that you leave your name on the rolls of an apostate church?

a) it seems to me that answer should be obvious. The RLDS church that you want so desperately to maintain a connection with simply does NOT exist anymore. If you think it does you are in denial. The CoC is NOT the RLDS church. You cannot serve two masters.

I guess the real question might be...."why are you so fearful of removing your name from the CoC church"? What is the real motivation behind you maintaining a token membership? There must some "payoff"...I am curious as to what it is.

3) While I agree that when it comes to determining the veracity and truthfulness of spiritual things....simply because a majority believes a certain doctrine to be true..doesnt make it true. I agree with you on that point.

Having said that....the fact that the vast majority went west underscores several things...namely:

a) That the majority of the saints were in agreement doctrinally...which tells me that they were taught openly and in plainness.

B) That the vast majority of the Saints were in agreement with the duly acknowledged and recognized leadership of the church....in spite of the various "would be leaders" who rose up.

c) That those "numbers" represented real people...many of which gave their lives for this restored gospel...and that thousands were willing..because of their testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel which they embraced...to literally sacrifice everything they had.

d) Contrast those "numbers aka real people" that went west...with those that stayed behind, excepting very few, those people were weak in the faith as demonstrated by their very actions. They were literally tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. This was the nucleous of the Reorganization. That same mindset still prevails to this day. Hence, the RLDS/CoC/Restorationists having the various dilemma's...and things being in a constant state of chaos.

4) What difference does it make if the Restoration Branches organize....? It makes a difference because they "cannot" organize! Hence, they are not embracing correct doctrine. It has been embracing false doctrine that has brought them and the CoC...and the Remnant church to where they are today...which is to say...the exact same place they have been since 1851. Thats no exaggeration either.

Dawn...when you say it's just "fluff"...really, with all due respect...that's just "smoke and mirrors" rhetoric to avoid having to come to terms with the reality of the situation.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson@Jun 10 2005, 11:22 AM

Dawn...when you say it's just "fluff"...really, with all due respect...that's just "smoke and mirrors" rhetoric to avoid having to come to terms with the reality of the situation.

Randy, with all due respect, you cannot imagine what I have been through in the last 5 years. And while I feel, quite literally, that the floor has been pulled out from underneath me, I can honestly say I see God's hand in it. Growth is often painful, and this is right up there in the pain dept. And for a long time I was unable to see past that pain to the bigger picture. But now I can. I see things much more clearly now than I ever did in the past. I see how things are fitting together. In minute detail? No, but in the way I see God leading the people. We are sitting, I believe, on the very cusp of Zion, and God is calling His army forth. I can see and feel the power that is forming. And you know what, 5 years ago I would have been surprised who is in that army, but now I see that it is bigger and stronger than I could have imagined then.

I am glad God has led me to this point. I wish you could join me here so you can see the glory of His work, too.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jun 10 2005, 12:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jun 10 2005, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Jun 10 2005, 11:22 AM

Dawn...when you say it's just "fluff"...really, with all due respect...that's just "smoke and mirrors" rhetoric to avoid having to come to terms with the reality of the situation.

Randy, with all due respect, you cannot imagine what I have been through in the last 5 years. And while I feel, quite literally, that the floor has been pulled out from underneath me, I can honestly say I see God's hand in it. Growth is often painful, and this is right up there in the pain dept. And for a long time I was unable to see past that pain to the bigger picture. But now I can. I see things much more clearly now than I ever did in the past. I see how things are fitting together. In minute detail? No, but in the way I see God leading the people. We are sitting, I believe, on the very cusp of Zion, and God is calling His army forth. I can see and feel the power that is forming. And you know what, 5 years ago I would have been surprised who is in that army, but now I see that it is bigger and stronger than I could have imagined then.

I am glad God has led me to this point. I wish you could join me here so you can see the glory of His work, too.

Dawn,

Can you share some of the things that you see more clearly?

Can you share how things are fitting together?

Dawn....you say the Restorationists are sitting on the very "cusp" of Zion. Explain if you can what you are seeing or experiencing that would have you think that, speaking relative to the "whole" of the Restoration branch movement.

From what I am reading...I see just the opposite.

Dawn...I appreciate your sincere offer to join with you. Let me ask you a question.....what is it that you have that I dont already have....or what you are experiencing that I have not already experienced?

I guess...what I am asking is..."what does the Restoration movement have to offer me?

[Setheus]

I think the fact that the women hold the "priesthood" is proof that the other sects are false.

I think it degrades the importance of the role God gave to women. What? your assignment isn't good enough? God robbed you or is partial to His sons? Come on! Get real.

Why don't men just start having babies. We can do it! Its not just a woman's gift from God. We want it too! (just an example I don't want to be pregnant! )

But think about it. What if you had to share "motherhood" with your husband? Its the same thing as both parents holding the

priesthood. God gave it to men.

But you believe what you like. Run with it. Read my signiture.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jun 10 2005, 03:41 PM

I think the fact that the women hold the "priesthood" is proof that the other sects are false.

I think it degrades the importance of the role God gave to women. What? your assignment isn't good enough? God robbed you or is partial to His sons? Come on! Get real.

Why don't men just start having babies. We can do it! Its not just a woman's gift from God. We want it too! (just an example I don't want to be pregnant! )

But think about it. What if you had to share "motherhood" with your husband? Its the same thing as both parents holding the

priesthood. God gave it to men.

But you believe what you like. Run with it. Read my signiture.

Who is it you are speaking to here? Nobody here, that I know of, believes in women in the priesthood.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Randy Johnson+Jun 10 2005, 02:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Randy Johnson @ Jun 10 2005, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jun 10 2005, 12:33 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Randy Johnson@Jun 10 2005, 11:22 AM

Dawn...when you say it's just "fluff"...really, with all due respect...that's just "smoke and mirrors" rhetoric to avoid having to come to terms with the reality of the situation.

Randy, with all due respect, you cannot imagine what I have been through in the last 5 years. And while I feel, quite literally, that the floor has been pulled out from underneath me, I can honestly say I see God's hand in it. Growth is often painful, and this is right up there in the pain dept. And for a long time I was unable to see past that pain to the bigger picture. But now I can. I see things much more clearly now than I ever did in the past. I see how things are fitting together. In minute detail? No, but in the way I see God leading the people. We are sitting, I believe, on the very cusp of Zion, and God is calling His army forth. I can see and feel the power that is forming. And you know what, 5 years ago I would have been surprised who is in that army, but now I see that it is bigger and stronger than I could have imagined then.

I am glad God has led me to this point. I wish you could join me here so you can see the glory of His work, too.

Dawn,

Can you share some of the things that you see more clearly?

Can you share how things are fitting together?

Dawn....you say the Restorationists are sitting on the very "cusp" of Zion. Explain if you can what you are seeing or experiencing that would have you think that, speaking relative to the "whole" of the Restoration branch movement.

From what I am reading...I see just the opposite.

Dawn...I appreciate your sincere offer to join with you. Let me ask you a question.....what is it that you have that I dont already have....or what you are experiencing that I have not already experienced?

I guess...what I am asking is..."what does the Restoration movement have to offer me?

You've actually "read into" my post things that weren't there.

I did not say that the restorationists are sitting on the cusp of Zion. I said "we". Zion is for everyone. The "we" is Christ's church. And who is the church? DC 3:16a RLDS Behold, this is my doctrine: Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church;

The (small c) church is not an organization. It is those who have heard God's call and responded. Some might be LDS, some might be RLDS. Some might be Catholic, some might be Protestant. That is the "we".

Organized religion is corrupt. God's kingdom will be brought forth by a grass-roots movement within the church (those who have felt the call of Zion and know it's cause) as well as those without the church who have heard God's call and who seek to do His will, even when they don't know where it will take them. "We" are all in it together. "We" are all important to the building of the kingdom, and without each one, the kingdom cannot be fully established.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 10 2005, 04:45 PM

Organized religion is corrupt. God's kingdom will be brought forth by a grass-roots movement within the church (those who have felt the call of Zion and know it's cause) as well as those without the church who have heard God's call and who seek to do His will, even when they don't know where it will take them.

That just sounds like adopting an doctrinal position in order to justify a sorry state of affairs.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Snow+Jun 10 2005, 07:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jun 10 2005, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jun 10 2005, 04:45 PM

Organized religion is corrupt.  God's kingdom will be brought forth by a grass-roots movement within the church (those who have felt the call of Zion and know it's cause) as well as those without the church who have heard God's call and who seek to do His will, even when they don't know where it will take them.

That just sounds like adopting an doctrinal position in order to justify a sorry state of affairs.

Whatever.

[Setheus]

I love it! Every time you get put on your place you give "enlightened" answers such as "Whatever" or "I didn't mean THAT...I meant THIS" or "Lets stop beating on my dead horse"

So when God told Joseph Smith that he would usher in the last dispensation what God really meant was it will all go corrupt and some grass roots movement will usher in my kingdom. ???

So much for God's house being in some kind of order. After all how many grass roots efforts are organized on a grand scale? And all "grass roots" means is it will be a bunch of people who have simular views and ideas. Hmmmm sounds like organized religion to me.

I already have a name for it.

The Grass Roots Church of Organized Chaos of Latter Day Yokals.

[Jenda]

Put on my place???

Sorry. Nobody has put me on my place. Especially not Snow with his pithy one-liners.