Denouncing baptism

[Maxel]

From a psychological standpoint, atheism is nothing but an attempt to find public approval and support (among like-minded individuals) for one's choice to deny the existence of and exclude God from one's life and reference. It is sort of a communal effort and statement of affirmation in-unison rejection of deity. The bottom line is that God interferes with some human's social agendas. For some, God's life plan and road map for us is too restrictive and limiting.

The decision to utterly reject deity is fraught with such internal conflict and turmoil, the subconscious tension and anxiety it generates is such that some individuals spend enormous amounts of time, energy, money and resources in these cathartic "excision" rituals. (e.g "de-baptizing", protesting against religion, arguing in religious boards) The philosophical jundra is just window dressing/explanation for the decision.

Let's look at it this way: if they are right and there is no God I'd still be OK and would have lived a, nice quiet and happy life with my wife and family. And they would have spent an extraordinary amount of time and energy fighting for nothing and arguing a complete intangible. But, if they are wrong, I would not want to be in their skin at the last day.

My thoughts exactly. Those who have once believed and are fighting against the idea of a God with eternal principles can't just sit back and live a life wholly seperate from religion- they have to actively fight against it to ease their consciences, if only for a time.

I was reading the story of Korihor in the BoM last night- I don't think this is too different from his actions.

[Islander]

I think that depends on what "version" of God your speaking of. The extreme Traditional "Hellfire" christian God yes.

But in the LDS Judged according to knowledge an Atheist who keeps the 10 commandments because they are good advice, is better off then a Christian who keeps them they "have to".

IMHO.

I would have to disagree with you my friend. The "outward performances" are meaningless when willfully rejecting God and the salvation in Christ. It is a mildly interesting philosophical argument but it does not hold water. Openly and willfully rejecting the will and commandments of God in favor of one's own "brand of righteousness" amounts to rebellion. There is no godliness or righteousness without repentance, a true broken heart and contrite spirit. Christ came to fulfill all the ends of the law. There is no salvation away or separate from Him.

An aborigine in the Amazon that has never heard of of the God of Israel and the Christ has all opportunity to enter into the kingdom of God. In the other hand, atheists have none.

[prospectmom]

I'm sorry don't athiests have the oppertunity like all of us to mabey change their mind????? and there is still hope if not in this world then the next????

[Guest Godless]

From a psychological standpoint, atheism is nothing but an attempt to find public approval and support (among like-minded individuals) for one's choice to deny the existence of and exclude God from one's life and reference. It is sort of a communal effort and statement of affirmation in-unison rejection of deity. The bottom line is that God interferes with some human's social agendas. For some, God's life plan and road map for us is too restrictive and limiting.

I agree to a certain extent. As a result of people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, atheism has recently become sort of a trend among young dissidents. They're turning atheism into a movement rather than a worldview, and I'm not so sure that I like that. A lot of these upstarts are pretty dumb as well. Just the other day I had to team up with a few fellow atheists on another discussion forum and try to convince a recent self-proclaimed deconvert that rejecting his religious upbringing based solely on the movie Zeitgeist is a very bad idea.

All that considered though, I still think it's safe to say that most atheists are either quiet deconverts like myself or people who were never taught to believe in God by their parents. The quiet deconverts go through an initial phase of rejection of God that's usually followed by the more simple non-acknowledgment of God that lifelong atheists tend to adhere to (how can you reject something that you were never forced to believe in?).

[Islander]

I agree to a certain extent. As a result of people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, atheism has recently become sort of a trend among young dissidents. They're turning atheism into a movement rather than a worldview, and I'm not so sure that I like that. A lot of these upstarts are pretty dumb as well. Just the other day I had to team up with a few fellow atheists on another discussion forum and try to convince a recent self-proclaimed deconvert that rejecting his religious upbringing based solely on the movie Zeitgeist is a very bad idea.

All that considered though, I still think it's safe to say that most atheists are either quiet deconverts like myself or people who were never taught to believe in God by their parents. The quiet deconverts go through an initial phase of rejection of God that's usually followed by the more simple non-acknowledgment of God that lifelong atheists tend to adhere to (how can you reject something that you were never forced to believe in?).

Well, to judge by the time you spend on those forums and in this one, in particular, I think that validates my point.

[James_Fryman]

?????????????????????????????????????huh?????????????????????????????????????????? That was so stupid!!!!

[Guest Godless]

Well, to judge by the time you spend on those forums and in this one, in particular, I think that validates my point.

I think you're misunderstanding my reasons for posting on sites like this one. I enjoy healthy discussion, not because I want to sway you from your faith or attack your beliefs, but because it's a good opportunity to interact with people with different views. I've learned a great deal about other religions by posting on religious sites. And I like to think that I've been able to break down some of the stigmas that theists tend to place on atheists. For me, posting on a religious site as an atheist is no different from a liberal posting on conservative sites in search of political discussions.

Sure, there are those who like to attack and criticize all the time, but what about the majority of people who don't? There are plenty reasonable, civil, and level-headed people from all religious, social, and political demographics posting on the internet. I don't see how my posting here indicates a rejection complex. On the contrary, I think I'd be more inclined to post on atheist forums if I fit the psychological mold that you described.

[hordak]

I would have to disagree with you my friend. The "outward performances" are meaningless when willfully rejecting God and the salvation in Christ. It is a mildly interesting philosophical argument but it does not hold water. Openly and willfully rejecting the will and commandments of God in favor of one's own "brand of righteousness" amounts to rebellion. There is no godliness or righteousness without repentance, a true broken heart and contrite spirit. Christ came to fulfill all the ends of the law. There is no salvation away or separate from Him.

An aborigine in the Amazon that has never heard of of the God of Israel and the Christ has all opportunity to enter into the kingdom of God. In the other hand, atheists have none.

I'm not speaking of "rejecting the commandments of God" I'm speaking of those who keep the comandments for the sake of of the good they do, when comparied with those who do them for the exspectation of reward or fear of punishment.

As a father I am more impressed when my son cleans his room because it needs to be done then by my daughter who does it because, she wants to earn candy.

And as prospectmom put it

"I'm sorry don't athiests have the oppertunity like all of us to mabey change their mind????? and there is still hope if not in this world then the next????"

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

Atheist have no knowledge of God(Don't believe). As a believer it is easy to say they are openingly rejecting what you know to be true however because your on one side of the equation your not qualified to jump to that conclusion. IMO

It would be no different then a Muslim or Wiccan accusing you of rejecting Allah or the Great horned god and Goddesses when in fact your can't reject them.You don't believe in them.

[blusun7]

i just think it is silly especially the hairdryer part.

Everyone is entitle to what they believe but at some point who says no?

I dont agree with this but there is nothing i can do but to say just that.

[ADoyle90815]

I think the hair dryer thing is a bit silly, as if someone doesn't believe in the validity of their baptism, it doesn't mean anything anymore.

[Elgama]

yeah but a lot of things we do as LDS seem silly to people of other beliefs and faiths doesn't make what we do invalid or unimportant.

To the people unbaptising not sure its even a big deal from an LDS point of view, we only view our own baptism as valid anyway, so unbaptism is no more invalid/wrong/different or bizarre than any other religious intiation rite. And maybe its cathartic for them

What matters is it doesn't harm anyone, doesn't upset any great eternal principle and is no weirder in appearance to say wearing sacred underwear, going to a temple, having a priesthood blessing, avidly doing your family history, being baptised for the dead etc. Its only weird because you are an outsider looking in.

I am a firm believer as long as it does no harm to another then if its important to someone it isn't silly and its rude and intolerant to call it silly, its as offensive as someone laughing at us for things we hold dear

-Charley

Edited July 24, 2009 by Elgama

[Maxel]

I'm not speaking of "rejecting the commandments of God" I'm speaking of those who keep the comandments for the sake of of the good they do, when comparied with those who do them for the exspectation of reward or fear of punishment.

As a father I am more impressed when my son cleans his room because it needs to be done then by my daughter who does it because, she wants to earn candy.

Comparing the best of one group with the worst of another isn't an honest comparison. There are plenty of atheists who do a great deal of sinning and flout and mock the Christian religion- this entire unbaptism is one of those ways to mock the religion and Christ's atonement. Whether they fully realise what they're doing or not, it amounts to open rebellion, and while the eternal punishment won't be as harsh as against someone who fully knew what they were doing, a punishment must be dealt- despite the fact that it's covered by the Atonement.

Atheist have no knowledge of God(Don't believe).

Knowledge doesn't equal belief. A fair amount of those being unbaptised are doing so to counteract a baptism into a Christian religion- it would follow that most (if not all) of those being unbaptised have at least a fundamental knowledge of what Christ's atonement means.

Whether they would have not been unbaptised if they knew the whole truth or not is irrelevant- they openly rebel against God, and they will have to repent for it.

It would be no different then a Muslim or Wiccan accusing you of rejecting Allah or the Great horned god and Goddesses when in fact your can't reject them.You don't believe in them.

Not believing in something once you hear about it is rejecting it. You don't have to believe in (or once have believed in) something to reject it. I reject the Wiccan gods because they are not real. Edited July 24, 2009 by Maxel

[LDSVALLEY]

LET THEM HAVE AT IT.

If you choose not to believe in God, then a baptism done earlier in life means nothing, so if they want to waste their time pretending to get something they don't believe in undone why not.

Hopefully the contact their originating church and get it undone for real as well. I know our clerk would love a few dozen less names on the Ward List!

What always amazes me is the number of people who state they don't believe in God or say they don't believe in the church, don't want member contact yet won't have their names removed from the records!

[Elgama]

Comparing the best of one group with the worst of another isn't an honest comparison. There are plenty of atheists who do a great deal of sinning and flout and mock the Christian religion- this entire unbaptism is one of those ways to mock the religion and Christ's atonement. Whether they fully realise what they're doing or not, it amounts to open rebellion, and while the eternal punishment won't be as harsh as against someone who fully knew what they were doing, a punishment must be dealt- despite the fact that it's covered by the Atonement.

There are plenty of Christian's who profess to be Christian who make a far bigger mockery of the atonement - and surely a standard mainstream Christian baptism is more a mockery being invalid but done in Christ;s name. And for many the rebellion is against the church they have left not Christ - its to mark a new way of life. It is not hypocritical to leave Christianity behind it is to stay and be unrepentant. Plus I am a Latter Day Saint really does it matter if someone is an Evangelical Christian or an Atheist? neither are on the right path, and both can be bad or good and equally close to the true depiction of Christ or far away. And like has been stated in posts before either can repent and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and a true baptism in this life or during the spirit world. I have met atheists with Christ in their countenance they maiy never have met him, but the love and dedication to his Children they show in this life show they know him better than many Christians

Knowledge doesn't equal belief. A fair amount of those being unbaptised are doing so to counteract a baptism into a Christian religion- it would follow that most (if not all) of those being unbaptised have at least a fundamental knowledge of what Christ's atonement means.

Only LDS have a true understanding of the atonement and within that we have people in the church who have no testimony so whist they know the words lack faith and understanding. They are not rejecting light they have received

Not believing in something once you hear about it is rejecting it. You don't have to believe in (or once have believed in) something to reject it. I reject the Wiccan gods because they are not real.

???/ why is a Wiccan god or goddess any less real than the false depiction from most of Christianity? Anyone who has a sincere heart can receive promptings and answers to prayers - even atheists. Just not sure how an atheist is anymore wrong than anyone else who is not a Latter Day Saint? or for that matter a Latter Day Saint not striving to live the commandments?

-Charley

Edited July 25, 2009 by Elgama

[Carl62]

I know our clerk would love a few dozen less names on the Ward List!

What always amazes me is the number of people who state they don't believe in God or say they don't believe in the church, don't want member contact yet won't have their names removed from the records!

Wow! Is that the Christ-like attitude to have? What if even just one of those members wanted to come back into church the next week, or even the next year, and start turning their life around? Should we be that quick to remove their names from the records on account of them maybe going through a period of unbelief or questioning of which they could very possibly repent of? What or who is it hurting to keep their names on the membership records?

Edited July 25, 2009 by Carl62

[LDSVALLEY]

Wow! Is that the Christ-like attitude to have? What if even just one of those members wanted to come back into church the next week, or even the next year, and start turning their life around? Should we be that quick to remove their names from the records on account of them maybe going through a period of unbelief or questioning of which they could very possibly repent of? What or who is it hurting to keep their names on the membership records?

I don't think it should be quick. My point is there are members who have been on the list for years. They get angry when members or the Missionaries visit with them once every year or so just to keep records up to date. They state they 1) Don't believe in God. or 2) Don't believe in the church or 3) Have joined another church. And they have said they don't want to belong anymore but will not do what needs to be done to have the name removed.

I work very hard with less actives to try and bring them back and our Ward has been blessed with many who do return. I don't think it is the first thing that should happen. And I don't think the Ward Leadership should have them removed except for #3 which requires a hearing.

We have had members who have had their names removed from the church. We even had a couple of them come back years later. They apply to have the membership reinstated. Two months later it happened. So you can have them removed and if a change of heart occurs get it reinstated. But why continue with a lie, how does that help eternal progression.

The last thing I like to see is a swearing, drunk, smoking "Mormon" who tells the world they are Mormon while telling them they hate God. The day after I was baptized I mentioned it at work and the newest salesman took is smoke out of his mouth took a big swig of coffee and said could for you so am I. Guess how seriously I took the WOW for the next few months, which is my fault not his of course.

Personally I think it does more harm to someone who is far gone to leave them on the records. Satan will keep after them more. I believe it damages their soul, increases guilt all of which reduce the chance of coming back. I would rather see someone after two years of not wanting ANY contact to request to be removed as a member of the church. I honestly thing they stand more chance of coming back that way. But realize we are talking about ones who have been gone a long time and are firm in their desire to not have anything to do with the church.

[Maxel]

It's important for us to understand: we ought not to judge the actions of those being 'un-baptised' against any hypocritical actions done by others (be they non-LDS Christian, LDS, Buddhist, or whatever). We learn the most when we compare the problems set before us against the pure light of what we know to be true, not against the darkness of what we know to be wrong. Therefore, I contend that it is intellectually and spiritually foolhardy to compare the best of one group (for example, atheists with "christ in their countenance") to the worst of another (hypocritical Christians or Mormons).

We should not be caught in the trap of excusing the act for the sake of the sinner (that is God's right, not ours); we must compare instead the nature of the rites preformed, and the intended purpose of those rites. When that is done, we see that the Christian rite- baptism- is a symbol of dedication and servitude to a perfect and all-powerful master, while the atheistic rite- un-baptism- is meant to mock the Christian rite of baptism and reject the Christian faith for the sake of "reason".

When we compare the rites themselves (and only the rites), it is painfully obvious which is condemnable in the eyes of God and which isn't.

there are plenty of christian's who profess to be christian who make a far bigger mockery of the atonement - and surely a standard mainstream christian baptism is more a mockery being invalid but done in christ;s name.

In some cases, I would agree. However, I believe there are many Christians and Christian denominations that don't understand that baptism must be performed by the proper authority (or if they do, they don't understand which authority that is). We can assume, then, that enough Christians of other denominations are not intentionally making a mockery of the Atonement or baptism by being baptised without the right authority- in fact, it may be convincingly argued that many Christians are acting in a very Christ-like manner by trying to take the name of Christ upon themselves in the best way they know how.

And for many the rebellion is against the church they have left not christ - its to mark a new way of life.

Are you speaking about the un-baptism? Could you link a source that claims that those being un-baptised are rebelling solely against their church and not Christ?

It is not hypocritical to leave christianity behind it is to stay and be unrepentant.

The first option isn't hypocritical, you're right. However, the latter option still isn't "right"- and the lesser of two wrongs is still wrong. We ought not to worry about which option is not-as-right, and focus on how each option compares to the right way of doing things.

Plus i am a latter day saint really does it matter if someone is an evangelical christian or an atheist? Neither are on the right path, and both can be bad or good and equally close to the true depiction of christ or far away.

I agree, but the first (evangelical Christian) believes in God and the latter (atheist) doesn't. We know that a belief in God is a fundamental requirement to grow in faith and righteousness; therefore (philosophically) any sect of Christianity is closer to the truth than atheism. However, this is a difficult area to discuss, and a religion may be philisophically close to the truth and still repugnant to God.

And like has been stated in posts before either can repent and receive the gift of the holy ghost and a true baptism in this life or during the spirit world.

I agree. However, this truth has no bearing on the matter at hand: that un-baptism is a willful act of rebellion against God.

I have met atheists with christ in their countenance they maiy never have met him, but the love and dedication to his children they show in this life show they know him better than many christians

This falls into the "comparing the best of one category against the worst of another" fallacy.

only lds have a true understanding of the atonement and within that we have people in the church who have no testimony so whist they know the words lack faith and understanding. They are not rejecting light they have received

If someone is taught a basic truth- that God exists, and Christ wrought an atonement for mankind because man is in a fallen state- then (s)he rejects that truth for a falsehood (there is no God, Christ, or atonement) that person is, by definition, rejecting the light (s)he received. Why a person doesn't believe in the truth anymore (social pressure, personal unrighteousness, bad experiences with their church, etc.) or whether a person will later repent and return to the truth of God's word isn't relevant to what we're talking about- that being un-baptised is a rejection of, and an act of rebellion against, God.

Not believing in something once you hear about it is rejecting it. You don't have to believe in (or once have believed in) something to reject it. I reject the Wiccan gods because they are not real.

???/ why is a wiccan god or goddess any less real than the false depiction from most of christianity?

My comment reflected on Hordak's supposition that one cannot reject something one does not believe in. I've never believed in any pagan gods, but I still reject them because I understand the concept of them and believe that concept to be false. I reject the common belief (among pagans and Wiccans) regarding the various gods/goddesses of nature. In the same vein, an atheist may reject God and Christ despite never having believed in either.