Abortion

[Dravin]

Not quite Bytebear, the examples of children with genetic and psychiatric issues or in the case of crack babies physiological issues (on top of the afore mentioned ones) wouldn't necessarily fly. At least as I read them, there is a long way from won't survive birth to things like crack babies and downs syndrome (or various other genetic disorders).

It is though a lot closer then I think was assumed. I think there is a tendency for both sides to make assumptions on the other.

Person A: I think abortion should be legal.

Person B reads that as: I think you should be able to get an abortion any time you want, in fact have coin operated Abort-O-Matics in the women's restrooms ) if you can get it to work, double plus good if they're school bathrooms.

Person B: I think abortion shouldn't be legal.

Person A reads as: I don't care if you were raped by your dad, the baby won't survive birth, and has a 99.9% chance of killing you if you don't abort, you shouldn't be able to find an actual doctor to do anything, you'll have to use a rusty hanger and both you and the guy who sold you the hanger should go to jail.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Dravin

[Vort]

Deep

What, you think I should repeat all the arguments made by someone else just so you get to read them? What sense does that make?

[DarklyDreamingDexter]

Desirexnoel, Im sorry but I cant help but chuckle at your logic on certain matters. You've said several times that abortion should be legal because people are going to do it anyways and die as a result. By this logic we need to make murder legal because people are going to do it anyways and people are going to die. But then again, making murder leagal would make my life a little easier.

Yes, lets make killing legal. And lets make abortion legal as well. : killing wholesale!

[desirexnoel]

Desirexnoel, Im sorry but I cant help but chuckle at your logic on certain matters. You've said several times that abortion should be legal because people are going to do it anyways and die as a result. By this logic we need to make murder legal because people are going to do it anyways and people are going to die. But then again, making murder leagal would make my life a little easier.

Yes, lets make killing legal. And lets make abortion legal as well. : killing wholesale!

Someone already argued that. There is a difference between pro choice and pro murder.

[desirexnoel]

Unwanted pregnancies should not happen.

Pregnant women doing drugs or drinking should not happen.

Fathers raping daughters should not happen.

Irresponsible people having sex should not happen.

Agreed, but they do.

Snuffing out innocent babies' lives should not happen and let's be real - most of the time it happens because of convenience, not because a woman was raped. As a mother of four children, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the "women died having illegal abortions" sob story. They didn't have to have sex. They didn't have to have the abortion. Yes, it would be scary and humiliating, but better than being dead and a baby murderer.

I agree that most abortions are in regards to convenience and I completely agree that is a TERRIBLE reason to abort. It is a huge mistake that the woman now needs to live with and answer to God for.

If I have anything nice to say about my alcoholic grandmother who abandoned her children, it's that she went to a home for unwed mothers to have babies that she gave up for adoption instead of having them killed. We just found out this year that she had two children before she married my grandfather.

Good for her. :)

[Dravin]

What, you think I should repeat all the arguments made by someone else just so you get to read them? What sense does that make?

I'm just going to take it as a compliment to me.

[Vort]

I'm just going to take it as a compliment to me.

It was meant as such.

[bytebear]

Not quite Bytebear, the examples of children with genetic and psychiatric issues or in the case of crack babies physiological issues (on top of the afore mentioned ones) wouldn't necessarily fly. At least as I read them, there is a long way from won't survive birth to things like crack babies and downs syndrome (or various other genetic disorders).

It is though a lot closer then I think was assumed. I think there is a tendency for both sides to make assumptions on the other.

Person A: I think abortion should be legal.

Person B reads that as: I think you should be able to get an abortion any time you want, in fact have coin operated Abort-O-Matics in the women's restrooms ) if you can get it to work, double plus good if they're school bathrooms.

Person B: I think abortion shouldn't be legal.

Person A reads as: I don't care if you were raped by your dad, the baby won't survive birth, and has a 99.9% chance of killing you if you don't abort, you shouldn't be able to find an actual doctor to do anything, you'll have to use a rusty hanger and both you and the guy who sold you the hanger should go to jail.

I would agree with you, except that in your first example, that's exactly what pro-choice people are fighting for. In fact they are fighting for 3rd trimester elective abortions on healthy babies. If they actually fought for restrictive medical necessary abortions only, I would have sympathy, but all I hear from the pro-choice side is "I am totally against killing babies, but I want any and all forms of abortion legal" Find me one pro-choice stance anywhere that argues for limited abortion rights, and I will eat my hat.

I will also point out that the church isn't represented in either example

Edited August 22, 2009 by bytebear

[desirexnoel]

I would agree with you, except that in your first example, that's exactly what pro-choice people are fighting for. In fact they are fighting for 3rd trimester elective abortions on healthy babies. If they actually fought for restrictive medical necessary abortions only, I would have sympathy, but all I hear from the pro-choice side is "I am totally against killing babies, but I want any and all forms of abortion legal" Find me one pro-choice stance anywhere that argues for limited abortion rights, and I will eat my hat.

I will also point out that the church isn't represented in either example

I don't think that third trimester babies should be aborted unless it is a risk to the mother.

If you consider me pro choice... eat your hat and send a picture.

[bytebear]

I don't think that third trimester babies should be aborted unless it is a risk to the mother.

If you consider me pro choice... eat your hat and send a picture.

I realize a lot of individuals feel as you do, but the movement, and the leadership of it have a very different agenda than the average person. Find me something from an official source, although I do appreciate your opinion. If any legislation is presented to restrict any aspect of abortions, the pro-choice movement will be out in force to fight it, no matter how minor the issue.

[desirexnoel]

I realize a lot of individuals feel as you do, but the movement, and the leadership of it have a very different agenda than the average person. Find me something from an official source, although I do appreciate your opinion. If any legislation is presented to restrict any aspect of abortions, the pro-choice movement will be out in force to fight it, no matter how minor the issue.

I don't generally look up information on abortion because it isn't really an interest of mine. I usually only really read up on religion. That is where my interest lies, so really, I would have no idea as to where to look for your "official source".

Does that mean you wont eat your hat?

[bytebear]

I don't generally look up information on abortion because it isn't really an interest of mine. I usually only really read up on religion. That is where my interest lies, so really, I would have no idea as to where to look for your "official source".

Does that mean you wont eat your hat?

Sorry, no.

[Dravin]

If you buy him one of these he may:

[desirexnoel]

If you buy him one of these he may:

That's cheating!

Can I have one?

[bytebear]

That's cheating!

Can I have one?

Can I change my mind.

[desirexnoel]

Can I change my mind.

No!

[DarklyDreamingDexter]

Someone already argued that. There is a difference between pro choice and pro murder.

I would love to hear your arguments on the difference. Let me begin with my argument that it is the same.

What you call murder is the choice of one party to act in a manner which takes the life away from what you call a victim who had no say in the matter.

What you call abortion is the choice of one party to act in a manner which takes the life away from what you call an unborn fetus who had no say in the matter.

Now that I've read my own words I do see a huge difference; Victim is spelled dfferent than Fetus.

[Dravin]

That's cheating!

Hey, he didn't say what kind of hat, only that it be a hat and it be his.

[desirexnoel]

I would love to hear your arguments on the difference. Let me begin with my argument that it is the same.

Matter of opinion. There are many who would disagree with you.

What you call murder is the choice of one party to act in a manner which takes the life away from what you call a victim who had no say in the matter.

Murder is a little more cold blooded. Some of the babies who were lost to abortion were only aborted because it was thought to be what was best for those babies. We don't know whether that is the case or not.

What you call abortion is the choice of one party to act in a manner which takes the life away from what you call an unborn fetus who had no say in the matter.

I wonder if the suicide rate would go up...

Now that I've read my own words I do see a huge difference; Victim is spelled dfferent than Fetus.

*sigh*

[desirexnoel]

Hey, he didn't say what kind of hat, only that it be a hat and it be his.

But it is no fun if he would eat the hat regardless.

[Dravin]

I will also point out that the church isn't represented in either example

I just actually caught this. It wasn't ment to be, it was supposed to be the most extreme position associated with as simple and unnuanced a phrase as, "I do/don't think abortion should be legal."

But it is no fun if he would eat the hat regardless.

For you maybe, I think he'd enjoy eating the hat regardless. :)

Murder is a little more cold blooded. Some of the babies who were lost to abortion were only aborted because it was thought to be what was best for those babies. We don't know whether that is the case or not.

To be fair if that decision was made after the child was born it'd be called murder (by most) even if the rational was the same.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Dravin

[desirexnoel]

I just actually caught this. It wasn't ment to be, it was supposed to be the most extreme position associated with as simple and unnuanced a phrase as, "I do/don't think abortion should be legal."

For you maybe, I think he'd enjoy eating the hat regardless. :)

I don't think that anyone here fits Mr. Extreme.

Well... I hope not...

[bytebear]

Murder is a little more cold blooded. Some of the babies who were lost to abortion were only aborted because it was thought to be what was best for those babies. We don't know whether that is the case or not.

Statistically speaking, you are representing a very small fraction of abortions. But the vast majority of abortions are selfish.

[desirexnoel]

Statistically speaking, you are representing a very small fraction of abortions. But the vast majority of abortions are selfish.

That was said before, and like I said before:

I don't agree with people aborting for convenience. Because that is based on my moral opinion and because the unborn baby can't at this point in time be proven to even be conscious I am not against it being legal. I don't agree with most reasons as to why it should be illegal and you don't agree with most of mine as to why it should be legal.

[bytebear]

That was said before, and like I said before:

I don't agree with people aborting for convenience. Because that is based on my moral opinion and because the unborn baby can't at this point in time be proven to even be conscious I am not against it being legal. I don't agree with most reasons as to why it should be illegal and you don't agree with most of mine as to why it should be legal.

No, I agree exactly with your reasons why it should be legal, but that's not the line drawn right now. Do you want elective abortions made illegal?