Signs of the Times - A List

[deseretgov]

One interpretation I've heard is that they wont neccesarily be preaching but will be holding back the invading army. But from what I've read it seems more to me that they will be preaching in an already occupied Jerusalem.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Well considering that LDS missionaries won't be proselyting in Jerusalem anytime soon, I guess we can assume this won't be happening in the near future.

Although, I'd wager that this prophecy could be easily fulfilled at least in part, if two LDS apostles were to go tracting in some areas of Jerusalem today. LOL

I'm sorry if I missed this earlier but who/where does it say that they will be LDS Apostles? Who's even to say that they'll be LDS at all? If I recall my scripture references correctly, the most likely scenario is that they'll be native Israelis and then most likely Jewish.

[ruthiechan]

I'm sorry if I missed this earlier but who/where does it say that they will be LDS Apostles? Who's even to say that they'll be LDS at all? If I recall my scripture references correctly, the most likely scenario is that they'll be native Israelis and then most likely Jewish.

What if they're Israeli LDS apostles?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

What if they're Israeli LDS apostles?

Anything's possible, that's exactly my point. The Lord has raised up prophets among other nations and other peoples and even other "churches", so why do we assume the two prophets in Jerusalem are going to be LDS?

[Hemidakota]

Well, we do know by John's Revelation, Israel, what is left at the very end will be saved by the Lord; after the fact and not before the two, who are LDS, will give up there lives for Him.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Revelation 11

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.   4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.   5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.   6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.   7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.   8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.   9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.   10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.   11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.   12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Zechariah 4

11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?   12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?   13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.   14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

2 Nephi 8

17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury—thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling wrung out—   18 And none to guide her among all the sons she hath brought forth; neither that taketh her by the hand, of all the sons she hath brought up.   19 These two sons are come unto thee, who shall be sorry for thee—thy desolation and destruction, and the famine and the sword—and by whom shall I comfort thee?   20 Thy sons have fainted, save these two; they lie at the head of all the streets; as a wild bull in a net, they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.

Doctrine and Covenants 77

15 Q. What is to be understood by the two witnesses, in the eleventh chapter of Revelation?  A. They are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days, at the time of the restoration, and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

I see nothing in these verses that says that these witnesses will be LDS. The phrase "Raised up to the Jewish nation" implies to me that they will be born and raised there and fore-ordained to this calling only - so not an apostle pulling "double duty".

There's also a lot of symbolism in terms of the olive tree references which suggest a direct relationship to the house of israel. The candliestick references imply a relationship to "the true source of spiritual light" (13 - Exodus 25 - 30 ; 35 - 40 - The House of the Lord in the Wilderness). The oil would symbolize the Holy Ghost and thus suggests the outpouring of the Spirit from these two prophets; likewise the olive branches would symbolize the source of that outpouring. Pretty cool stuff, but nothing conclusive regarding whether they'll be LDS or not.

Finally, the Institute manual for the New Testament says this regarding the witnesses:

55 - "The Kingdoms of This World are Become the Kingdoms of Our Lord""The Kingdoms of This World are Becom the Kingdoms of Our Lord"

“Suffice it to say, the Jews gather home, and rebuild Jerusalem. The nations gather against them in battle. Their armies encompass the city, and have more or less power over it for three years and a half. A couple of [B]Jewish[/B] prophets, by their mighty miracles, keep them from utterly over-coming the Jews; until at length they are slain, and the city is left in a great measure to the mercy of their enemies for three days and a half. The two prophets then rise from the dead and ascend up into heaven. The Messiah comes, convulses the earth, overthrows the army of the Gentiles, delivers the Jews, cleanses Jerusalem, cuts off all wickedness from the earth, raises the Saints from the dead, brings them with him, and commences his reign of a thousand years; during which time his Spirit will be poured out upon flesh; men and beasts, birds and serpents, will be perfectly harmless, and peace and the knowledge and glory of God shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea; and the kingdom and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the saints of the Most High.” (Pratt, A Voice of Warning and Instruction to All People, pp. 49–50.) 

:)

[Hemidakota]

Wow! Allot of references but failed to read earlier statements to end this point.

I you had read the previous pages or other posting of the same question, I can attest to you from the desk of President Spencer W. Kimball, they are LDS. Now, if you like, you can argue with the Savior and the late prophet over these matters...

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Wow! Allot of references but failed to read earlier statements to end this point.

I you had read the previous pages or other posting of the same question, I can attest to you from the desk of President Spencer W. Kimball, they are LDS. Now, if you like, you can argue with the Savior and the late prophet over these matters...

The last time I asked for you to reference that assertion: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/23678-signs-times-list-5.html#post395922

The post in this thread that started this discussion: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/23678-signs-times-list-2.html#post394357

I just read over the entire thread again and except for my last post, NOBODY has posted any references to support the claim that the witnesses are LDS.

Now, I have presented references - including a church authorized First Pesidency approved publication that specifically states that they are JEWISH (the Institute manual). If you want to discuss this topic further, please provide references for your assertions. That means hyperlinks to First Presidency approved articles and resources which directly support your claim.

[deseretgov]

Of course Raised up to the Jewish nation could be interpreted that these two witnesses wherever they are from were raised to to go unto the Jewish nation. Now if it said Raised up IN the Jewish nation then it would be a bit different. But it's not like I'm going to leave the church if the two witnesses are Jewish. The important thing is that there will be two witnesses.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

It always helps when the scriptures give us a cool timeline :)

Palmoni Scrolls

[ryanh]

The book: 50 Signs of the Times and the Second Coming was suggested to me as a book to read. I have not yet read it, but thought it might be of interest to those following this thread.

[dnc76v22]

Signs of WHAT times?

Time is relative.