The Church Of Scientology

[Winnie G]

Do any of you know or know were I can find the core beliefs on line of the church of Scientology?

I was watching a morning new show and a guest said that Scientologist believe that millions of years ago aliens on earth somehow are born in our harts????

Please tell me this is not so!

Why don’t the bible fundamentalists go after them and leave us alone.

They think were nuts?

[pushka]

Maybe this link will give you some info. from their own website, but if you want some objective info. you might want to do a further Google search and read some other websites...

http://www.scientology.org/

[Ray]

Originally posted by Winnie G@ Aug 8 2005, 02:31 PM

… a guest said that Scientologist believe that millions of years ago aliens on earth somehow are born in our harts????

Interesting. I wonder if that’s a corrupt teaching based on how our eternal spirits come from a celestial world to physical bodies on this Earth where people often say our hearts represent the essence of our being.

[Winnie G]

Here is what I found out about the alien side of scientology this is a quote from a web site.

“Earthlings were invaded (75) millions of years ago by alien souls sent here from outer space.”

The whole program or ideals is to work your way though removing these alien from our inner self’s. In a nut shell.

OK that’s fine; what ever fills your boots.

[Winnie G]

I was shocked when I heard that this morning, I did not know much so I checked it out.

And to tell the truth I was surprised that people buy in to that.

My remark about the bible fundamentalists was to point out the bizarre difference.

Why do they not try to save their lost soles? and give me a brake when I attend conference in Salt Lake, do they yell at Tom Cruse at his movie openings?

I know were the true church yada yada yada thats way they come after us but cant they send some of those conference screamers to Tom Cruse Sunday service?

[Marsha]

Originally posted by Winnie G@Aug 8 2005, 07:01 PM

I was shocked when I heard that this morning, I did not know much so I checked it out.

And to tell the truth I was surprised that people buy in to that.

My remark about the bible fundamentalists was to point out the bizarre difference.

Why do they not try to save their lost soles? and give me a brake when I attend conference in Salt Lake, do they yell at Tom Cruse at his movie openings?

I know were the true church yada yada yada thats way they come after us but cant they send some of those conference screamers to Tom Cruse Sunday service?

HUH?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Winnie G@ Aug 8 2005, 04:00 PM

“Earthlings were invaded (75) millions of years ago by alien souls sent here from outer space.”

The whole program or idea is to work your way through [this life?] removing these aliens from our inner selves. In a nutshell.

Heh, it still sounds like a true teaching gone sour, except for maybe the time line. I wonder how they came up with 75 million years?

The idea of working our way through this life while “removing aliens from our inner selves” could be based on the “program or idea” of conquering the spirits that lead us into temptation, with only those who overcome all the evil in this world being chosen to receive celestial glory.

[Snow]

Here's the main "contra" link:

http://www.xenu.net/ (at one point that site was removed from the google search engine due to pressure from The Church of Scientology, but it's now back).

or

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/xenu-space-aliens.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

or

tomtrusieisabigidiot.net

[Guest Devil\'s advocate]

How can anybody possibly criticize another religion when their own religion is built upon unverifiable claims?

Xenu and body thetans? PFFFTTTT! How about the idea that a ghost (soul, spirit, etc.) enters an egg when it is fertilized? You KNOW that\'s silly when people can\'t even agree upon when said ghost creeps into it\'s organic host. Is it when it is born? At conception? Ummm, ghosts aren\'t real.

Which brings us to demons. Good Christian people really do believe that invisible evil creatures roam the earth to mess with the humans. Not the less intellegent animals, mind you, just the ones that are evolved from monkeys. Sometimes these demons will take posession of the host body that the (good) spirit is already posessing.

How about Xenu? Is that really that bizarre? Is it more bizarre than believing a sub-deity that lives on a giant crystal ball planet in another solar system that created the Earth for the sole purpose of judging the humans that he created to live there?

What about the idea that a magical kingdom exists in the sky (or outer space) where you get to go if you do everything that some guy that died over 150/2000 years ago said you have to do, or at least some guys interpretaion of what he said you have to do? Is that really less silly than the idea that if you telepathically communicate with alien parasites, you can make them go away? We won\'t even go into if it\'s silly to believe that a handshake can get you into the super-best-after-life club.

What about the idea that you have to pay a truckload of money with nothing tangible in return to achieve the goals set for you by your chosen religious organization? No red flags?

My point is that it is okay to have faith based beliefs, but it is hypocritical for criticizing another person who has faith based beliefs, just because they aren\'t the same beliefs as yours.

I am The Devil\'s Advocate, and I approve of this message, and hope that I didn\'t offend anybody.

[Shawn]

Why do they not try to save their lost soles? and give me a brake when I attend conference in Salt Lake, do they yell at Tom Cruse at his movie openings?

I know were the true church yada yada yada thats way they come after us but cant they send some of those conference screamers to Tom Cruse Sunday service?

I don't think Tom Cruise or Scientology lay claim to being Christian - which is why they are not assailed when they congregate. Not that I think it's right, but the people attacking LDS are attacking it because LDS not only claim to be Christian they claim to be the only true Christian Church on earth. Scientology can readily be seen for what it is, and they make no attempts to hide their strange doctrines. The LDS Church cannot say the same, therefore they get heat.

IJA,

Shawn

[Winnie G]

One of the things I read said even Christian can be members, since it deals with the human sole. That’s why the government gives them the status as a church, taxes ect.

[Winnie G]

Devil\'s advocate

Please give me a brake

alien souls sent here from outer space?????????????

Your in the wrong place to get my goat.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Devil\'s advocate@Aug 8 2005, 08:38 PM

How can anybody possibly criticize another religion when their own religion is built upon unverifiable claims?

Uh, yeah... I think that most people are capable of relegating the idea a the Greek god Poisiden who impregnated Medusa and so concieved Pegasus, the flying horse, to the realm of simple myth just as they are able to understand the idea of Xenu, a galactic ruler who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs is just bad science fiction fabricated to sell the Dianetics books and sell movie scripts.

The same people are also capable of understanding, though they might not accept them as absolutely true, that some "religious" beliefs are worthy of respect and admiration.

Beyond the doctrine or theology, people can look at a Church or movement and make judgements about that movements ethical or unethical behavior.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Shawn@Aug 9 2005, 06:30 PM

Not that I think it's right, but the people attacking LDS are attacking it because LDS not only claim to be Christian they claim to be the only true Christian Church on earth.

Shawn

No, people don't engage in moronic, bigoted, hate-filled behaviour because of what Mormons believe. They engage in such behavior because they are moronic, hate-filled bigots (who are so immature that they need an "other" to demean as a way to elevate themselves.)

Your approach blames the rape victim for the rapist's behavior.

[Shawn]

No, people don't engage in moronic, bigoted, hate-filled behaviour because of what Mormons believe. They engage in such behavior because they are moronic, hate-filled bigots (who are so immature that they need an "other" to demean as a way to elevate themselves.)

Your approach blames the rape victim for the rapist's behavior.

I find it interesting that you are claiming that the people out there who attack the Church are "moronic, hate-filled bigots" and that you, in turn, use the perjorative terms "moronic, hate-filled, and bigoted" to describe them.

Headline: Pot calls kettle black.

[Guest Devil\'s advocate]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 9 2005, 10:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Aug 9 2005, 10:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Devil\\\'s advocate@Aug 8 2005, 08:38 PM

How can anybody possibly criticize another religion when their own religion is built upon unverifiable claims?

Uh, yeah... I think that most people are capable of relegating the idea a the Greek god Poisiden who impregnated Medusa and so concieved Pegasus, the flying horse, to the realm of simple myth just as they are able to understand the idea of Xenu, a galactic ruler who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs is just bad science fiction fabricated to sell the Dianetics books and sell movie scripts.

The same people are also capable of understanding, though they might not accept them as absolutely true, that some \"religious\" beliefs are worthy of respect and admiration.

Beyond the doctrine or theology, people can look at a Church or movement and make judgements about that movements ethical or unethical behavior.

Yes, some people can look at a church or movemend and make judgements about that religions ethical or unethical behavior. When did we start talking about ethics of religions in this thread anyways?

Back to the topic at hand:

There is nothing as implausible or unlikely about Scientology, than there is about Christianity or Mormonism. All of these sets of religious belief rely on faith. Not science, not probability, not evidence. Just faith. Does a spiritual witness equal evidence? Maybe in some peoples minds it does, but that doesnt make it so. That just means that that is what YOU believe.

I am sure that you will find some way to disagree, but I think that it is hypocritical for a person with a faith based religious belief system to criticize another faith based religion. Even if they believe that their religion is true and everybody elses is bogus. Like that concept hasnt been done to death.

WTH)eck) is up with Kolob, anyways? Like that is way more plausible than Xenu the galactic ruler? Whatever.

What is next? Voodooism isn\'t a valid belief system because they don\'t worship the same god as you?

[Guest Devil\'s advocate]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 9 2005, 10:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Aug 9 2005, 10:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Shawn@Aug 9 2005, 06:30 PM

Not that I think it\'s right, but the people attacking LDS are attacking it because LDS not only claim to be Christian they claim to be the only true Christian Church on earth. 

Shawn

No, people don\'t engage in moronic, bigoted, hate-filled behaviour because of what Mormons believe. They engage in such behavior because they are moronic, hate-filled bigots (who are so immature that they need an \"other\" to demean as a way to elevate themselves.)

Your approach blames the rape victim for the rapist\'s behavior.

Whoa! Is that really what your church teaches it\'s members that it\'s critics motives are? I sure hope not. That is a pretty scary mindset.

I guess that means that all critics of Scientology are moronic, hate-filled bigots, eh? Wouldn\'t that include you, since you believe that only your religious beliefs are correct, and everybody that doesn\'t agree with you (definitely Scientologists) isn\'t going to the super best level of heaven as you?

You and 4 million people are right. The other 6 BILLION people are wrong. Whatever.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Devil\'s advocate@Aug 9 2005, 10:52 PM

Yes, some people can look at a church or movemend and make judgements about that religions ethical or unethical behavior. When did we start talking about ethics of religions in this thread anyways?

This isn't that tough Advocate. You said "How can anybody possibly criticize another religion when their own religion is built upon unverifiable claims?" Since religious bodies have behaviors associated with their beliefs, one way you can "possibly criticize another religion" is to criticize their behavior, if it is unethical. The Jim Jones group was unethical. Murderous Islamic fundamentalists wackjobs are unethical. Only a nut wouldn't criticize them.

Was it really necessary for me to explain that?

I am sure that you will find some way to disagree, but I think that it is hypocritical for a person with a faith based religious belief system to criticize another faith based religion... What is next?  Voodooism isn\'t a valid belief system...

You may be so enlightened that you are incapable of making qualitative distinctions between Heaven's Gate (the mass suicide group who hoped to hitch a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet), (or Voodoo or worship of the Norse god Odin) and Christianity but I am not.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Devil\'s advocate@Aug 9 2005, 10:59 PM

Whoa!  Is that really what your church teaches it\'s members that it\'s critics motives are?  I sure hope not.  That is a pretty scary mindset.

Why bother playing stupid games Advocate?

I could take any of the things you posted - like your inability to qualitatively distinguish between the religions - and say, Did your mother teach you that? That's a pretty lame mindset.

I guess that means that all critics of Scientology are moronic, hate-filled bigots, eh?

Now you've lost me. I don't know how you get from what I said to what you just said. I was talking about anti-Mormons, not critics of Scientology. Again, you may not be able to qualitatively distinguish between beliefs, motivations and behaviors, but I suffer no such malady.

Wouldn\'t that include you, since you believe that only your religious beliefs are correct, and everybody that doesn\'t agree with you (definitely Scientologists) isn\'t going to the super best level of heaven as you?

Again, you've lost me. I don't hate Methodist or Lutherans and I don't picket their places of worship and preach against them and author and publish lies against them and say they are going to hell because they don't agree with me and muder their leader(s). In fact, I like the Methodists and Lutherans, and Catholics etc appreciate and respect the beauty and power of their traditions.

When I have to explain every single little point to you, it becomes rather laborious. Please try and keep up. It's ever so much more efficient.

You and 4 million people are right.  The other 6 BILLION people are wrong.

Now you are really out there. What 4 million people? What does the 4 million mean?

People agreeing that I am right, be it 4 million or 735,000 has nothing to do with people attacking the church, lying, negatively proselytizing, slandering, engaging in ugly behavior, etc.

Whatever.

Whatever what? Or was that sarcasm?

[Ray]

DA,

I agree that nobody should be criticized for their religious beliefs, and I think anyone who criticizes someone or a group of people for their religious beliefs is simply without the love of God in their heart.

But to engage in "moronic, bigoted, hate-filled behaviour” is not a religious belief, that is a behavior, and people who engage in that type of behavior are moronic bigots filled with hate, as judged by their own "works", which is another word for "behavior".

Will you now acknowledge your criticism of our religious beliefs, apologize for doing that, and promise never to do that again?

And btw, as a Church, “we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may"…with the understanding that people who knowingly engage in unlawful behavior should be punished.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 18 2005, 11:39 AM

DA,

I agree that nobody should be criticized for their religious beliefs, and I think anyone who criticizes someone or a group of people for their religious beliefs is simply without the love of God in their heart.

Oh come now...

Of course we can criticize. Should we ignore extremists fundamentalists and their beliefs? Can you not observe that snake handlers are a bit off their rockers, that Benny Hinn followers are... well, Benny Hinn followers, that Jim Jones cultists are up to no good? What about the Church of Body modification?

The key is not to criticize unfairly, not to avoid judgement calls.

[Ray]

Sorry to have to disagree with you, but I still don’t think we should criticize any belief. Or in other words, I will uphold someone’s right to believe anything they want to believe, including a belief that everybody without purple hair should be put to death, and I won’t interfere with their right to that belief until they try to convert that belief into an action which is contrary to law.

And btw, I don’t think talking about how “silly” a particular belief is would do much good to help someone understand how “silly” their belief is either, because they won’t understand how “silly” it is until they can truly see how another belief is better than what they currently believe. Or in other words, I think we should let our light shine so that others can see what is good and glorify our Father in heaven… instead of criticizing someone for having a belief we don't agree with.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Snow+Aug 18 2005, 05:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Aug 18 2005, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Aug 18 2005, 11:39 AM

DA,

I agree that nobody should be criticized for their religious beliefs, and I think anyone who criticizes someone or a group of people for their religious beliefs is simply without the love of God in their heart.

Oh come now...

Of course we can criticize. Should we ignore extremists fundamentalists and their beliefs? Can you not observe that snake handlers are a bit off their rockers, that Benny Hinn followers are... well, Benny Hinn followers, that Jim Jones cultists are up to no good? What about the Church of Body modification?

The key is not to criticize unfairly, not to avoid judgement calls.

I both agree and disagree with your points, Snow. I see nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone. Where we may differ is in the what to do about it catagory. I think if you disagree with someone you should take it up with them (if at all) - directly like I am doing with you now. I do not think that snide remarks to the peenut galary solves anything. :) BTW I believe the D&C makes some suggestions about what to do when you do not see eye to eye with someone.

Have a nice day :)

The Traveler

[Ray]

As a point of fact, I said I don’t believe we should criticize other people for their beliefs, I didn’t say that I think we should never let someone know when we don’t agree with them.

Or in other words, when I think of someone criticizing someone else for a belief, I think about someone making snide remarks while trying to make that someone else look bad or feel bad for having a certain belief. And I don't ever do that intentionally.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Ray@Aug 19 2005, 11:22 AM

As a point of fact, I said I don’t believe we should criticize other people for their beliefs, I didn’t say that I think we should never let someone know when we don’t agree with them.

Or in other words, when I think of someone criticizing someone else for a belief, I think about someone making snide remarks while trying to make that someone else look bad or feel bad for having a certain belief.  And I don't ever do that intentionally.

I think I agree with some of your thoughts. I personally believe that no religion should be discussed (especially in a critical manner) when there is no one qualified (devout member) that can and will speak for them. I can allow someone to be on a "hot seat" for some questions and I think honest questions are good. I also believe the questions should be from personal studying their opinions, point of view etc. and not from opposition.

I use to sponsor a religious topic luncheon in the SLC area. Several of us representing different religions would meet for lunch once a month. We would take turns presenting a doctrine and then have an open question session. It got to be quite popular and we would have about 20 or so attending. One of the more popular presenters was a lay Buddhist monk that is a good friend of mine. Many that attended were surprised to discover that SLC is the world center for Zen Buddhism for Buddhist outside of Asia.

The Traveler