When You Post, Do You Post With Love?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Heather@Sep 30 2005, 02:39 PM

My concern is the motivation behind the words.  For me personally, I don’t feel I have the right, nor do I feel comfortable chastising anyone for their sins.  I don't care how well I follow the commandments and the Church leaders.  It doesn't matter how well I know the doctrine, because I, like everyone else who has walked this earth (except Christ) has sinned.  For me to pick up a stone and start throwing it at others, makes me a complete hypocrite.

A lot of times I don't feel the motivation of posts on this board are coming out of a desire to help others feel the love of God and find the way that they can live this life in happiness.  I feel the motivation is coming out of a sense of, "I have to be right and I have to prove you wrong."  Does anyone really think they can convert anyone?  I have to say that the person speaking about the gospel has very little to do with the conversion process.  Nothing I say or anyone says is going to matter to the person we're talking to if it's not said out of love and respect.   Only then will the person consider the words being said and ponder them, and then have that desire to change.  Everyone has the Light of Christ, and can know right from wrong for themselves.  Just because someone says it, doesn’t make it true for anyone.

So when that happens, what has been gained?  Has the sinner realized their evil ways and changed?  No, they have become angry and pushed even further away from the message.  What has been gained, other than the speakers to be filled with a sense of pride with a false realization that they have done their job and preached to the wicked?  

Time and time again I have said the message is not wrong.  Time and time again I have said that the message needs to be delivered to everyone; yet some still feel that they must take up the sword of truth and thrust it directly into the heart of those they deem wicked.  Who are we to judge anyone and their sins?  I don’t believe those receiving the message are angry because they’ve “had to hear the truth again, and the truth hurts.”  For the most part, I believe a lot of them already know the truth, but like anyone, no one wants to be put into a corner and forced to do anything. That is Satan’s plan.  I truly don’t believe anyone can make a difference in anyone’s life by spreading a hostile message.  God can condemn and judge and do whatever he sees fit, but for me, I have yet to be called to go out and condemn those who have fallen away.  For me, my calling is still to show others the happiness that comes from living a Christ-like life.  I can’t force anyone to reap the same benefits and enjoy the same happiness I have.  I can only hope that they can see it, and want to try it out themselves.

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I have yet to see anyone throwing stones... unless you consider your own post here throwing stones at those you perceive to be throwing stones... I have labeled sins as sins... I have yet to call anyone a sinner...

[Eric]

How many rights and how many wrongs are there?

Too many to count?

Is there one answer for everybody?

This would mean that there is really only one ultimate truth of all things.

-eric [Mormon]..from many religions

my site: http://czuzone.teach-nology.com

[Ray]

Heather,

Please try to make the distinction between

telling people THEY are Wrong

and

telling people that A PARTICULAR SOMETHING is Wrong

If you’ll notice, I’m trying very hard NOT to say that a PERSON is wrong, and am instead trying to say that a PARTICULAR IDEA is wrong, although there are times when I have said that a person is wrong if they believe they can do what something that is wrong and not be called wrong for doing what is wrong.

But you’re kinda right on one point. Our Lord has told us to NOT unrighteously judge people, aside from judging them by their own works by knowing their true intent… and if you sincerely believe you shouldn’t make ANY judgments concerning people even AFTER knowing their true intent, then it seems to me as if you believe you should never try to truly UNDERSTAND people.

Or in other words, I believe our role is to simply share the TRUTH with people while allowing everyone to make whatever choice they want to make for themselves, knowing that in the end, we will all face the consequences of our choices.

Or in other words, teach people as you would teach your children, while learning from others as a child learns until he can know for himself what is right and what is wrong.

Or in other words, we should teach people correct principles and then let them govern themselves… and I’m sure that among the things you teach your children is that there are consequences to every action and the best thing to do is to do only what will lead to the best results… while avoiding what is wrong or would lead to results which are not good.

And as I said, many of the people we are talking about have already heard the truth, and have refused it, so I am leaving my testimony about what is right and what is wrong, as well as how to find out what is right, as a last word of warning.

And btw, too many people make a big deal out of the word “Repentance”, when it is simply a word of encouragement to advise others that they should stop doing what is Wrong. And in case you don’t know it, “Choose the right” is simply another way of saying “Repent”

Btw, I'm getting tired of this discussion about so simple a matter, with apparently no good results, so I think I'll stop now while saying that I hope we will all meet again in a world where people simply want to know and do what is right so they can live the best lives they can imagine. And if that might be sometime later in this world, great. I'm all for that.

[Eric]

"To be an effective leader or teacher, one must show love and actually feel love for the person he is trying to instruct. No power is as motivating as the power of love. Christ loved everyone—the weak, the sinner, the righteous. Sometimes, the ones who need to be loved most are the ones who seem to deserve it the least. Though we may not appreciate or approve of what someone does, we must still show love for the individual."

Sometimes the truth may hurt..right down to the soul. It may sting like a knife..or pain like a throb...never the less..Truth is truth.

-eric

"The giant oak was once a small nut who stood his ground."

[Ray]

Originally posted by Eric@Sep 30 2005, 02:18 PM

"To be an effective leader or teacher, one must show love and actually feel love for the person he is trying to instruct. No power is as motivating as the power of love. Christ loved everyone—the weak, the sinner, the righteous. Sometimes, the ones who need to be loved most are the ones who seem to deserve it the least. Though we may not appreciate or approve of what someone does, we must still show love for the individual."

Sometimes the truth may hurt..right down to the soul. It may sting like a knife..or pain like a throb...never the less..Truth is truth.

-eric

"The giant oak was once a small nut who stood his ground."

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Heh, great thoughts, Eric. Welcome aboard. :)

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 30 2005, 02:45 PM

Any opposed?

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!Si!

[Heather]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 30 2005, 03:17 PM

Heather,

Please try to make the distinction between

telling people THEY are Wrong

and

telling people that A PARTICULAR SOMETHING is Wrong.

This whole thing came about because non-members were complaining that they were being told they are wrong. So the distinction has been made, and we agree. YAY!

My point is when I read aggressive posts, I'm not being converted. So what's the point of making an aggressive post? I would still like to know of once instance someone actually changed for the better because someone on this board posted an aggressive message towards them? I've never said, "Don't share the truth." I've only had a problem with the manner in which it sometimes has been shared. It's about how the truth is shared so that others will read it. Everyone has the right to post how they will. But I have the right to delete it if I feel it's going to lead others away from Christ.

There is more than one way to declare the truth.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Heather@Sep 29 2005, 06:57 PM

So unless I'm wrong on any of those accounts, and you haven't been made a judge over this dispensation, I still believe you’re governed by Christ’s teachings of "Judge not..."

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I just have to add my point of view to this! :) It's one of my favorite topics because I think it's often misunderstood.

The Joseph Smith Translation of that New Testament passage reads not just, "Judge not, that ye be not judged," but "Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgment."

I think what it comes down to (and I think this is what Heather has been getting at), is that I do not have the right, the responsibility from God, to judge someone's standing before God...I cannot say with certainty, "That person is not worthy" unless in a role as a judge in Zion (bishop, stake president, etc...), especially because many times I do not know motives, context etc...

But I think Jesus certainly wants us to judge actions and words. I may not be able to say whether someone's worthy to go to the temple or whether they're going to be saved or not, but I CAN say a statement is inaccurate when compared with God's word as found in the scriptures and words of our living prophets.

I agree that Jesus was loving, in that he didn't go to the woman of Samaria with inflammatory signs saying she was going to hell because her nation practiced a bastardized version of the Law of Moses, complete with their own false temple and false high priest. He sat down, spoke with her, loved her. But as Please pointed out, when it came to the scribes, pharisees and sadducees (forgive me if I misspell that :) ), whom he knew to be in open rebellion against God, he made a scrouge and DROVE them from the temple.

Of course, as it was CHRIST'S temple he had that right, but I think the principle is that we can and certainly ought to be bold but not overbearing, to reprove with sharpness immediately showing an increase of love lest we be esteemed an enemy, to paraphrase the D&C. And sharpness does not mean cutting or inflicting pain or wounds, it means IMMEDIATELY, CLEARLY, cutting to the heart of the matter, not the heart of the person we are trying to correct.

In the end, pride is a big factor I'm afraid to say. Pride isn't concerned with what's right, but who's right. Also, no one likes being misunderstood, we feel hurt and often want desperately to be understood by others because we feel that if they do understand us, they'd agree with us. Alas, often is not the case and misunderstanding is the only child of such a union of passion and apologetics.

Overall, I say, "Say what you feel, believe and think as long as it is not hateful or a personal attack or an attack on the Church, and I shall exercise the same privilege. And if I find a comment you made is in error when compared to the scriptures, I shall lovingly point that out to you, and would love for you to do the same for me when I am in error. If we cannot agree on the interpretation of that scripture, let us turn to the declarations of our modern prophets. If we cannot agree on the interpretation of that modern declaration, let us turn to each other, shake hands, agree to disagree, and wish each other well in our search for Truth."

But I DO think we can and should judge actions and words, we simply cannot always know motives and personal context. We should also judge actions and words LOVINGLY, KINDLY, with patience and open good will, putting forth our ideas and views as our reality, inviting others to see them as such but by no means forcing them or telling them they have to. Here's an example.

Person A: "I pray for challenges because in the Book of Mormon it says there must needs be opposition in all things!"

Person B: "Wow, you're stronger than me Person A, because I have enough challenges as it is. :) I did want to point out something that a teacher showed me once, and it changed my understanding in a positive way. The scripture I think you are referring to is 2 Nephi 2:11 which says, 'For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things.' I think father Lehi was teaching his children the necessity of there being good and evil, or opposites, in the world, or there'd be no free agency or things to choose between. I feel it's important to note that he said there must be 'an' opposition 'in' all things, not 'an' opposition 'to' all things. While I do feel the Lord lovingly massages and shapes our souls into the bodies of light they can become through trials and suffering, in my life I have found that he doesn't want me to be challenged in everything I do...it's okay to have a rest from suffering and just enjoy life. :) Anyway, just wanted to share that, because when someone showed it to me I had an 'Aha!' experience and I love those! Here's to bearing up under trials and opposition!

Now of course I have used good 'ole exaggeration to highlight my point, but that is honestly how I'd respond if I thought it important and how I'd love to be responded to. It allows someone to choose what to believe, their previous understanding or the alternative you've just offered. And that's incredibly empowering.

I TOTALLY agree with Heather when she said the love of God is the most imporant tool to teaching others (forgive my crude paraphrase Heather). While I don't make it a habit of sharing my patriarchal blessing with just anyone, I did want to add an 'Amen!' to Heather's statement by sharing one line that changed my life and understanding. The Lord told me, through the patriarch, in relation to my mission which I hadn't yet served, "I bless you to develop a love for the people you teach. No matter how well you know the scriptures, no matter how eagerly you testify, you will find that love will have the greatest effect in teaching the gospel." Then he said, and I noted it well, "Sincere love is ultimately of greater value than any other thing."

I leave it up to you to interpret how you'd put that into practice, and if it's ever okay to bluntly tell someone, "Hey I care about you, I want you to be happy, and something you said is, I feel, wrong and will not lead to a fulness of happiness. Have you ever thought about <fill in the blank>? It has brought me lots and lots of happiness and I know it can for you too! I'd love to hear what you think." :)

So I lovingly leave this offering with you in the hopes that we can all become of one mind, one heart and ultimately, one kingdom in God's presence.

[Heather]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 30 2005, 02:46 PM

I have yet to see anyone throwing stones... unless you consider your own post here throwing stones at those you perceive to be throwing stones... I have labeled sins as sins... I have yet to call anyone a sinner...

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If someone commits a sin, that you have labeled a sin, does that not make them a sinner in your eyes? I don't have a problem stating that we're all sinners. Label, set, match!:)

I never said that anyone was throwing stones. I said that I would feel like a hypocrite if I started to condemn others, because I am a sinner. To me, to post in an aggressive manner would be throwing stones. And yes, when I read many messages of the board, I don't feel the posts are posted out of love. Maybe they are, but I'm just stating how I feel about them. I was stating how I felt from my point of view, not necessarily how the posts were intended in the first place, merely how I am receiving them.

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Sep 30 2005, 02:33 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Sep 30 2005, 02:45 PM

Any opposed?

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!Si!

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I rest my case.

And shanstress, I want you to know that I do know that the First Presidency, and Quorum of Twelve Apostles, and other General Authorities of the Church are indeed prophets, seers, and revelators of our Lord Jesus Christ, and if you would like to know how you can know that too, I'd be happy to tell you, because I know that if you knew this was true you would find what I find to be the greatest of all religions on this planet.

If you simply do not believe it is true, then you'll go your way and I'll go mine, and we'll both reap the consequences of our own actions.

[Eric]

The way to understand judgement can be summed up thusly:

Have I hurt God?

Have I hurt others?

Have I hurt myself?

Ask these questions every day, more than once. Walk in the WAY.

-eric w. king

[Heather]

ApostleKnight thank you. I really enjoyed your post and it said a lot of the things I have been trying to say, but didn't know how.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Heather@Sep 30 2005, 05:42 PM

ApostleKnight thank you.  I really enjoyed your post and it said a lot of the things I have been trying to say, but didn't know how.

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Well thank you for being a living example of love for others even through times of misunderstanding. I for one appreciate your mature and open responses to many I feel might be less than tactful. I'm glad you're administrator. :)

[Ray]

It's easier to learn the perfect way to learn than it is to learn the perfect way to teach, because learning from God is a whole lot easier than teaching like Him.

Or in other words, we should all be trying to learn from God, while sharing what He tells us, rather than trying to teach others what we think He would tell us if we asked Him.

Or in other words, if you really want to know the truth, just ask God, while being sincerely willing to learn.

And you know what else? The other guys can say the same exact thing, but some of us actually know the truth, and some of us only think we do, and we are all trying to teach each other what we believe we know.

So does that mean we should all stop teaching except to say that we hope God will teach us the truth?

[Maureen]

This is a little off topic and really petty, but I can't help myself; I must get this off my chest.

Ray - your "Or in other words" are driving me crazy. You don't have to do anything about them, I just had to say that. Now you know.

M.

[Ray]

Heh, that's okay. I can understand how that could bother someone. My purpose for saying that is to let people know that I am trying to rephrase what I have just said in other words, so that hopefully they will see it as an extension of the same thoughts and be able to tie all of those thoughts together into a greater whole.

But I do acknowledge that there are people who can write better than me, and that I am still trying to learn a better way to communicate.

... and even though I still feel that it's important for me to let other people know when I know that something is wrong, who knows, there may come a day when I will simply share what I have to share, without trying so hard to help other people to know what I know, and then leaving it at that.

And FYI, I never got to go through the experience of raising young children to adulthood, and perhaps that is part of the reason why I have so little patience while trying to teach what I know to be true.

[Heather]

I feel better. Do you feel better? I sure feel better. Lets all feel better.

[Ray]

Heather,

I think it might do you some good to think about why you feel better, and why some other people may not.

Or in other words, while it sure feels nice when other people follow the counsel they have been given, it doesn't mean that those other people feel good about trying to bend over backwards to please other people.

Does anyone else want to find fault with my words?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 30 2005, 04:56 PM

Heather,

I think it might do you some good to think about why you feel better, and why some other people may not.

Or in other words, while it sure feels nice when other people follow the counsel they have been given, it doesn't mean that those other people feel good about trying to bend over backwards to please other people.

Does anyone else want to find fault with my words?

Ray - I don't think Heather's post about feeling better has anything to do with your post directly above it. She probably just decided to post it because she felt it. Nothing wrong with that. You're not getting too sensitive, are ya?

M.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Heather@Sep 30 2005, 03:50 PM

I've never said, "Don't share the truth."  I've only had a problem with the manner in which it sometimes has been shared. It's about how the truth is shared so that others will read it.  Everyone has the right to post how they will.  But I have the right to delete it if I feel it's going to lead others away from Christ.

There is more than one way to declare the truth.

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Okay... I am going to try one more time to show how you are employing a double-standard Heather... It is apparent that what you want is the lds to be soft on the non lds.... by not tellling them they are wrong... or pointing oput their wrong thinking.... but in the same moment you are allowing these non lds to post not only anti mormon material... but site where people can find more anti mormon material...

You stated above that everyone has the right to post how they will...BUT... You have the right to delete it if you feel it's going to lead others away from Christ....

Well then you must think that only preaching a hard line of truth is going to lead other away from Christ.... but that anti material will not....

I find your way of thinking totally screwy... is that too harsh to say to someone who is so gentle with the nons and so harsh to the defenders??? WHY????

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Heather+Sep 30 2005, 04:11 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 30 2005, 02:46 PM

I have yet to see anyone throwing stones... unless you consider your own post here throwing stones at those you perceive to be throwing stones... I have labeled sins as sins... I have yet to call anyone a sinner...

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If someone commits a sin, that you have labeled a sin, does that not make them a sinner in your eyes? I don't have a problem stating that we're all sinners. Label, set, match!:)

I never said that anyone was throwing stones. I said that I would feel like a hypocrite if I started to condemn others, because I am a sinner. To me, to post in an aggressive manner would be throwing stones. And yes, when I read many messages of the board, I don't feel the posts are posted out of love. Maybe they are, but I'm just stating how I feel about them. I was stating how I felt from my point of view, not necessarily how the posts were intended in the first place, merely how I am receiving them.

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Don't you think that your posts to me and Ray... or at least referring to our posts... were hurtful to us? You have openly stated that you didn't like our presentations... assuming yours were better... but from the perspective of one who you have made it clear is in the WRONG.... I was hurt... and shocked that you felt this way... I felt that many posts to me were unkind... but they have not been evaluated on that level... because I was lds and my attacker was not...

You have only seen this thing from the one side... WHY??? do you call that kind???

Now... after all is said and done...there are people who purposely try to goad the defenders..... and I am disturbe that you haven't realized this before now...there are also those who are sincere... but not all are...

I have had as many people tell me that they appreciate my comments as you have had tell you they don't like my comments. Those who know me... know I will 'fight the good fight' when it comes to defending the church and its leaders...

If you will watch Maureen's posts to me... you will notice a definite pattern... Shanstress on the other hand... tries very hard to keep herself and the spirit of the interchanges in a positive and forward moving mode... I really appreciate her for that... though she isn't lds. So not everyone is coming and complaining.... and I have to wonder if maybe I was stupid for not being one to complain....

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray@Sep 30 2005, 05:56 PM

Heather,

I think it might do you some good to think about why you feel better, and why some other people may not.

Or in other words, while it sure feels nice when other people follow the counsel they have been given, it doesn't mean that those other people feel good about trying to bend over backwards to please other people.

Does anyone else want to find fault with my words?

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Ray... I have to say this... you have been a gentle spirit and I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would say your posts were not filled with love and concern and most of all patience....

I can't for the life of me figure out why they would group you with me... because I am straight forward and very to the point.... while you try and sooth the savage beast and reason with them.....

I don't feel that these people who are trying to tell you that you are in the wrong... know what they are even talking about... seriously...

[Heather]

Please, perhaps you feel that my posts have been directed at you, when my intentions are to direct them at everyone. I apologize for coming across in a hurtful manner to you. Yes this whole thing started because of Ray telling Disruptive1 he was wrong and Jason telling Ray to take his poison else where, which brought forth a dozen pms of complaints. (That post by Jason was deleted.)

The moderators and I all agree that there is to be no double standard. But how can I tell non-lds view points to respect our beliefs if we can't respect theirs? How can I delete a insulting post of theirs, and let the insulting posts by LDS members remain? If I post that we need to be accepting of others and their beliefs, then I have the right to make sure that others are not condemning towards us of our beliefs. If I put into action that we need to respect each other when we post, then I have the right to delete posts when our posts and our beliefs are not being respected.

Is it really that wrong of me to ask that we respect each other and keep the insults and bashing out of it? I've made it so all posts which might be of view points from those with other beliefs are in a forum that you have to request to have access to. I've made it so every other forum is to be solely from an LDS view point, and post that are not, should be reported and deleted. For me to sit back and say it's okay for LDS members to bash other faiths would be setting a double standard. I think I have been far harsher on those who have a non-LDS view point. They have had posts deleted, warnings given, bans carried out, and I've made it so their discussions are locked away in a private forum. And yet they are the ones who are showing me respect and thanking me. What kind of double standard is that?

I know that I have said things that have come across harsh to members of the board, and I know that I have done this because of things I have witnessed in my own life. I have seen more people leave the church because of members saying hurtful things to them than I have ever seen leave the church because of anti-mormon preaching. I have seen relationships completely fall apart simply because both parties had to be right and that desire to be right overshadowed any respect they might've had for each other. There are a few things in life I feel very passionate about. This just happens to be one of them.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Heather@Sep 30 2005, 11:10 PM

Please, perhaps you feel that my posts have been directed at you, when my intentions are to direct them at everyone.  I apologize for coming across in a hurtful manner to you.  Yes this whole thing started because of Ray telling Disruptive1 he was wrong and Jason telling Ray to take his poison else where, which brought forth a dozen pms of complaints. (That post by Jason was deleted.) 

The moderators and I all agree that there is to be no double standard. But how can I tell non-lds view points to respect our beliefs if we can't respect theirs?  How can I delete a insulting post of theirs, and let the insulting posts by LDS members remain?  If I post that we need to be accepting of others and their beliefs, then I have the right to make sure that others are not condemning towards us of our beliefs. If I put into action that we need to respect each other when we post, then I have the right to delete posts when our posts and our beliefs are not being respected.

Is it really that wrong of me to ask that we respect each other and keep the insults and bashing out of it?  I've made it so all posts which might be of view points from those with other beliefs are in a forum that you have to request to have access to. I've made it so every other forum is to be solely from an LDS view point, and post that are not, should be reported and deleted.  For me to sit back and say it's okay for LDS members to bash other faiths would be setting a double standard.  I think I have been far harsher on those who have a non-LDS view point.  They have had posts deleted, warnings given, bans carried out, and I've made it so their discussions are locked away in a private forum.  And yet they are the ones who are showing me respect and thanking me.  What kind of double standard is that?

I know that I have said things that have come across harsh to members of the board, and I know that I have done this because of things I have witnessed in my own life.  I have seen more people leave the church because of members saying hurtful things to them than I have ever seen leave the church because of anti-mormon preaching.  I have seen relationships completely fall apart simply because both parties had to be right and that desire to be right overshadowed any respect they might've had for each other.  There are a few things in life I feel very passionate about.  This just happens to be one of them.

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I have seen non lds be so sweet and sensitive... and aluring... also.. so much so many of my past forum friends on another board left the church...

If kindness were the key to all things working well... those people wouldn;]'t be out of the church... so I believe there needs to be a balance between nice... and right... being that the church does need to be put forth by truth as well as kindness...

If it is thanks you are asking for... you are right you have done a lot... more than any other board owner I have ever seen... Thank You... really. I really appreciate the extra time and effort and care you havae put into this board... and I do believe that I should be more sweet and kind... it is a job for superwoman... which I am not... but I will try...

Thanks for hanging in there with me...

[Heather]

Ray, I honestly don't know all the whys as to why I feel better. It just started as a small feeling inside of me, and then it grew, and I just knew that I felt better, and I wanted to share that feeling with everyone else so they could feel better too. I'm sorry if you or anyone else doesn't feel better. You should try to feel better. It feels great!