When You Post, Do You Post With Love?

[john doe]

I think that what Heather is getting at and what certain others fail or refuse to see, is that many times, the message is the right one, but the delivery is totally wrong.

Yes, truth is truth, but that doesn't mean you have to beat someone over the head with it. It's a major turn-off. It is possible to get your message across without being overbearing or offensive about it. How many converts do you think the church would get if the missionaries were instructed to go door-to-door and simply say "our church is true and yours isn't, you better join ours if you don't want to go to hell"? I believe they are instructed to get the message out with a little more tact and sensitivity to their contacts. So why can't this board be the same?

Why is it not possible for some here to recognize that they have a problem communicating effectively and in a way that is not perceived as "attack-mode"? The whole "in-your-face" attitude I see with some people here is offensive to me, and since this is basically an LDS board, I would expect that at least the LDS here would be a little more loving to their fellow man (or woman, as the case may be). Do you honestly think that if a person genuinely misunderstood a gospel concept, that if Jesus were here, he would go over and smack him or her across the head and say "wrong answer, you're now going to hell!"? Or do you think that perhaps He would come over, sit down, and kindly explain how He understands how they might have gotten it wrong, and then teach how the gospel really works. I must have missed the Beatitude where Jesus said "blessed are the j@ck@$$e$, for they are my best teachers". I can't find it in my Bible anywhere. And even if you want to quote the D&C scripture about correcting others sharply, there is the followup about showing a great amount of love immediately afterward that often gets overlooked.

  I have yet to call anyone a sinner...

I'll pretend I didn't read that..... I'll just let it go. For now.....

Heather, you're right on this one, and I hope your point gets across, but I won't hold my breath.

[Heather]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 30 2005, 11:17 PM

I have seen non lds be so sweet and sensitive... and aluring... also.. so much so many of my past forum friends on another board left the church...

If kindness were the key to all things working well... those people wouldn;]'t be out of the church... so I believe there needs to be a balance between nice... and right... being that the church does need to be put forth by truth as well as kindness...

If it is thanks you are asking for... you are right you have done a lot... more than any other board owner I have ever seen... Thank You... really. I really appreciate the extra time and effort and care you havae put into this board... and I do believe that I should be more sweet and kind... it is a job for superwoman... which I am not... but I will try...

Thanks for hanging in there with me...

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I completely agree with you. I really do think you're great Please and I have a lot of respect for you and what you have to say. I think you're a great asset to the board, and I'm glad you're willing to put up with me.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Heather+Sep 30 2005, 11:35 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Sep 30 2005, 11:17 PM

I have seen non lds be so sweet and sensitive... and aluring... also.. so much so many of my past forum friends on another board left the church...

If kindness were the key to all things working well... those people wouldn;]'t be out of the church... so I believe there needs to be a balance between nice... and right... being that the church does need to be put forth by truth as well as kindness...

If it is thanks you are asking for... you are right you have done a lot... more than any other board owner I have ever seen... Thank You... really. I really appreciate the extra time and effort and care you havae put into this board... and I do believe that I should be more sweet and kind... it is a job for superwoman... which I am not... but I will try...

Thanks for hanging in there with me...

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I completely agree with you. I really do think you're great Please and I have a lot of respect for you and what you have to say. I think you're a great asset to the board, and I'm glad you're willing to put up with me.

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Thank you...

[pushka]

John Doe..I just feel I have to commend you on your excellent post...I agree with both you and Heather..and others, as to the way in which messages should be communicated...All that jokey stuff about Jesus knocking people over the head etc, had me in stitches too! :)

[Ray]

Heather: The moderators and I all agree that there is to be no double standard.

Ray: Wrong…meaning that I do not agree with your statement…meaning that I do not agree that there should be no double standard, at least concerning RESPECT for different beliefs.

And to illustrate what seems to be a contrast between my beliefs and your beliefs, I will now go over your comments line by line and try to show you how our beliefs seem to be different.

Heather: …this whole thing started because of Ray telling Disruptive1 he was wrong and Jason telling Ray to take his poison else where, which brought forth a dozen PMs of complaints. (That post by Jason was deleted.)

Ray: This whole thing started when:

I told the Disruptive1 he was wrong in saying that Masturbation is okay, explaining that our Lord and His authorized servants have said that it is NOT okay, and then

Jason told me to take my [poison] elsewhere… and then

you told me that I should NOT be telling Jason and Disruptive that it is “wrong” to say that Masturbation is okay, even though I went through all of the trouble to explain why it is wrong or not okay.

Or in other words, you seemed and still seem to want me to stifle my belief or declaration that [something] is WRONG, even though you seemed and still seem to be perfectly willing to allow Jason and Disruptive to believe or declare that [something] is RIGHT, even though our Lord and His servants have told the whole world that that [something] is wrong or unacceptable.

Heather…how can I tell non-lds to respect our beliefs if we can't respect theirs?

Ray: By simply telling non-LDS (and anybody else) that you do not RESPECT their beliefs when you honestly do NOT respect their beliefs.

And btw, please notice that I am not suggesting that you should not respect the RIGHT of other people to have their own beliefs.

Heather: How can I delete an insulting post of theirs, and let the insulting posts by LDS members remain?

Ray: I believe you should only delete or censure posts that “bash” or “ridicule” a person or a belief. I do not believe you should delete or censure posts that simply disagree with posts from other people. And whether you know it or not, to say that something is “wrong’ is to simply state a disagreement.

And btw, I believe I'm showing LOVE when I go to the trouble of explaining why I believe something is wrong, considering that I do so without "bashing" or "ridiculing" anyone or a belief. And in case you don't know it, it is not "bashing" or "ridiculing" to simply say that something is WRONG.

Heather: If I post that we need to be accepting of others and their beliefs, then I have the right to make sure that others are not condemning towards us of our beliefs.

Ray: I believe you were wrong to post that we need to be ACCEPTING or RESPECTFUL of others or other beliefs. Yes, we should LOVE other people, but that does NOT mean we should necessarily ACCEPT or RESPECT other people or other beliefs, and we certainly should not accept or respect the BELIEFS of other people if we do not agree with their beliefs.

Heather: If I put into action that we need to respect each other when we post, then I have the right to delete posts when our posts and our beliefs are not being respected.

Ray: Do you know what respect is? As I have explained, we cannot respect each other if we have different beliefs, although we can respect the RIGHTS of each other to have different beliefs. And if you go around deleting all posts that do not respect the beliefs of other people, there will be nothing in our posts that does not agree.

Heather: Is it really that wrong of me to ask that we respect each other and keep the insults and bashing out of it?

Ray: Yes, it is wrong of you to ask me to respect other people who I do not agree with, because you have no right to tell me who I should (or should not) respect, and respect is something that should be earned and NOT merely given away to everybody. Or in other words, to “respect” is to “admire” or to “revere”, and I simply WILL NOT respect people who I do not agree with.

But No, it is not to much to ask that we all keep the “bashing” and “insults” out of it.

Heather: I've made it so all posts which might be of view points from those with other beliefs are in a forum that you have to request to have access to. I've made it so every other forum is to be solely from an LDS view point, and post that are not, should be reported and deleted. For me to sit back and say it's okay for LDS members to bash other faiths would be setting a double standard.

Ray: As I said, you have every right to try to regulate the “bashing”, but you have no right to tell me or anyone else that we should not disagree with other people, even if we state our disagreement in one syllable words such as “Wrong”.

Heather: I think I have been far harsher on those who have a non-LDS view point. They have had posts deleted, warnings given, bans carried out, and I've made it so their discussions are locked away in a private forum. And yet they are the ones who are showing me respect and thanking me. What kind of double standard is that?

Ray: Think about that, Heather. Those who agree with you are showing you respect and are thanking you because you are not allowing those who disagree with them to state that their beliefs are wrong. And from what you stated above, it seems as if you think their beliefs are every much as noble and “respectable” as our beliefs, so why wouldn’t they applaud you for your support?

Heather: I know that I have said things that have come across harsh to members of the board, and I know that I have done this because of things I have witnessed in my own life. I have seen more people leave the church because of members saying hurtful things to them than I have ever seen leave the church because of anti-mormon preaching.

Ray: Are you suggesting that it actually hurts or harms other people to hear that their beliefs are wrong, even while being told and having explained to them what is right? Please explain that to me, after giving the matter some more thought.

Heather: I have seen relationships completely fall apart simply because both parties had to be right and that desire to be right overshadowed any respect they might've had for each other.

Ray: Those who know they are right will continue to know they are right even while other people tell them they’re wrong, and those who love other people will continue to try to help other people understand why they believe something is either right or wrong.

And as I have said, it’s impossible to respect someone you do not agree with.

Heather: There are a few things in life I feel very passionate about. This just happens to be one of them.

Ray: So help me get this straight. What is it you are passionate about, exactly???

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Please@Sep 30 2005, 05:20 PM

If you will watch Maureen's posts to me... you will notice a definite pattern...  Shanstress on the other hand... tries very hard to keep herself and the spirit of the interchanges in a positive and forward moving mode... I really appreciate her for that... though she isn't lds. So not everyone is coming and complaining.... and I have to wonder if maybe I was stupid for not being one to complain....

Hmmm - a definite pattern? What could that be? Are you trying to say Please that I am rude to you. Awe shucks, poor you. So you want to be able to dish it out, but upset when you can't take it? The way I see it, is that you state your opinion like it's the law and you feel everyone should respect your law. I disagree and I let you know I disagree. You have an opinion and have every right to state your opinion - but this is not your board and when you say that you are LDS and therefore "righteous and all-knowing" and all non-LDS are "heathens and evil" well I'm going to tell you that IMO you're crazy.

M.

[Maureen]

From the wise words of Robert Kirby:

Kirby: Opinionated folks just want to prove you wrong

http://www.sltrib.com/kirby/ci_3077248

M.

[Ray]

Btw, I wondered for a minute if only the prophets who were less "tactful" were the ones who were ever stoned or persecuted to death, and whether or not they would have been left alone or at least liked a little more if they would have been a little more like Heather.

But the more I thought about it, the more I could see that being more like them is a good way to be.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 3 2005, 01:35 PM

Btw, I wondered for a minute if only the prophets who were less "tactful" are the ones who were ever stoned or persecuted to death, and whether or not they would have been left alone or at least liked a little more if they would have been a little more like Heather.

But the more I thought about it, the more I could see that being more like them is a good way to be.

Ray I feel you are wrong when you are judgmental, sanctimonious and condescending towards others. You’re not the victim, so quit acting like one.

M.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 3 2005, 02:35 PM

Btw, I wondered for a minute if only the prophets who were less "tactful" are the ones who were ever stoned or persecuted to death, and whether or not they would have been left alone or at least liked a little more if they would have been a little more like Heather.

But the more I thought about it, the more I could see that being more like them is a good way to be.

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You are a good man Ray... don't let Maureens rude and mean hearted comments get to you.... She is just a non that doesn't know any better.

[StrawberryFields]

To Ray with Love~

Why do you do that? Why do you try to separate yourself so far and above from everyone else?

Wise is a man who know he is not an island.

Ray we all need one another on this lifem sure you may think that you know it all right now but we never know what tomorrow will bring. I believe that your intentions are good it's just your delivery that is out of kilter. It takes a humble man/woman to be in the pressesence of our Heavenly Father.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Please+Oct 3 2005, 02:29 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 3 2005, 02:35 PM

Btw, I wondered for a minute if only the prophets who were less "tactful" are the ones who were ever stoned or persecuted to death, and whether or not they would have been left alone or at least liked a little more if they would have been a little more like Heather.

But the more I thought about it, the more I could see that being more like them is a good way to be.

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You are a good man Ray... don't let Maureens rude and mean hearted comments get to you.... She is just a non that doesn't know any better.

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Thank you, Please. You are also a good woman. And don't worry, all the negative thoughts in the world cannot bring me down because I know what it means to overcome the world, and with the help of my Savior and the power of the Holy Ghost, I have and will continue to overcome. :)

[Maureen]

You are a good man Ray... don't let Maureens rude and mean hearted comments get to you.... She is just a non that doesn't know any better.

Thank you, Please. You are also a good woman. And don't worry, all the negative thoughts in the world cannot bring me down because I know what it means to overcome the world, and with the help of my Savior and the power of the Holy Ghost, I have and will continue to overcome.

Well of course you guys are going to pat each other on the back; you’re in cahoots with each other. But the real question is which of you, Please and Ray, think that the other one is in need of teaching correct principles in the art of condescending tactlessness. If there was a poll, who would you vote for as being correct and who would be wrong?

M.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Maureen@Oct 3 2005, 04:23 PM

You are a good man Ray... don't let Maureens rude and mean hearted comments get to you.... She is just a non that doesn't know any better.

Thank you, Please. You are also a good woman. And don't worry, all the negative thoughts in the world cannot bring me down because I know what it means to overcome the world, and with the help of my Savior and the power of the Holy Ghost, I have and will continue to overcome.

Well of course you guys are going to pat each other on the back; you’re in cahoots with each other. But the real question is which of you, Please and Ray, think that the other one is in need of teaching correct principles in the art of condescending tactlessness. If there was a poll, who would you vote for as being correct and who would be wrong?

M.

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LOL... sorry Maureen... I was just having a little fun at your expense... I really did mean to say Ray was a great guy... but I know you really aren't mean hearted... and rude...

You are right... we probably do sound condescending.... but then Christ Condescended... and I never really understood there are two kinds of condescention until I read about his kind of condescending to our level... trying to come to us where we were... and then showing us a better way... lifting us up... if we were willing.... you know?

Do you think it is possible we are just trying to do that...?? Or are we just acting all arragant and too hot to touch?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Oct 3 2005, 04:47 PM

Do you think it is possible we are just trying to do that...?? Or are we just acting all arragant and too hot to touch?

I've never questioned your motives Please, i know that you wish the best for most if not all of the posters. How every you know what they say about good intentions.

I don't want you or Ray to take offence, but it's the heavy handed, "I'm right and you will never know until you drop what you believe." tactics that made me decide to never join the church. I knew to many members who took that approach when i was young and it made a lasting impression.

It may not be what you want to say to us non members, but it's how it comes across.

I hold my faiths as dearly as you do. According to Ray's definition of Anti, you are all anti to my faith. So when you all rub it in that i am wrong for what i hold sacred, just think how you feel when people say things that aren't true about the temple, or the leaders of the church. Your words cut like any other "anti's" point of view.

We know you mean well, but anti is anti. You don't like em and neither do a majority of us. Golden rule time, we have to show respect, and we would like the same in return.

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If this weren't an LDS forum... I would take what you say more seriously when you say we are anti you...

As far as you not joining the church... if truth isn't what you were looking for and you made your decision as you say according to how you took other's approaches at defending the church... that is your loss right? your decision... you can't put that on us...

Why would you even want to appear so weak as to blame us for your decision anyway?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Maureen@Oct 3 2005, 03:23 PM

You are a good man Ray... don't let Maureens rude and mean hearted comments get to you.... She is just a non that doesn't know any better.

Thank you, Please. You are also a good woman. And don't worry, all the negative thoughts in the world cannot bring me down because I know what it means to overcome the world, and with the help of my Savior and the power of the Holy Ghost, I have and will continue to overcome.

Well of course you guys are going to pat each other on the back; you’re in cahoots with each other. But the real question is which of you, Please and Ray, think that the other one is in need of teaching correct principles in the art of condescending tactlessness. If there was a poll, who would you vote for as being correct and who would be wrong?

M.

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Maureen,

In my perspective, you're doing nothing but digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole.

Heaher was simply trying to say that there is a better way to state that something is "wrong" so that other people might better be able to learn that something is wrong, while I was trying to show her that there is NOTHING "wrong" with stating that an error or false belief is "wrong" no matter which words you or I use to say or explain how that error or false belief is "wrong"... as long as we don't personally attack someone or "ridicule" their beliefs... and I honestly don't see how I have ever done that.

If you really are in agreement with Heather, that there is a better way to show someone that something is wrong, so that other people might be better able to learn that something is wrong, why don't you start showing me the better way to teach the truth so that other people might be better able to learn that something is wrong, instead of simply telling me how wrong I am to simply state that something is wrong when I know for a fact it is wrong???

Huh? Why don't you do that?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Oct 3 2005, 05:06 PM

Defending is for when you are under attack, an 8 year old catholic kid who isn't even asking questions or doesn't know anything about the church, isn't attacking the church.  So when 20 or thirty members come out and attack his beliefs and then black list him until he "changes sides" that's not defending.

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I don't know what you are talking about.... Oh yes... you are talking about your familiy... they were asking you to take family sides... religion was just a side effect...

[Ray]

As a quick note, I feel no scorn or hatred towards anybody... not even toward people who believe in things which I know are not true.

And as a matter of fact, I am even willing to go out of my way and use a lot of my time to help people come to a knowledge of all truth.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Soulsearcher@Oct 3 2005, 05:51 PM

It wasn't family sides, it was the church or nothing.  My mothers side of the family with held love and compassion because i was not a member.  They made it very clear, the Church members in the family got it all, the very few like me were cast out at an age when we could not understand.  It was all based on religious prejudice. 

   

I don't believe that the  LDS Church is wrong, i think it is a path to god and am very happy for those who follow it to it's true end.  That being said, I have heard the voice of god, and he has said that he speaks in many different voices and has provided many different paths that lead to the final destination.   

   

You are right, I am a grown man and now see that the members i knew were cold and heartless, and i have seen many more like them that don't understand the meaning behind the message they are trying to spread. I have also seen those who preach love through action and found it to be much more effective.  No matter what Church there will always be the same extremes. 

   

THose around me who were persecuted by the members for not being members of the church were raised as rabid anti's.  The members who acted like they actually cared instead of trying to prove they were right are the ones who got me out of the anti mind set.  i have both types of members in my life now and I'll tell you the ones who live the word have more of my respect that those who only say the words.   

   

And I'd like to know how you can really tell me that experiences you had as a child had absolutely no effect on how you view the world today?  I'm not saying the only reason i won't join the Church is because of my experiences as a youth, but it laid the ground work.  The Catholic side accepted the LDS side of the family with out question and opened their arms wide, The LDS members had nothing but scorn and malice for the Catholic side.  As a youth it made quite an impression.

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I don't agree with the way you see and judge things... what some call meaness.. others would consider tough love...

As I was a child of a two mother home... being that my father's first wife died leaving 7 children... and me being the 8th child... being the first of the step mother's children... I know how hard life can get... surrounded by people who should have showed me love... but showed me a lot of prejudice...

I have gotten over it. I never have felt my family was bad... I realized it was their situation which dictated their perspective towards me... I can say I literally know how Joseph who was sold into Egypt felt... and I know how his brothers felt as well...

It is a matter of putting it into a more understanding way... which I can see you haven't been able to do yet...

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 3 2005, 04:19 PM

...while I was trying to show her that there is NOTHING "wrong" with stating that an error or false belief is "wrong" no matter which words you or I use to say or explain how that error or false belief is "wrong"... as long as we don't personally attack someone or "ridicule" their beliefs... and I honestly don't see how I have ever done that.

...that there is a better way to show someone that something is wrong, so that other people might be better able to learn that something is wrong, why don't you start showing me the better way to teach the truth so that other people might be better able to learn that something is wrong, instead of simply telling me how wrong I am to simply state that something is wrong when I know for a fact it is wrong???

First of all Ray, why is so important to you to tell people they are wrong? Why can't you just share your beliefs and be a good example and see where that leads?

Here is something from your own church's publication:

That knowledge helps us in relationships where there are differences that do matter—differences involving values, principles, truth, and the confirming religious experience we call testimony. We should hold to truth, but it should not be a barrier to tolerance and compassion and love. To accept and love others, we do not have to adopt their ideas or be condescending. When others differ from us in these essential matters, we must learn to understand that which separates people from their traditions. Good people can have mistaken beliefs.

Moreover, having truth in our possession, knowing righteous and true principles doesn’t automatically make a Latter-day Saint better or more righteous than others. It could have that effect—but it is living what we know, not knowing alone, that is really important. Joseph Smith taught us: “All the religious world is boasting of righteousness: It is the doctrine of the devil to retard the human mind, and hinder our progress, by filling us with self-righteousness. The nearer we get to our Heavenly Father, the more we will look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs. … If you would have God have mercy on you, have mercy on one another.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1977, page 241.)

The gospel teaches us not to condemn our brothers and sisters for their weaknesses and sins, but to show them by our lives how it is possible to escape sin through learning and living the truth. Satan must laugh when we condemn and criticize others or judge them unrighteously.

Ann N. Madsen, “Tolerance, the Beginning of Christlike Love,” Tambuli, Apr. 1989, 27

M.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 3 2005, 03:31 PM

LOL... sorry Maureen... I was just having a little fun at your expense... I really did mean to say Ray was a great guy... but I know you really aren't mean hearted... and rude...

You are right... we probably do sound condescending.... but then Christ Condescended... and I never really understood there are two kinds of condescention until I read about his kind of condescending to our level... trying to come to us where we were... and then showing us a better way... lifting us up... if we were willing.... you know?

Do you think it is possible we are just trying to do that...?? Or are we just acting all arragant and too hot to touch?

Please, in helping people find their way, whatever that might be, don't you believe that a good balance works best. Be firm in your words but also compassionate. IMO, Christ always showed balance.

M.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Christ always showed balance.

M.

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What His Whip had cotton balls on it instead of leather thongs?

[Heather]

I don't think Christ ever had a whip or leather thongs. I remember him healing with the touch of his hand, not smiting off ears with a sword.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Heather@Oct 3 2005, 06:47 PM

I don't think Christ ever had a whip or leather thongs.  I remember him healing with the touch of his hand, not smiting off ears with a sword.

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the cleansing of the temple... ring a bell?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I can't believe there is an extensive discussion going on here over whether or not it is acceptable to be rude, if you have good intentions

Still...nice to see some things never change