The Church Of Scientology

[Ray]

Originally posted by Traveler+Aug 19 2005, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Traveler @ Aug 19 2005, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Aug 19 2005, 11:22 AM

As a point of fact, I said I don’t believe we should criticize other people for their beliefs, I didn’t say that I think we should never let someone know when we don’t agree with them.

Or in other words, when I think of someone criticizing someone else for a belief, I think about someone making snide remarks while trying to make that someone else look bad or feel bad for having a certain belief.  And I don't ever do that intentionally.

I think I agree with some of your thoughts. I personally believe that no religion should be discussed (especially in a critical manner) when there is no one qualified (devout member) that can and will speak for them. I can allow someone to be on a "hot seat" for some questions and I think honest questions are good. I also believe the questions should be from personal studing their opinions, point of view etc. and not from opposition.

The Traveler

I think that as long as there is an official source of information, we can rely upon that as far as it goes, but I agree that we should speak with an official if we want to discuss an idea outside of those parameters.

For instance, I think a lot of people could learn a lot about what our Church really believes by reading and discussing official declarations from General Authorities of the Church, but if they want to interpret what was said using anything other than the definitions of words, then they should speak to that Authority or someone who can assure them of what he meant.

But still, never ever should we use snide remarks when discussing someone else's personal beliefs.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 19 2005, 10:22 AM

As a point of fact, I said I don’t believe we should criticize other people for their beliefs, I didn’t say that I think we should never let someone know when we don’t agree with them.

Or in other words, when I think of someone criticizing someone else for a belief, I think about someone making snide remarks while trying to make that someone else look bad or feel bad for having a certain belief.  And I don't ever do that intentionally.

What a bunch of namby-pamby nonsense.

The Heaven's Gate religionists believed that it was a good idea to drink of high-ball of vodka and phenobarbital, wrap their heads in plastic and hop the death train to the good comet Hale-Bop.

They were duped idiots.

Fundamentalist Muslims thought it was a good religious idea to hijack airplanes and crash them into the Twin Towers murdering thousands of innocent people.

They are evil slime.

In the name of religion, the Aztecs took human captives, 10s of 1000s per year, laid them on a ritual stone, cut open their chests and ripped out their hearts.

They were murderous butchers, not to mention cannibals.

Consider what the scriputures have to say whore of Babylon.

[kriskriechel]

But we get bent out of shape when others do the exact same thing to us. I know very little about The Church of Scientology and have no right to make any judgment about what they believe because I do not understand exactly what they believe. And even if I did, it still is not my place to pass judgement. I can say that I disagree, but that's it. Consider also what the Bible says about judging.

[Snow]

Originally posted by kriskriechel@Aug 21 2005, 09:08 PM

But we get bent out of shape when others do the exact same thing to us.  I know very little about The Church of Scientology and have no right to make any judgment about what they believe because I do not understand exactly what they believe.  And even if I did, it still is not my place to pass judgement.  I can say that I disagree, but that's it.  Consider also what the Bible says about judging.

←

Who gets bent out of shape? I don't. Not if the criticism is fair and honest. Have you seen anyone here say anything untrue or unfair about Scientology?

It matters not whether you know little or lots about Scientology. Scientology doctrine teaches that Xenu was a galactic ruler who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth in exact copies of Douglas DC-8s, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to cause people problems today. You can judge that to be true (or possibly/likely true) or you can judge that to the fictional account of a second rate pulp science fiction author of such works of literary merit as Villainy Victorious, Death Quest, Typewriter in the Sky and Death's Deputy.

In you are going to appeal to the Bible - which you just did, then you would be compelled, by virtue of the Bible's instruction to judge fairly, to judge L. Ron Hubbard to be a liar. Either that or the Bible is not true and you should not appeal to it.

[Ray]

Snow,

You said yourself that you wouldn’t get “bent out of shape” as long as criticism was “fair and honest," so you should be able to see how someone could get “bent out of shape” by your summary of Scientology, just as some members of the Church would get “bent out of shape” if bat or Jason or some other anti-"Mormon" summarized our beliefs in the same way you did.

Or do you honestly believe your summary of Scientology was fair?

[kriskriechel]

Snow, you are doing exactly what anti-mormons do to us. You, don't get bent out shape? That's great! I admit that I tend to get a little irked when people criticize my beliefs. Yes, Scientology beliefs are a little out there in my opinion. But what I know of their beliefs is only from what I have heard and a couple of things that I read. I worked for a guy who started to get into Scientology. He would come in and be all excited about what he had learned. Did not make him a bad person or any less of a person. He knew my religion in fact his brother is LDS. He made no judgements of me and I made no judgements of him. This is what he chose to believe. All I could do is be a good example of the gospel for him. Not come down on him for what I viewed as whacky beliefs.

I do not know if anybody here has said anything untrue or unfair about Scientology. There is nobody here that I know of to refute your statements about their beliefs. You could go to an anti-mormon board and see all sorts of things that people post about the LDS church and they feel that what they are saying is true and fair. There are all sorts of anti-mormon websites that are filled with untrue statements. But people will quote them and say that they are true because it was on a website.

What I was referring to about the Bible and what it says about judging, was "Judge not lest ye be judged." I will not pass judgement on them. It is not my place, nor is it yours. Be a good example of the gospel.

[Ray]

Actually, the Bible shows that Jesus taught we should be careful about how we judge other people, not that we should not judge other people, and the way we are to judge other people is by their “fruits”. Or in other words, we can know other people by knowing their “fruits, just as other people can know us by knowing our “fruits”.

And we should judge other people as we would want to be judged, just as we should forgive other people as we would want to be forgiven.

And btw, the Book of Mormon shows more clearly than the Bible that we are to forgive others only if they Ask to be forgiven and sincerely Repent... not that we should forgive someone who is intentionally doing harm.

[Ray]

Snow,

If L. Ron Hubbard said what you said about Scientology, and if that is a lie, then it only shows that L. Ron Hubbard taught something that isn’t true… it doesn’t make him a liar.

Or in other words, a liar is someone who repeatedly tells lies, and a person tells a lie when they say something they know is not true. Otherwise a person is simply sharing false information which they believe to be true, although they could also be called a false witness.

And btw, I don’t know L. Ron Hubbard and I also don’t know the true doctrine of Scientology, or if I know it I don’t know that I know it.

[kriskriechel]

And until we know their "fruits" and not just what we think are their "fruits", we have no place to judge.

"When you hear stories, be wise. Unless you are in all the interviews, and hear all the evidence, you are not in a position to really know. Be careful, lest you jump to a confusion.

Unless you are a participant and have full knowledge, better"

Elder Boyd K. Packer, “Judge Not According to the Appearance”, Ensign (CR), May 1979, p.79

"What a different world it would be if we would put into practice what we have all heard so many times: “… whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.” (Matt. 7:12.) Instead, we are all so inclined to judge others by a standard different from the one by which we would wish or be willing to be judged."

President N. Eldon Tanner, “Judge Not, That Ye Be Not Judged”, Ensign (CR), July 1972, p.34

"I hope you will bear in mind that I do not bring these matters forward with any assumption on my part that I have the right to judge of the Christian status of my fellow men. No one, under the declaration of the Savior, has the right of judgment of his fellows unless he be specifically commissioned so to do. Scarcely anyone fully conscious of the responsibility of exercising such judgment would ever seek it, for the Lord has said: "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged."

President Stephen L Richards, Conference Report, April 1955, Afternoon Meeting, p.38

[Ray]

All good quotes, kris, and I totally agree that we need to be very careful when making judgments...without going to the extreme of avoiding the task of making judgments altogether, n necessary.

And I would also add that when making judgments on a person, our goal should be to condemn the sin and not the sinner, making every effort to try to teach that person a better way to live.

And btw, the word "confusion" in Elder Packer's quote should be changed to "conclusion", to those who don't know.

[kriskriechel]

Totally agree Ray.

Thought the word didn't belong in the quote but that's how it came up so I didn't change it. Its from LDS Library software that I have. I don't have the CR myself but my mom does. Would be interesting to find out if it was a software typo or what.

[Snow]

Originally posted by kriskriechel@Aug 25 2005, 01:54 PM

And until we know their "fruits" and not just what we think are their "fruits", we have no place to judge. 

"When you hear stories, be wise. Unless you are in all the interviews, and hear all the evidence, you are not in a position to really know. Be careful, lest you jump to a confusion.

Unless you are a participant and have full knowledge, better"

Elder Boyd K. Packer, “Judge Not According to the Appearance”, Ensign (CR), May 1979, p.79

"What a different world it would be if we would put into practice what we have all heard so many times: “… whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.” (Matt. 7:12.) Instead, we are all so inclined to judge others by a standard different from the one by which we would wish or be willing to be judged."

President N. Eldon Tanner, “Judge Not, That Ye Be Not Judged”, Ensign (CR), July 1972, p.34

"I hope you will bear in mind that I do not bring these matters forward with any assumption on my part that I have the right to judge of the Christian status of my fellow men. No one, under the declaration of the Savior, has the right of judgment of his fellows unless he be specifically commissioned so to do. Scarcely anyone fully conscious of the responsibility of exercising such judgment would ever seek it, for the Lord has said: "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged."

President Stephen L Richards, Conference Report, April 1955, Afternoon Meeting, p.38

←

Sheer and unequivocable nonsense!

People with more political correctness than common sense have been so sensitized to not stepping on anyone's petunias that they lost the ability to reason.

Let me walk you through the logic.

1. The Bible is true. (I assume that is your belief since you appealed to it and to 2 General Authorities.

2. Since the Bible is true, Scientology must absolutely be false.

3. Since Scientology is false, it's founder is a false propeht.

4. The Bible warns you about false prophets.

5 Therefor the Bible warns you that L. Ron Hubbard is a ravenous wolf.

Question: What kind of mouse must one be to not say "wolf" when there is an obivious wolf in the picture?

You paraphrased the Bible about know one by one's fruits. This is the whole scripture:

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

One must have one's head stuck deeply and firmly in the sand to not know the extent of bad fruits that the Scientology tree has producedA: fraud, deceit, abuse of the legal system, harm to family, fiduciary abuse...have you never read a newspaper?

Here's a few morsels to masticate on:

"Scientology is evil; its techniques are evil; its practice is a serious threat to the community, medically, morally, and socially; and its adherents are sadly deluded and often mentally ill... (Scientology is) the world's largest organization of unqualified persons engaged in the practice of dangerous techniques which masquerade as mental therapy." (Justice Anderson, Supreme Court of Victoria, Australia)

"The government is satisfied that Scientology is socially harmful. It alienates members of families from each other and attributes squalid and disgraceful motives to all who oppose it; its authoritarian principles and practice are a potential menace to the personality and well being of those so deluded as to become followers; above all, its methods can be a serious danger to the health of those who submit to them... There is no power under existing law to prohibit the practice of Scientology; but the government has concluded that it is so objectionable that it would be right to take all steps within its power to curb its growth." (Kenneth Robinson, British Minister of Health )

"The crime committed by these defendants is of a breath and scope previously unheard of. No building, office, desk, or file was safe from their snooping and prying. No individual or organization was free from their despicable conspiratorial minds. The tools of their trade were miniature transmitters, lock picks, secret codes, forged credentials and any other device they found necessary to carry out their conspiratorial schemes." -Federal prosecutor's memorandum to the judge urging stiff jail sentences for 9 top leaders of Scientology who had pleaded guilty to criminal charges" "Scientology is both immoral and socially obnoxious...It is corrupt sinister and dangerous. It is corrupt because it is based on lies and deceit and has its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard... It is sinister because it indulges in infamous practices both to its adherents who do not toe the line unquestionably and to those who criticize it or oppose it. It is dangerous because it is out to capture people and to indoctrinate and brainwash them so they become the unquestioning captives and tools of the cult, withdrawn from ordinary thought, living, and relationships with others." (Justice Latey, ruling in the High Court of London)

"[The court record is] replete with evidence [that Scientology] is nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount of money from its adepts by pseudo scientific theories... and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect.... The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard." (Judge Breckenridge, Los Angeles Superior Court)

"In January 1980, fearing a raid by law enforcement agencies, Hubbard's representatives ordered the shredding of all documents showing that Hubbard controlled Scientology organizations, finances, personnel, or the property at Gilman Hot Springs. In a two week period, approximately one million pages were shredded pursuant to this order." (California appellate court, 2nd. district, 3rd. division, July 29, 1991, B025920 & B038975, Super. Ct. No. C 420153 )

"It is common knowledge among senior executives of the organization and it is the policy of CSC that members of the Boards of Directors are mere figureheads, without authority or control, not for internal corporate reasons, but rather to vest control in Mr. Hubbard. I have personal knowledge that in order to carry out this corporate fraud, organizational executives have engaged in the various unethical practices including backdating phony Board minutes and forging signatures." (Affidavit of Gerry Armstrong, former member)

"When a person is subjected to coercive persuasion [as in Scientology] without his knowledge or consent ...[he may] develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self-mutilation, and suicide." (California Supreme Court, United States v. Lee [455 U.S. 252,257,258 (1982)*/)

"The dispute in this case surrounds Lerma's acquisition and publication on the Internet of texts that the Church of Scientology considers sacred and protects heavily from unauthorized disclosure. Founded by L. Ron Hubbard, the Scientology religion attempts to explain the origin of negative spiritual forces in the world and advances techniques for improving one's own spiritual well-being. Scientologists believe that most human problems can be traced to lingering spirits of an extraterrestrial people massacred by their ruler, Xenu, over 75 million years ago. These spirits attach themselves by "clusters" to individuals in the contemporary world, causing spiritual harm and negatively influencing the lives of their hosts ". USDJ Judge Leonie Brinkema 4 Oct 96 Memorandum Opinion, RTC vs Lerma ("...capable of such danger that the public interest demands that people should know what is going on" LORD DENNING)

"It is an organization with medical, social and ethical practices that are dangerous and harmful," "It claims to act freely so as to draw members who subsequently undergo ... brainwashing by dictated ways of thinking that limit reaction capabilities." (Judge Constandia Angelaki wrote in her [December 1996] ruling.)

"[The court record is] replete with evidence [that Scientology] is nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount of money from its adepts by pseudo scientific theories... and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect. [...]In addition to violating and abusing its own members civil rights, the organization over the years with its 'Fair Game' doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in [scientology] whom it perceives as enemies. The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder [L. Ron Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile." (Judge Paul G. Breckenridge, Jr., 6/20/84; Scientology v. Armstrong, affirmed on appeal 232 Cal.App.3rd 1060, 283 Cal.Rptr. 917.)

[Ray]

Kris,

I have the ‘Personal Gospel Library’ loaded on my Pocket PC, which probably contains the same “books” or “bibles” you have, and I’ve noticed there are many words which were either not copied correctly or written down wrong in the first place. So as with anything else, I Ask the Holy Spirit to guide me so that I can understand what was meant.

Snow,

There are people who think about “Mormonism” what you just said about “Scientology”… even to the point of calling it evil and saying that anyone else who can’t see it as being evil must have their head in the sand. And there are many websites where you can find the same type of “critiques” concerning Joseph Smith and Mormonism that you just recommended we “masticate” on concerning L Ron Hubbard and Scientology.

You do know that, don’t you?

Somehow I have the idea that you’re trying to be funny, or are trying to show through satire how people should not engage in that type of behavior… even though there is a chance you are not the way I think you are…

…and even if you are the way I think you are, there are some people who simply get “bent out of shape” by the type of dialogue you seem to love, because they only want information which is “fair and honest”.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 26 2005, 08:28 AM

Kris,

I have the ‘Personal Gospel Library’ loaded on my Pocket PC, which probably contains the same “books” or “bibles” you have, and I’ve noticed there are many words which were either not copied correctly or written down wrong in the first place.  So as with anything else, I Ask the Holy Spirit to guide me so that I can understand what was meant.

Snow,

There are people who think about “Mormonism” what you just said about “Scientology”… even to the point of calling it evil and saying that anyone else who can’t see it as being evil must have their head in the sand.  And there are many websites where you can find the same type of “critiques” concerning Joseph Smith and Mormonism that you just recommended we “masticate” on concerning L Ron Hubbard and Scientology. 

You do know that, don’t you? 

←

Huh?

There are people that believe that the earth is only 6 to 7 thousand years old. So what. That doesn't mean that I have to stick my head in the sand, ignore all the evidence, and refuse to take a position on the issue.

Really - can you explain your line of reasoning? That there are idiots and bigots in the world - those that attack Mormonism (out of ideological prejudice and are either dishonest or misinformed), means, according to your logic, that we must ignore all reason and evidence and take a neutral position on Scientology. Seriously - I'd like to hear you explain all that... really.

Somehow I have the idea that you’re trying to be funny, or are trying to show through satire how people should not engage in that type of behavior… even though there is a chance you are not the way I think you are…

…and even if you are the way I think you are, there are some people who simply get “bent out of shape” by the type of dialogue you seem to love, because they only want information which is “fair and honest”.

Of course I am not joking. I haven't said a single thing about Scientology that is not correct, fair or honest. No one is saying that Tom Cruise is evil. He is just an idiot with a highschool education who mistakenly believes (on account of his ideological indoctrination) that he is qualified to offer medical advice and bad advice at that.

One last thing.... Ray, Kris,

Please explain how Mormonism or the Bible are true and L. Ron Hubbard is anything other than a dishonest, lying, science fiction writer?

I'll wait.

[Laureltree]

This is another one of those sticky subjects. I think if people were truly wanting to know something you would go to the source in any religion....I feel people have the right to believe what they wish, I don't have to agree with them but I wont be critical of them either. I live life by example and if they see something in my life that makes them wish they could have a piece of the cake I share a slice with them....But throwing the cake at there thoughts is not my cup of cocoa. B)

[Snow]

Originally posted by Laureltree@Aug 27 2005, 08:54 AM

This is another one of those sticky subjects.   I think if people were truly wanting to know something you would go to the source  in any religion....I feel people have the right to believe what they wish, I don't have to agree with them but I wont be critical of them either.

←

That's plain and simply a naive and potentially dangerous position.

We are not talking about a normal, valid religion with different faiths and practices of you own. We are talking about a deceitful, harmful orginization that engages in a whole host of destructive practices to further it's aims.

You say to find out about Scientoloogy - just ask them. Wrong, doesn't work. You can visit their website, read their books, go to their offices and ask them (I HAVE) and they will tell you nothing, NOTHING, about their beliefs in Xenu, the numerous lawsuits and convictioins, the proof that their scientific claims are false.

In fact, in you talk to Scientology, they WILL lie to you.

They claim 8 million adherent. The truth... 400,000 to 500,000.

They claim that individual cells in the human body have been observed in laboratory condition to be sentient (that the cells themselves can think). That is a lie - it has not been observed.

They will not tell you that they secretly use Narcanon to promote their doctrine to drug addicts.

They will not tell you that they have a formal Scientology policy of mega-agressively attacking critics.

They will not tell you that their founder was a drug abuser.

They will not tell you about their legal trouble... the blackmail, the fraud, the tax evasion, the kidnapping, etc.

They will not tell you about the use of hypnosis, the mind control or brainwashing techniques.

They will not tell you about their founders discussions that he intended to found a religion for the purposes of making money.

They will not tell you about the alienation between families and members.

Personally I think that all are being less than honest. If you had a child that was getting hooked up with scientology, you'd do your research and then do whatever you could to give your child an honest education about what dangers and lies they were courting. But because Scientology has a tax exempt status in the US you don't want to appear to be a religious bigot in public so you stick your heads in the sand and act tolerantly.

Laureltree, I have the same question for you: How is the Bible true and Scientology anything other than a lie created by a science fiction writer?

Second question: What makes you think that Scientology is a legitimate religion?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow+ Aug 26 2005, 07:40 PM-->

There are people that believe that the earth is only 6 to 7 thousand years old. So what. That doesn't mean that I have to stick my head in the sand, ignore all the evidence, and refuse to take a position on the issue.

Really - can you explain your line of reasoning? That there are idiots and bigots in the world - those that attack Mormonism (out of ideological prejudice and are either dishonest or misinformed), means, according to your logic, that we must ignore all reason and evidence and take a neutral position on Scientology. Seriously - I'd like to hear you explain all that... really.

I never said we should ignore all reason and evidence, or take a neutral position on Scientology, or that I believe those that attack Mormonism are idiots and bigots. I was talking about how we should be careful about judging other people and how I have learned by experience that it doesn’t help another person when I “attack” them for their beliefs.

At this point I would like you and everybody else to understand that I believe in nothing that has not already been verified to me through Faith, and that I use the information I obtain through the scientific methods only for ideas to consider as I Ask our heavenly Father for wisdom and His assurance of the truth. And I believe any other approach to forming beliefs would be based on only my reasoning or what I think sounds reasonable, which may have no real basis in truth.

So, if anyone disagrees with my beliefs, or with how I form my beliefs, then please explain your reasoning or why you think I should adopt your approach instead of mine.

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@ Aug 26 2005, 07:40 PM

One last thing.... Ray, Kris,

Please explain how Mormonism or the Bible are true and L. Ron Hubbard is anything other than a dishonest, lying, science fiction writer?

I'll wait.

Are you asking how “IF” Mormonism or the Bible are true, “HOW” L. Ron Hubbard is anything other than a dishonest, lying, science fiction writer?

If so, I’ll answer by asking how you KNOW L. Ron Hubbard didn’t honestly believe what he said? Or how you KNOW he was "lying" when he said what he said? And as I said, I do not call a man a liar if he is saying something he honestly believes to be true.

And FYI, my personal opinion of the man is that he MAY have been sharing his personal beliefs about what he believed to be true, without knowing what you and I know about “Mormonism” (which includes the Bible). And until I KNOW his motivations, or why he did not come to a knowledge of the truth as I know it, I will not judge him... though I would be willing to discuss my beliefs with him or anyone else who has ANY belief that is not in agreement with mine.

And btw, I can discuss all kinds of beliefs with all kinds of people who have all kinds of beliefs without “attacking” either a belief or any person who has a belief, and if anyone ever thinks I am “attacking” them or their belief, I try to help them realize that I am only trying to have a discussion. But sometimes I still have no effect on their beliefs.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 29 2005, 09:46 AM

At this point I would like you and everybody else to understand that I believe in nothing that has not already been verified to me through Faith, and that I use the information I obtain through the scientific methods only for ideas to consider as I Ask our heavenly Father for wisdom and His assurance of the truth.  And I believe any other approach to forming beliefs would be based on only my reasoning or what I think sounds reasonable, which may have no real basis in truth.

So, if anyone disagrees with my beliefs, or with how I form my beliefs, then please explain your reasoning or why you think I should adopt your approach instead of mine.

What a bunch of nonsense-speak. That is - words are coming out of your keyboard but they make no sense.

If what you say were true then the way that you know you made the post I just quoted would be because you asked God to tell you that you posted it and that he complied and so revealed it.

Whack - alert!

Of course you did no such thing. Just as you didn't ask God to reveal to you that you graduated highschool or that blue is a primary color, or that George Bush is the president. No, you know those things because you experienced them, or figured them out for your self or someone told you.

Let's not make stuff up just to fill white space on the page.

If so, I’ll answer by asking how you KNOW L. Ron Hubbard didn’t honestly believe what he said?   Or how you KNOW he was "lying" when he said what he said?  And as I said, I do not call a man a liar if he is saying something he honestly believes to be true.

In that case, here's the difference between you and I. Your the type of guy that believes a science fiction writer who wrote a story that Xenu is a galactic ruler who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to cause people problems today. These events are known to as "Incident II", and the traumatic memories associated with them as The Wall of Fire or the R6 implant. and that anyone who tried to solve the R6 riddle would be killed was simply making an honest mistake... and I, on the other hand, prefer to use my brain.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow+ Aug 26 2005, 08:01 PM-->

If what you say were true then the way that you know you made the post I just quoted would be because you asked God to tell you that you posted it and that he complied and so revealed it.

Yes, that is true, but the way I ask God and the way God reveals the truth to me isn’t as grandiose as you may be thinking.

For instance, I just read your quote of my post to see if you changed any of the words that I originally used, and then without anyone else noticing, I quietly and almost automatically Asked God if what I understood was true. And it was at that point that I then “knew” that you quoted what I wrote, and I also “knew” what I wrote was still true, having received an assurance from God that I correctly understood what I saw and was thinking.

And while you may prefer to believe that I could know the truth of those things by simply using only the necessary number of elements in my physical body, (composing two eyes, a brain, and some nerve tissues, etc.) I still know that I know what I know because my spirit communicates with the Spirit of God.

And btw, if we do acquire knowledge by using only the necessary number of elements in our physical bodies, as you seem to be suggesting, how do you account for so many of us having different beliefs? ...SERIOUSLY EXPLAIN THIS!

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@ Aug 26 2005, 08:01 PM

In that case, here's the difference between you and I. Your the type of guy that believes a science fiction writer who wrote a story that Xenu is a galactic ruler who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to cause people problems today. These events are known to as "Incident II", and the traumatic memories associated with them as The Wall of Fire or the R6 implant. and that anyone who tried to solve the R6 riddle would be killed was simply making an honest mistake... and I, on the other hand, prefer to use my brain.

How do you even know those words were written by L. Ron Hubbard? Did he tell you personally, or are you relying on hearsay?

I, for one, don’t know that he said those things, and I won’t trust your word that he did just because you say so... no personal insult intended.

And even if those are the words of L. Ron Hubbard, I was saying that he could have honestly believed what he said, even though you and I both know better than to believe what he said. And I sincerely hope you know better because God has assured you of the truth.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray+Aug 30 2005, 09:54 AM-->

Originally posted by Snow@ Aug 26 2005, 08:01 PM

If what you say were true then the way that you know you made the post I just quoted would be because you asked God to tell you that you posted it and that he complied and so revealed it.

Yes, that is true, but the way I ask God and the way God reveals the truth to me isn’t as grandiose as you may be thinking.

For instance, I just read your quote of my post to see if you changed any of the words that I originally used, and then without anyone else noticing, I quietly and almost automatically Asked God if what I understood was true. And it was at that point that I then “knew” that you quoted what I wrote, and I also “knew” what I wrote was still true, having received an assurance from God that I correctly understood what I saw and was thinking.

And while you may prefer to believe that I could know the truth of those things by simply using only the necessary number of elements in my physical body, (composing two eyes, a brain, and some nerve tissues, etc.) I still know that I know what I know because my spirit communicates with the Spirit of God.

Egads - if I were a supreme being and somebody were praying to me, even casually, to determine if they had in fact gone to highschool or if a third party had correctly quoted them in a message board, I would think 'You can't learn some folks nuttin. You give em give a sense of touch, smell, sight and hearing; you give a memory and a brain, and they still can't figure nuttin without asking.' How does the scripture go? It is a defective servant that needs to be instructed in all things?

Seriously Ray - how is it that I know I went to highschool without having to ask God but you do not know that you went to highschool unless and until you ask God if you went to highschool. Do you suppose that I was more righteous in the pre-existence and so God created me to know things without asking all the time but you were not-so-hot in the pre-existence so God created you without the ability to process independently?

And btw, if we do acquire knowledge by using only the necessary number of elements in our physical bodies, as you seem to be suggesting, how do you account for so many of us having different beliefs? ...SERIOUSLY EXPLAIN THIS!

Let me see if you can deduce the answer by me asking you a question: Let's say there is an algebraic equation consisting of three variables. 10 people decide to solve the equation by praying to God and another 10 decided to solve the equation using the quadractic equation.

Which group of 10 do you suppose would come up with 10 different answers and which group of 10 do you think would come up with one answer?

God gave you a brain - for heaven's sake use it.

<!--QuoteBegin- Ray

In that case, here's the difference between you and I. Your the type of guy that believes a science fiction writer who wrote a story that Xenu is a galactic ruler who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to cause people problems today. These events are known to as "Incident II", and the traumatic memories associated with them as The Wall of Fire or the R6 implant. and that anyone who tried to solve the R6 riddle would be killed was simply making an honest mistake... and I, on the other hand, prefer to use my brain.

How do you even know those words were written by L. Ron Hubbard? Did he tell you personally, or are you relying on hearsay?

Maybe your right, maybe a vast right-wing conspiracy snuck into Hubbard's bedroom and rewrote all his writings and then conspired with his publisher and independent scholars and authors and newspapers and enclyopedias and Scientology members to all lie about what Hubbard really taught and wrote.

... and maybe I am the Queen of Sheeba.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow@ August 30, 2005, 07:15PM

Let me see if you can deduce the answer by me asking you a question: Let's say there is an algebraic equation consisting of three variables. 10 people decide to solve the equation by praying to God and another 10 decided to solve the equation using the quadractic equation.

Which group of 10 do you suppose would come up with 10 different answers and which group of 10 do you think would come up with one answer?

God gave you a brain - for heaven's sake use it.

“A [brain]! A [brain]! We have got a [brain], and there cannot be any more [brain]!”

Is that the idea you’re trying to convey, Snow, because that’s what it sounds like to me.

And btw, that was a nice side-step, but a person can pray and use the quadratic equation at the same time.

Now try this question.

There are 2 people, you and me, who both:

1) have a brain,

2) understand the English language, and

3) have read or written the same words in this thread.

Now, why do you suppose we have different beliefs concerning the issues we've been discussing? (And in case you need a reminder, we’ve been discussing what is involved in making judgments, including how to know whether or not Scientology or even Mormonism is true, and whether or not we need to have Faith to be able to know the truth of all things).

We’re both using our brains, aren’t we? I know for a fact (testimony) that I have been using mine to guide my eyes and hands and other parts of my body while I have been expressing my thoughts and trying to understand what has been written... and I will assume for the moment that you've been doing the same.

So what’s missing?

Do you really not know? (If so, you haven’t expressed it yet, and I’m still waiting)

Oh well, I’ve tried to tell you, but since I can't make you know anything I will leave it at that unless I see that you are sincerely interested in a more detailed explanation.

OH, but I can’t let this go without saying... without your spirit, your brain and all the rest of your physical body would be DEAD... and without communication with the Spirit of God, you would be spiritually dead... even though you would still exist!

OH, OH, and you know what else?... my brain is not what lets me know that I have a brain... and I do know that I have one and I know how to use it!

Okay, that's it. Time's up. Game over.

Well, okay, one more thing about what you said was definitely written by L. Ron Hubbard…

It seems to me that you might be doing the same thing that some other people do when they put words into the mouth of our beloved prophet Joseph Smith that HE never said. And I also know you have seen some of that, so it’s strange to me that you can’t at least acknowledge the possibility that the same thing has happened with the words you were quoting.

Or in other words, the worst reasoning I can imagine to explain how you can definitely know those words express the beliefs of L. Ron Hubbard is because you simply found those words on a website which somebody else claimed he had written.

And btw, if I were in a position where I needed to judge L. Ron Hubbard, or if I wanted to learn more about his beliefs, I would investigate this matter some more myself, but for now I am satisfied thinking he was probably one of the many billions of people who have lived on this Earth who never came to a knowledge of the truth during his life here.