The Quoting of "Early Church Fathers"...

[Guest Believer_1829]

I see quoting of "Early Church Fathers" a lot when someone is trying to prove their case about "the ancient church believing as we do now." The problem is I see many different people from different churches quoting them to prove their points/doctrines. For example there is a Catholic that frequents a particular LDS chat site that is constantly quoting early church documents to prove Catholicism.

That is why I take quoting "Early Church Fathers" with a grain of salt, and stick with the Bible and Book of Mormon.

Any thoughts?

[desirexnoel]

If the church is unchanging anything that is revelation back then is revelation now. I know you hear this a lot but I was pretty much taught and believed this, and I don't understand why now we are to not really consider it at all...

[Dravin]

If the church is unchanging anything that is revelation back then is revelation now. I know you hear this a lot but I was pretty much taught and believed this, and I don't understand why now we are to not really consider it at all...

While something is revelation doesn't mean it's applicable, for instance the Law of Moses was given by revelation though it has since been superseded by the Law of Christ and thus I eat pork without compunction, have no problem wearing cloth of mixed fibers, shave the corners of my beard and don't perform animal sacrifice (or rather as a non-Levite participate).

Also, I disagree that the Church (Referring to the Church of Christ through out dispensations its current iteration being The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) has not changed. Look to the above for an example and if you want something more recent look at the Law of Consecration. We were commanded to live it and then were commanded to do tithing instead, things changed. Truth doesn't change, but how much of it God reveals to his children and just what exactly he commands/expects of them does and there is some degree of connection between the two.

That said I think that's all an aside to his point, his point is the quotations of early Christian Fathers can be read either way and so don't really settle things conclusively, kinda like how two people of differing denominations can quote the same Bible verse in support of their mutually exclusive conclusions.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Dravin

[bmy-]

If the church is unchanging anything that is revelation back then is revelation now. I know you hear this a lot but I was pretty much taught and believed this, and I don't understand why now we are to not really consider it at all...

We refer to the LDS Church as 'living'. I certainly think that the words of former prophets carry weight.

[Guest Believer_1829]

, his point is the quotations of early Christian Fathers can be read either way and so don't really settle things conclusively

Also, that the same "early church Father" (ECF) the person quotes will probably have a something he taught completely contrary to his own beliefs. So there is a bit of picking and choosing as to when the ECF was right and when he was "speaking his own opinion", all depending on what the person needs him to be saying to back up his personal belief or that of his particular church.

[john doe]

I think the writings of the ECFs are helpful in establishing early Christian thoughts and practices. They are useful when people come here claiming that some LDS thought, practice and teaching is new and unique to Christianity. Since we as LDS don't know the exact timing of The Great Apostasy, it is difficult to know how much, if any, of the writings of the ECFs could be considered revelation. But to discount the ECFs as irrelevant is tossing the baby out with the bathwater if you ask me.

[Guest Believer_1829]

I think the writings of the ECFs are helpful in establishing early Christian thoughts and practices. They are useful when people come here claiming that some LDS thought, practice and teaching is new and unique to Christianity. Since we as LDS don't know the exact timing of The Great Apostasy, it is difficult to know how much, if any, of the writings of the ECFs could be considered revelation. But to discount the ECFs as irrelevant is tossing the baby out with the bathwater if you ask me.

To be fair in considering the words of the ECF's, you must consider all their words, just not the bits and pieces that correspond to your particular religious belief system.

"Well, so and so taught deification. So the early church believed it."

"But so and so also advocated _________ (baby baptism/Saturday Sabbath/ celibacy (take your pick))."

"Well, that was just his own opinion."

"Huh?"

[BenRaines]

Someone once asked why we find it so easy to believe dead prophets and not living prophets. I think that is a good question.

Ben Raines

[Justice]

Dravin, I was about to get you for saying truth does change. Glad it was a typo. :)

[Lstinthwrld]

I see quoting of "Early Church Fathers" a lot when someone is trying to prove their case about "the ancient church believing as we do now." The problem is I see many different people from different churches quoting them to prove their points/doctrines. For example there is a Catholic that frequents a particular LDS chat site that is constantly quoting early church documents to prove Catholicism.

That is why I take quoting "Early Church Fathers" with a grain of salt, and stick with the Bible and Book of Mormon.

Any thoughts?

I think some of us might feel similarly towards the mormon scriptures. In the end how do you prove which way is true if either way even is?

[Guest Believer_1829]

I think some of us might feel similarly towards the mormon scriptures. In the end how do you prove which way is true if either way even is?

I trust you enough to know you won't make such a statement without giving an example.

[Lstinthwrld]

I trust you enough to know you won't make such a statement without giving an example.

An example of what?

[Justice]

In the end how do you prove which way is true if either way even is?

There is no physical proof, if that's what you mean.

The problem with proof is that different people require different things as "proof."

Moroni said the way you can know it is true is to read it, receive it with an open mind, believing it can be true, then pray with a real desire to know if it is. If you don't believe it can be true, there's no need praying.

That is how you can know. You just have to believe it.

[Snow]

I see quoting of "Early Church Fathers" a lot when someone is trying to prove their case about "the ancient church believing as we do now." The problem is I see many different people from different churches quoting them to prove their points/doctrines. For example there is a Catholic that frequents a particular LDS chat site that is constantly quoting early church documents to prove Catholicism.

That is why I take quoting "Early Church Fathers" with a grain of salt, and stick with the Bible and Book of Mormon.

Any thoughts?

Here's the problem with that... if you are trying to demonstrate what the Church Fathers taught and what was believed in the early Christian Church, quoting the Book of Mormon and even the Bible won't do you any good. If you want to show what the Fathers taught, you quote what the Fathers taught.

Seems obvious enough.

[Guest Believer_1829]

Here's the problem with that... if you are trying to demonstrate what the Church Fathers taught and what was believed in the early Christian Church, quoting the Book of Mormon and even the Bible won't do you any good. If you want to show what the Fathers taught, you quote what the Fathers taught.

Seems obvious enough.

I think your various degrees have failed you at comprehending my point this time...

My point is... Trying to come to a conclusion about true verses speculative doctrine by using ECFs is a tricky practice, as they taught various things, and the same ECF you use to prove something likely taught something else that is at odds with your belief system.

That is why I use the Book of Mormon and Bible as a standard to verify all teachings against. When we start believing those to books and what they teach, then the Lord has promised to reveal additional knowledge through the Sealed Portion and Brass Plates.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Believer_1829