Posts Against The Church Or Misleading

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by pushka@Sep 23 2005, 01:00 PM

My question, therefore, is how can Christianity justify using Pagan symbols etc. and then alter them according to their own beliefs when the origins of the symbols is so obviously Pagan, Occultist even?  Wouldn't that be akin to me making up my own story of a Jesus type figure, and doing just the same?  How could I expect anyone to believe that it was for real?

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We read the Book of Mormon, pray and ask God if it is His word. When He tells us it is, we know Joseph Smith is His prophet, the LDS church is His church restored in all its beauty and glory, and the teachings contained in it are true. A simple, and wonderful domino path to discipleship, I've found. It's really that simple in my opinion, but others feel that perhaps they need a Ph.D. in religion before they can "know what is truth." Christ taught plainly that the Holy Ghost will lead us into all truth, not dissertations or degrees. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Sep 23 2005, 10:37 AM

LeGrand (aka ApostleKnight),

Great post (#47)! 

I can only presume you graduated from the Michael Bagent and Richard Leigh College of Pseudo-History? 

Did you have any classes with Dan Brown?

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You know what happens when we assume, right.

I actually have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm sure it's significant (to someone else). Thanks for reading though, you're a real sport, that was a LOT of information (even if you find it less than credible). Oh and for the record, I am not asserting that all of that information I posted is THE absolute 100% truth. My intent was to show that there is evidence of the Masonic rituals having come from an earlier source. When all is said and done, as I noted earlier, prayer and the confirmation of the Spirit is the only way to know if Joseph Smith restored the endowment through revelation, so you'd really be wasting your time trying to convince me of my many errors (especially if it took a whole day!).

After all, what greater witness can I have than from God?

[Jason]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Sep 23 2005, 12:12 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Sep 23 2005, 10:37 AM

LeGrand (aka ApostleKnight),

Great post (#47)! 

I can only presume you graduated from the Michael Bagent and Richard Leigh College of Pseudo-History?  

Did you have any classes with Dan Brown?

←

You know what happens when we assume, right.

I actually have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm sure it's significant (to someone else). Thanks for reading though, you're a real sport, that was a LOT of information (even if you find it less than credible). Oh and for the record, I am not asserting that all of that information I posted is THE absolute 100% truth. My intent was to show that there is evidence of the Masonic rituals having come from an earlier source. When all is said and done, as I noted earlier, prayer and the confirmation of the Spirit is the only way to know if Joseph Smith restored the endowment through revelation, so you'd really be wasting your time trying to convince me of my many errors (especially if it took a whole day!).

After all, what greater witness can I have than from God?

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Well....I guess I won't waste my time then. But consider one little thing: the rituals of the Israelites probably pre-dated Moses. In fact, I believe that their rituals were borrowed from their "pagan" neighbors, just as Solomon's temple did.

Have a nice day.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Sep 23 2005, 12:15 PM-->

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Sep 23 2005, 12:12 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Sep 23 2005, 10:37 AM

LeGrand (aka ApostleKnight),

Great post (#47)! 

I can only presume you graduated from the Michael Bagent and Richard Leigh College of Pseudo-History?  

Did you have any classes with Dan Brown?

←

You know what happens when we assume, right.

I actually have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm sure it's significant (to someone else). Thanks for reading though, you're a real sport, that was a LOT of information (even if you find it less than credible). Oh and for the record, I am not asserting that all of that information I posted is THE absolute 100% truth. My intent was to show that there is evidence of the Masonic rituals having come from an earlier source. When all is said and done, as I noted earlier, prayer and the confirmation of the Spirit is the only way to know if Joseph Smith restored the endowment through revelation, so you'd really be wasting your time trying to convince me of my many errors (especially if it took a whole day!).

After all, what greater witness can I have than from God?

←

Well....I guess I won't waste my time then. But consider one little thing: the rituals of the Israelites probably pre-dated Moses. In fact, I believe that their rituals were borrowed from their "pagan" neighbors, just as Solomon's temple did.

Have a nice day.

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Did you know Adam had the first rituals?

[pushka]

Can you point me to an article which traces how Adam had the first rituals? where it was written that he had, please?

[Fiannan]

You could say the mere act of putting on clothes is ritualistic as nakedness may not have been an issue of immodesty (heck, I know people who would not blush hiking naked) but rather symbolic of one's position.

[Snow]

A. Knight,

Thank you for the response and interesting background information. It doesn't really speak to my question or your original assertion however... that there was an ancient Temple ceremony established by Christ subsequent to the resurrection, that was then perverted and passed on by the Masons. later to be restored to it's pure original by Joseph Smith.

Do you have any evidence to support that?

Tell me, do you consider 2nd, 3rd and 4th century writers to be credible witness of any sacred/secret temple ritual that Christ might have implemented?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Snow@Sep 24 2005, 12:01 AM

Tell me, do you consider 2nd, 3rd and 4th century writers to be credible witness of any sacred/secret temple ritual that Christ might have implemented?

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The anti-nicene fathers do have many interesting writings related to this subject (www.earlchristiantexts.com has alot of them online). Whether or not their writings were preserved correctly, translated correctly and reported correctly is not something I would pretend to be an expert on. However, the trend in the writings of theirs that I have read, points to the fact that there was a version of what we know as the temple endowment, being used right after Christ's resurrection (carried on or taught orally by his apostles).

I'm not concerned with whether that ceremony matches in all points the endowment ceremony we are blessed to have today...the Lord's kingdom is one of progress and new revelation, so I wouldn't really expect a mirror image of our ceremony, though the basics seem to be reported as occuring in the first few centuries A.D., as the quotes I provided by Elders Packer and Nelson mention washing, anointing and receiving a holy garment.

As for there being historical clues that the Masons were the inheritors of this primitive ceremony (primitive meaning the primitive church, not primitive as in crude or unrefined), I haven't found anything credible enough to cite. I simply think to myself, "If there WAS some sort of ceremony being practiced back then, that is similar to our endowment, and if after the apostasy this ceremony wasn't preserved or continued with accuracy and authority, and if in the process of restoration Joseph Smith finds details of the ancient ceremony in Masonic rituals, then it stands to reason that somehow, somewhere the stone masons of medieval europe (especially Scotland) stumbled upon this teaching or had it taught to them in another fashion."

It's really quite fascinating to me, seeing how shreds of Truth have survived the cold night of apostasy. As I said, it's really a non-issue with me whether all that did really happen though, as I have a testimony of the divine origin of our temple endowment today. But I can't help wondering...did an apostate version of the primitive endowment survive among the gnositc sects up until the first and subsequent six crusades? If so, could the Templar Knights have learned of it and incorporated it somewhat into their monastic order and view of God? If so, when King Phillip IV of France seized all Templar assets and banned them from France in 1307, what if they fled to Scotland as some historical sources online suggest? If they did and if as some Templar histories claim they insinuated themselves among the "locals" by taking up and perhaps adding to the "masonic rituals" then in Scotland, would that be in some form what Joseph Smith encountered as he studied Masonry?

As I said, I neither worry about nor declare an absolute knowledge of such things, but it is interesting. Basically, if someone accepts that there was some sort of primitive ceremony of an endowment nature before the apostasy, and that Joseph Smith restored it, and that there were some elements of it in Mason rituals then...the Masons had to have picked it up somewhere along the way.

If someone does NOT accept those things then...it's irrelevant because we have a beautiful endowment ceremony today revealed by God and practiced in righteousness worldwide in the Houses of the Lord that isn't dependent on history to bring about the blessings promised to the faithful partakers thereof. :)

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by pushka@Sep 23 2005, 02:52 PM

Can you point me to an article which traces how Adam had the first rituals? where it was written that he had, please?

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In the book of Moses it teaches that Adam was baptised and if they had that they had the rest...

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 24 2005, 12:24 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-pushka@Sep 23 2005, 02:52 PM

Can you point me to an article which traces how Adam had the first rituals? where it was written that he had, please?

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In the book of Moses it teaches that Adam was baptised and if they had that they had the rest...

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D&C 128: 18

18 I might have rendered a aplainer• translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a bcurse unless there is a welding clink of some kind or other between the fathers and the dchildren, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the ebaptism• for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the ffulness• of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the gfoundation• of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto hbabes• and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Please+Sep 24 2005, 12:26 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Sep 24 2005, 12:24 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-pushka@Sep 23 2005, 02:52 PM

Can you point me to an article which traces how Adam had the first rituals? where it was written that he had, please?

←

In the book of Moses it teaches that Adam was baptised and if they had that they had the rest...

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D&C 128: 18

18 I might have rendered a aplainer• translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a bcurse unless there is a welding clink of some kind or other between the fathers and the dchildren, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the ebaptism• for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the ffulness• of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the gfoundation• of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto hbabes• and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

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Moses 6L64-6564 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was acaught• away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the bwater, and was brought forth out of the water.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was aborn of the Spirit, and became quickened in the binner• man.

66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with afire•, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the brecord• of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

67 And thou art after the aorder of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

68 Behold, thou art aone• in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my bsons•. Amen.

[Jason]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Sep 24 2005, 12:50 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@Sep 24 2005, 12:01 AM

Tell me, do you consider 2nd, 3rd and 4th century writers to be credible witness of any sacred/secret temple ritual that Christ might have implemented?

←

The anti-nicene fathers do have many interesting writings related to this subject (www.earlchristiantexts.com has alot of them online). Whether or not their writings were preserved correctly, translated correctly and reported correctly is not something I would pretend to be an expert on. However, the trend in the writings of theirs that I have read, points to the fact that there was a version of what we know as the temple endowment, being used right after Christ's resurrection (carried on or taught orally by his apostles).

I'm not concerned with whether that ceremony matches in all points the endowment ceremony we are blessed to have today...the Lord's kingdom is one of progress and new revelation, so I wouldn't really expect a mirror image of our ceremony, though the basics seem to be reported as occuring in the first few centuries A.D., as the quotes I provided by Elders Packer and Nelson mention washing, anointing and receiving a holy garment.

As for there being historical clues that the Masons were the inheritors of this primitive ceremony (primitive meaning the primitive church, not primitive as in crude or unrefined), I haven't found anything credible enough to cite. I simply think to myself, "If there WAS some sort of ceremony being practiced back then, that is similar to our endowment, and if after the apostasy this ceremony wasn't preserved or continued with accuracy and authority, and if in the process of restoration Joseph Smith finds details of the ancient ceremony in Masonic rituals, then it stands to reason that somehow, somewhere the stone masons of medieval europe (especially Scotland) stumbled upon this teaching or had it taught to them in another fashion."

It's really quite fascinating to me, seeing how shreds of Truth have survived the cold night of apostasy. As I said, it's really a non-issue with me whether all that did really happen though, as I have a testimony of the divine origin of our temple endowment today. But I can't help wondering...did an apostate version of the primitive endowment survive among the gnositc sects up until the first and subsequent six crusades? If so, could the Templar Knights have learned of it and incorporated it somewhat into their monastic order and view of God? If so, when King Phillip IV of France seized all Templar assets and banned them from France in 1307, what if they fled to Scotland as some historical sources online suggest? If they did and if as some Templar histories claim they insinuated themselves among the "locals" by taking up and perhaps adding to the "masonic rituals" then in Scotland, would that be in some form what Joseph Smith encountered as he studied Masonry?

As I said, I neither worry about nor declare an absolute knowledge of such things, but it is interesting. Basically, if someone accepts that there was some sort of primitive ceremony of an endowment nature before the apostasy, and that Joseph Smith restored it, and that there were some elements of it in Mason rituals then...the Masons had to have picked it up somewhere along the way.

If someone does NOT accept those things then...it's irrelevant because we have a beautiful endowment ceremony today revealed by God and practiced in righteousness worldwide in the Houses of the Lord that isn't dependent on history to bring about the blessings promised to the faithful partakers thereof. :)

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AK,

Again, though you told me you weren't interested in being corrected, there is no correlation between the Church Fathers and the LDS temple ceremony.

The Fathers had a secret ceremony, to be sure, but it wasn't an endowment. The Fathers kept the Eucharist secret. If you weren't baptised, you were'nt allowed to attend the Divine Liturgy. That was the secret. It wasn't what you think.

Again, have a nice weekend.

[pushka]

Please, thank you for your links regarding Adam...from D&C and Book of Moses...please can you tell me whether or not the Book of Moses is LDS scripture, in addition to the Bible, or whether it is a Bible scripture?

Sorry to appear quite dim here, but it's a while since I've seen what all the books of the O.T. are...I get confused sometimes as to which quotes on this site are from the Bible or from other LDS literature!

[Jason]

Originally posted by pushka@Sep 24 2005, 04:49 PM

Please, thank you for your links regarding Adam...from D&C and Book of Moses...please can you tell me whether or not the Book of Moses is LDS scripture, in addition to the Bible, or whether it is a Bible scripture?

Sorry to appear quite dim here, but it's a while since I've seen what all the books of the O.T. are...I get confused sometimes as to which quotes on this site are from the Bible or from other LDS literature!

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Technically, the Book of Moses is Joseph Smith's new "translation" of parts of Genesis.

It's LDS scripture, found in the Pearl of Great Price.

[pushka]

Thank you Jason, I suspected it might be...never mind.