semantics

[Lstinthwrld]

I have been as of recent having an excellent dialog with some missionaries in my area and some of my more thoroughly educated mormon friends and it seems to me that there really are a lot of commonalities between lds teaching and a lot of the rest of Christianity (maybe not the charismatic/evangelical movement).

It seems to me that a lot of the misunderstanding boil down to semantics.

What gets me a little is that it seems to be endorsed my mormons themselves to keep the general population in the dark.

Now I understand that there are somethings you don't discuss with the non initiated (temple ordinances and such) and nor should they. But wouldn't some more direct answers clear or nip in the bud a lot of these misunderstandings?

Let me offer a example of what I am very clumsily trying to relate here so I don't just sound like I am trying to start friction.

I have a certain friend who is part if the LDS Church one night we were discussing the teaching of Godhood and eternal progression when she stated that she had never heard of such a thing. I was surprised I believed this was a common necessary teaching on the core beliefs of the LDS faith.

Anyway she went to talk to her mother about this and her stepfather who was not a part of the Church was present. Her mother denied the teaching only to come back after the stepfather had left the room and told her that yes the church did indeed teach these doctrines but you don't discuses it with people that you are trying to convert.

The next Sunday my friend went with her parents to talk with the bishop and once again the stepfather was present and the scenario repeated itself. Needless to say she is very troubled about this.

And I am quite surprised that this would happen in a family.

I in my curiosity about the church have run into this type of thing time and again myself. Wouldn't it be better to just let go of this secrecy and be upfront?

The missionaries say that there are things they aren't allowed to teach until after the subject has been baptized.

Why?

In some sects of Christianity it is mandatory to wait at least 2 years from the start of learning about the religion until baptism. They want to make sure you know what you are getting into.

Wouldn't it be better to just present the beliefs and avoid all the crap and accusations in the first place?

[HiJolly]

I agree, but it isn't the case that every member (even endowed members) know all the info that is to be known about "Mormon doctrine". So, it wouldn't work as simply as we may like it to. Still we could do better.

HiJolly

[BenRaines]

I am confused. I read the OP's full statement and question and don't understand what the secret about Godhead or Eternal Progression is. Would you please elaborate.

Ben Raines

[Lstinthwrld]

No doubt HiJolly I don't think many people exist that could be said to fullu understand/know everything about their faith. I agree whole heartedly with that fact. I guess the issue I was presenting is the deliberate misleading of the uninitiated.

[Lstinthwrld]

Hi BenRaines I never thought there was a secret to it either until my friend got the responses she did from her own family and clergy. I thought this was a point of faith taught in church. I don't know what the secret teaching was/is. Or even why my friends questions with her stepfather present would be handled this way by both her mother and her bishop. My reason for this thread was my point on the semantics issue that it seems to me is caused by a lack of understanding due to not much available information.

[Vort]

I have been an active member all my life in many areas of the US and I have never heard of such a thing.

[HiJolly]

I guess the issue I was presenting is the deliberate misleading of the uninitiated.

So where do you draw the line between 'not knowing' and 'deliberate misleading'? Can we do that?

HiJolly

[Lstinthwrld]

Vort never heard of what? The teaching on Godhood/eternal progression or the denial of such because of the presence of the uninitiated?

[Lstinthwrld]

HiJolly as I stated in my OP her mother and bishop did know. They just told her there was no such teaching in front of her non LDS stepfather. I think the line is pretty clear don't you?

[HiJolly]

HiJolly as I stated in my OP her mother and bishop did know. They just told her there was no such teaching in front of her non LDS stepfather. I think the line is pretty clear don't you?

I'd be willing to bet that they knew there was such a thing, but practically nothing about how it works, how far it extends, or how exactly to accomplish it.

In the face of such ignorance, I'd hesitate to 'teach' it myself!

HiJolly

[BenRaines]

Or perhaps the stepfather has expressed a desire to not have it talked about around him?

Something I have known of or about since I joined the LDS church at 16

Ben Raines

[Lstinthwrld]

But my point isn't what happened to my friend in the story (even though so far that's what everyone is focusing in) its why is there such a lack of information about the beliefs of the LDS church out there and wouldn't a lot of issues that do appear to be semantics be done away with with more direct answers?

[Lstinthwrld]

BenRaines OK then why not say (especially from a higher church authority) lets talk about it in private not just "no we don't believe that"? I mean isn't it his responsibility to express his faith and beliefs?

[HiJolly]

But my point isn't what happened to my friend in the story (even though so far that's what everyone is focusing in) its why is there such a lack of information about the beliefs of the LDS church out there and wouldn't a lot of issues that do appear to be semantics be done away with with more direct answers?

I'm trying to make the point that on such 'heavenly' subjects, the members themselves don't know what the heck they believe. We argue about it all the time on this very board!!

Finding clear, direct answers is very like nailing jello to a tree.

HiJolly

[Lstinthwrld]

HiJolly If a bishop doesn't know what the church believe well enough to teach it should he really hold the title of bishop?

[BenRaines]

There is a wealth of information at LDS.org and Mormons.org I would say if you want to know how or what we believe use authorized LDS channels to find that information.

Ben Raines

[bytebear]

I think the problem comes with a misunderstanding of what Eternal progression means. And not enough members are ready to give a discertation on the concept. It's simply not simple. It's a complex concept with a lot of unknowns, and those unknowns are often mocked by anti-Mormons. So, Mormons avoid it, since there is so much more to understand about the gospel before you have to deal with the origins of God, or the ultimate destiny of man.

I tend to rely on the LDS Scriptures, and particularly the topical guide, which has a great entry on the topic:

Topical Guide: Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father

What's interesting, is most of the scriptures that promote the LDS concept come from the Bible, and not the Book of Mormon or the D&C. The same was said by Joseph Smith in the King Follett discourse (a non-canonical sermon) where Smith explains his understanding of the origins of God, and says quite plainly, "I will show it from the Bible." So, we get the concept from the Bible. But the thing to understand is that it is a concept, not a doctrine, and interpretation, not a declaration.

[BenRaines]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Pattern of Our Parentage

[Lstinthwrld]

I'm trying to make the point that on such 'heavenly' subjects, the members themselves don't know what the heck they believe. We argue about it all the time on this very board!!

Finding clear, direct answers is very like nailing jello to a tree.

HiJolly

Then what is the point of the church? Isn't one of the claims of the LDS church that you guys have the restoration/fulfillment of the gospel? If there are no answers why would Joseph Smith have even bothered with praying for a revelation as to which church is true? Why suffer all the persecution if that is honestly what you believe. I gotta tell you most of the mormons I know are pretty secure in their "answers".

[Lstinthwrld]

Ok enough with the eternal progression. I understand the teaching well enough. Can we get back to the topic?

[BenRaines]

LDS.org - Relief Society Chapter Detail - Preparing for Eternal Progression

[BenRaines]

I thought your concern was that these things are kept secret. The purpose of the articles I posted is to show that they are not kept secret but often talked about and printed about.

Ben Raines

[Lstinthwrld]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Pattern of Our Parentage

I read it but am a little confused as to the relevance of the topic I presented can you elaborate a little on the point I obviously (sorry about that) missed.

[Lstinthwrld]

I thought your concern was that these things are kept secret. The purpose of the articles I posted is to show that they are not kept secret but often talked about and printed about.

Ben Raines

OK but this is in a LDS context for an LDS audience. My question is about the non LDS context and the way (I believe LDS refer to them as investigators) are handled when it come to their questions. I asked this question of some of my LDS friends(to include the missionaries) and they say that sometimes people misunderstand the godhood teaching as polytheism. OK but why not take the time and have a discussion rather than say "we dont teach that". To me this is seems to be the root of many misunderstandings of the LDS faith.

[HiJolly]

Then what is the point of the church? Isn't one of the claims of the LDS church that you guys have the restoration/fulfillment of the gospel? If there are no answers why would Joseph Smith have even bothered with praying for a revelation as to which church is true? Why suffer all the persecution if that is honestly what you believe.

The point of the Church is to teach (1) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (2) repentance (3) baptism by immersion and (4) the laying on of hands by the gift of teh Holy Ghost.

And then, to endure to the end. Everything else is an appendage to that. Even eternal progression.

I gotta tell you most of the mormons I know are pretty secure in their "answers".

We are secure in what we know. What we know differs a LOT.

HiJolly