The Goal Of Our Faith

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red+Dec 18 2005, 07:29 PM-->

Originally posted by Snow@Dec 18 2005, 08:42 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Red@Dec 18 2005, 03:31 PM

In short, God is not the author of Evil (sin, death, suffering) because He gave us the capacity to love Him, i.e. Free Will.  More to come…

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I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

What I do know is that is a universe where God created EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING that exists was created by that god. If evil exists, it had a creator, the creator of everything.

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Here's what all that posting amounts to: God did NOT create evil, He made everything and he made it all "GOOD" (the Bible says so). Evil was NOT part of the original creation. Instead, Evil (sin, death and suffering) results from the abuse of our free-will, NOT an inevitable result of situations. In this system evil is subject to be terminated by God.

But in the LDS system evil was inevitable, meaning has no real control over it, and evil is necesarry for exaltion, implicated God as a participant in a system which relies on evil. Since evil (probation) is necesarry for exaltation, evil will continue to dominate on more worlds for the rest of eternity. Add this up and the LDS/God cannot or will not solve evil.

Snow, your ststement that "If evil exists, it had a creator, the creator of everything" is fallacious, and based on your own reasoning (it is not Biblical). It has one major hole: that when God made everything He made it good, therefore God is not the creator of evil. If you don't understand this then I don't think you've read your bible very much (or trusted it like you should).

Now seriously, if anyone has anything thoughtful to say then please do.

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Oh Red,

The logical conclusion of a theology whereby a god creates EVERYTHING - all life, all material, all personality, all knowledge, all natural laws, etc is that said god is the creator of EVERYTHING that he created, all pain, all suffering, all evil. You may be unfamiliar with the classical philosophical dilema but the dilema still exists and no one, no theologian, no philospher has ever solved it.

You certainly were not the first one ever to solve it just now.

Freewill might (might - and that is by no means an accepted truth) absolve God for the moral consequences of one personing committing evil for that person alone but it doesn't do anything God of the evil committed by that person against another person. God is prime cause of everything. He started the car, pointed it down hill and let it roll.

Your statement that God created everything good is, of course, logically false. If God didn't create it, it doesn't exist - that or God is not the creator of everything. Beside, don't you believe in some idea of original sin - that man is born with sin on his head - an enemy to God...

[Red]

And what is the LDS solution?

[Snow]

Man's essence is co-eternal with God.

[Ray]

Red,

All of God creations were good, in the beginning, but God did not create all of everything in existence, and God certainly did not create anything that was or will ever be evil.

Try to understand the account in Genesis with the idea that God gave all of us the freedom to choose to know both good and evil, while taking no responsibility whatever for our own individual choices to know or do what is evil.

[Red]

Originally posted by Snow@Dec 20 2005, 02:47 AM

Man's essence is co-eternal with God.

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Ok....

I'm waiting for other shoe to drop--explain how this both absolves God from being responsible for evil and also explain how it solves the problem of evil (or: why is LDS/God not responsible for evil, what does he plan to do about it)...........

[Guest sugarbay]

Originally posted by Red@Dec 19 2005, 07:00 PM

And what is the LDS solution?

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There must needs be oppositions in all things. How can we know joyif we do not experience sorrow. How do we know whatis good if we know not evil. It is laughable to even entertain the idea that Father created evil. He created someone who CHOSE to BE evil and He allows that to exist for this one important little detail: "...to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Moses1: 39.

Read the scriptures. What a concept.

B)

[Red]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 20 2005, 02:53 PM

Red,

All of God creations were good, in the beginning, but God did not create all of everything in existence, and God certainly did not create anything that was or will ever be evil. 

Try to understand the account in Genesis with the idea that God gave all of us the freedom to choose to know both good and evil, while taking no responsibility whatever for our own individual choices to know or do what is evil.

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I wish I could talk to you more, you make an honest effort to make a constructive argument. No matter how angry the points I make must make you, you do not resort to the screaming and name calling.

You said: "All of God['s] creations were good, in the beginning"

And I agree of course, but...

you then said: "God did not create all of everything in existence"

Here we part ways. Biblically speaking, God did create literally everything:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him [God/the Word]; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1-3, KJV).

Consider for a second, the word "made" in this passage. It is "ginomai" (Strong's G1096) in greek which means "to cause to be," not formed out of pre-existing material but to bring into being something that did not exist before. So everything that exists was brought into existence by God, that is the message the greek makes clear. The Bible states creation ex-nihilo explicitly, the JST does not alter this verse.

God even created Satan (then Lucifer): "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15).

This verse eliminates the possibility that evil came from some source above or outside of God. It did not come from God either, but from a being created by Him (created perfect in fact).

You said: "God certainly did not create anything that was or will ever be evil."

Ezekiel 28:15 refutes this idea. Lucifer was created perfect, he had free will which is another perfection, but he did sin and we now know him as the source of all evil--the father of lies. So while God does not create evil things, He does give his creation the option to become evil--this allows us to love and obey Him--God's creations can become evil if they so choose.

And in your last sentence... "Try to understand the account in Genesis with the idea that God gave all of us the freedom to choose to know both good and evil, while taking no responsibility whatever for our own individual choices to know or do what is evil."

...I take it that you mean "God takes no responsibilty..."? Just making sure, the wording threw me off a little. If this is what you meant then of course I agree, and this how I have always read Genesis, and is essentially the case I've been making.

But the difference in our thinking is that you believe man's essence is co-eternal with LDS/God, that he organized us spiritually. The bottom line of this seems to be that by "co-eternal" is meant that we inherently have free-will and LDS/God did not give it to us, neither can He take it away.

We are completely opposite in this area. Biblically, God did give us free-will, and by His good grace He has not chosen to take it away; though He could, and to an extent He has, in that we all sin even though we may not want to (Paul describes this in Romans). It is like a drug addiction God has subjected us to, showing us our futile state without Him in order to draw us back to Himself.

[prisonchaplain]

Snow says: Your statement that God created everything good is, of course, logically false. If God didn't create it, it doesn't exist - that or God is not the creator of everything. Beside, don't you believe in some idea of original sin - that man is born with sin on his head - an enemy to God

Sorry to jump in--especially since I have not read the entire string. But, here I go with both feet (hopefully they do not end up inserted in mouth)

The simple answer is that God created Satan with the capability of rebelling. He created Adam & Eve with the same ability. They chose to do so. Does that make God the creator of their decisions? Does the heavenly Father's foreknowledge of their decisions make him culpable? I don't know about you, but I'm not about to blame God for nuthin'

[Ray]

Red: Biblically speaking, God did create literally everything:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him [God/the Word]; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1-3, KJV).

Consider for a second, the word "made" in this passage. It is "ginomai" (Strong's G1096) in greek which means "to cause to be," not formed out of pre-existing material but to bring into being something that did not exist before. So everything that exists was brought into existence by God, that is the message the greek makes clear. The Bible states creation ex-nihilo explicitly, the JST does not alter this verse.

As the scriptures in the Bible state, God only created or “made” the things which were “made”. The Bible does not say that God created “everything” that “exists” or "existed".

For instance, if I “made” something for you, the “creation” which I “caused to be” would be something which had never been made before, even if I had made something exactly like it before, or even if I continued to make other things exactly like it.

Red: God even created Satan (then Lucifer): "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezekiel 28:15).

This verse eliminates the possibility that evil came from some source above or outside of God. It did not come from God either, but from a being created by Him (created perfect in fact).

As I said, everything God made or created was “good”, in the beginning, but that does not mean that everything God made was forced to remain good forever.

Red: You said: "God certainly did not create anything that was or will ever be evil."

My apologies. I did not use the correct words to reflect what I had in mind and there is no good reason why you should have been able to read my mind. What I meant was that God never created anything evil and that God will never create anything evil, ever. But that does not mean that what God created cannot choose to become evil.

Ezekiel 28:15 illustrates [the] idea [that what God created can choose to become evil]. Lucifer was created perfect, he had free will which is another perfection, but he did sin and we now know him as the source of all evil--the father of lies. So while God does not create evil things, He does give his creation the option to become evil--this allows us to love and obey Him--God's creations can become evil if they so choose.

Red: And in your last sentence... "Try to understand the account in Genesis with the idea that God gave all of us the freedom to choose to know both good and evil, while taking no responsibility whatever for our own individual choices to know or do what is evil."

...I take it that you mean "God takes no responsibilty..."? Just making sure, the wording threw me off a little. If this is what you meant then of course I agree, and this how I have always read Genesis, and is essentially the case I've been making.

Yes, that is what I meant, so I will now assume that we agree on this.

The difference in our thinking seems to be that I believe man's essence is co-eternal with [God], that he organized us spiritually from elements which have always existed.

Red: The bottom line of this seems to be that by "co-eternal" is meant that we inherently have free-will and [God] did not give it to us, neither can He take it away.

I have never said anything like this, and in fact I do believe God “gave” us our free-will.

Red: Biblically, God did give us free-will, and by His good grace He has not chosen to take it away; though He could, and to an extent He has, in that we all sin even though we may not want to (Paul describes this in Romans). It is like a drug addiction God has subjected us to, showing us our futile state without Him in order to draw us back to Himself.

I agree with this, although from the scriptures in the Bible it does not appear evident to me that God “gave” us our free-will in the garden of Eden. The record in Genesis simply states that God stated that he had given us free-will, without saying whether or not He hadn’t ever given it to us before.

[Snow]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Dec 20 2005, 05:05 PM

Snow says:  Your statement that God created everything good is, of course, logically false. If God didn't create it, it doesn't exist - that or God is not the creator of everything. Beside, don't you believe in some idea of original sin - that man is born with sin on his head - an enemy to God

Sorry to jump in--especially since I have not read the entire string.  But, here I go with both feet (hopefully they do not end up inserted in mouth)

The simple answer is that God created Satan with the capability of rebelling.  He created Adam & Eve with the same ability.  They chose to do so.  Does that make God the creator of their decisions?  Does the heavenly Father's foreknowledge of their decisions make him culpable?  I don't know about you, but I'm not about to blame God for nuthin'

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Saying you won't blame God does nothing to solve the logical dilema posed by your theology.

God didn't just create Satan and mankind with the capacity to sin. He created them in such a way that they would inevitably sin. They could not have done otherwise. He created their innate nature and all the circumstances, cause, influences and motivations and physical realities and mental faculties that inexorably lead to evil.

If I go into a dark theater and light a torch and yell fire - well, I didn't make people panic by mistake, stampede the exits and trample the old women and children - they all decided to panic on their own but I am still responsible.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Snow@Dec 20 2005, 08:15 PM

Saying you won't blame God does nothing to solve the logical dilema posed by your theology.

God didn't just create Satan and mankind with the capacity to sin. He created them in such a way that they would inevitably sin. They could not have done otherwise. He created their innate nature and all the circumstances, cause, influences and motivations and physical realities and mental faculties that inexorably lead to evil.

That might be someone's theology. It's probably the teachings of Calvinism, with its predestination. However, it is not mine, nor those who espouse "free will." Satan, Adam and Eve did not have to sin. They did not have to rebel. They chose to do so, and God the Father was ready for a course of events to follow. If sin is truly inevitable, then free will is a false teaching.

If I go into a dark theater and light a torch and yell fire - well, I didn't make people panic by mistake, stampede the exits and trample the old women and children - they all decided to panic on their own but I am still responsible.

Yes you are. And, I look forward to seeing you in chapel when that happens.

Seriously, though. That scenario is the standard given for the limitations of free speech. You cannot yell fire in a crowded theater because the threat your speech poses to public safety far outweighs the potential benefit of granting you liberty in this area.

God did not create such an inevitable set of circumstances. Adam and Eve are in the Garden. They have all that they need. They have meaningful work. They have regular communion with God. Satan tempts them with independence and rebellion, and they bite--literally. They didn't have to.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Red@Dec 20 2005, 04:33 PM

Biblically speaking, God did create literally everything:

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You ought be more accurate with your wording. I'm sure you meant to say that in your specific interpretation of the Bible, God did create [make from nothing] everything.

It goes without saying that I don't find your argument persuasive.

What do you suppose the early Christians and early Jews thought?

[Red]

Originally posted by Snow@Dec 20 2005, 10:15 PM

Saying you won't blame God does nothing to solve the logical dilema posed by your theology.

God didn't just create Satan and mankind with the capacity to sin. He created them in such a way that they would inevitably sin. They could not have done otherwise. He created their innate nature and all the circumstances, cause, influences and motivations and physical realities and mental faculties that inexorably lead to evil.

If I go into a dark theater and light a torch and yell fire - well, I didn't make people panic by mistake, stampede the exits and trample the old women and children - they all decided to panic on their own but I am still responsible.

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Snow,

You are saying these things without supporting them in any way. Prove that Satan must have inevtibly sinned (assuming that is what you actually believe, because I'm not sure if you're explaining LDS theology or critiquing the non-LDS system).

Also you continue to compare the temptation in Eden to situations that are completely different (i.e. leaving porn on the table, yelling fire in a theater). Prove (or at least explain to some extent) that these these situations were like Eden and that the same principles apply.

Third, you have avoided this question regarding your statement "Man's essence is co-eternal with God.":

Explain how this both absolves God from being responsible for evil and also explain how it solves the problem of evil (or: why is LDS/God not responsible for evil, what does he plan to do about it)...........

And no, by "Biblically speaking" I don't mean "my interpretation" but simply what the Bible plainly says, no more or less than that. What do YOU think the early Jews and Christians thought about "ex-nihilo?"

I'll bet everyone's shopping right now and I'm the only twirp obsessed enough to post. anyway, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL!!!

12/23/05

[Snow]

Bold=Red,Dec 23 2005, 04:31 PM]

Snow,

You are saying these things without supporting them in any way. Prove that Satan must have inevtibly sinned (assuming that is what you actually believe, because I'm not sure if you're explaining LDS theology or critiquing the non-LDS system).

I actually don't know how to show that man and Satan must unavoidably sin, I just believe it as a matter of faith but I offer this: God does what he does for a reason. That God and man sin is/was not an unknown random chance. He designed it all, at least in your theology, and it comes out the way he wanted it. If the point that you are trying to make is that sin is unavoidable, then statistical probability would tell us that some one or many of the billions and billions that have lived would be sinless. But Christians don't believe that. We believe that only Christ was sinless. (Though the Bible does say Job was perfect).

So 1. God's plans go the way he wants them to, and 2. No one is sinless, 3. Sin is part of God's plan.

Also you continue to compare the temptation in Eden to situations that are completely different (i.e. leaving porn on the table, yelling fire in a theater). Prove (or at least explain to some extent) that these these situations were like Eden and that the same principles apply.

I am barely even addressing Eden or Satan for that matter. My point, for the 3rd time, is that God, in your belief, created everything, all the personalities, all the physical realities, all the mental faculties, etc, etc, etc. He designed it all and is so has ultimate responsiblity for it all.

Third, you have avoided this question regarding your statement "Man's essence is co-eternal with God.":Explain how this both absolves God from being responsible for evil and also explain how it solves the problem of evil (or: why is LDS/God not responsible for evil, what does he plan to do about it)...........

I thought is was self-evident. If God did not create man's essence, he is not responsible for man's essential nature. If man's essential nature inevitably leads to some behavior, then it is man and not God who is ultimately responsible. And what God is doing about it is providing us a mortality to work out our salvation by choosing between good and evil, accepting Christ as the Savior (who atones for our sins) and obedience to eternal law.

And no, by "Biblically speaking" I don't mean "my interpretation" but simply what the Bible plainly says, no more or less than that. What do YOU think the early Jews and Christians thought about "ex-nihilo?"

Don't be coy. Of course it is your interpretation. The text does not plainly agree with you, you just interpret it to mean that it agrees with you. I'm not a child so please raise the level of debate.

Creation from Unformed Matter

The idea that there are multiple Divine Beings who have material bodies with human form is sharply at odds with the axiom of the theologians that God's "Essence" is "wholly other" than the rest of the universe. This assumption on the part of mainstream Christians is based on the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo - creation from nothing. In his 1990 Presidential address to the British Association for Jewish Studies, Peter Hayman asserted the following:

Nearly all recent studies on the origin of the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo have come to the conclusion that this doctrine is not native to Judaism, is nowhere attested in the Hebrew Bible, and probably arose in Christianity in the second century C.E. in the course of its fierce battle with Gnosticism. The one scholar who continues to maintain that the doctrine is native to Judaism, namely Jonathan Goldstein, thinks that it first appears at the end of the first century C.E., but has recently conceded the weakness of his position in the course of debate with David Winston.61

The Apostle Peter was quite explicit about his belief in creation from a watery chaos, rather than from nothingness. He wrote, "There were heavens and earth long ago, created by God's word out of water and with water." (2 Peter 3:5 NEB) The background for this passage is the first two verses of Genesis: "In the beginning of creation…the earth was without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss, and a mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters." (Genesis 1:1-2 NEB) David Winston writes that the Rabbis presupposed the same watery chaos. For instance, he notes that Mekilta, Shirta 8 states that "to make a roof man requires wood, stones, dirt, and water, whereas God has made a roof for his world out of water. God's first act of creation thus presupposes the existence of water."62 Similarly, the Sefer Yesira states, "He formed substance from chaos and made it with fire and it exists, and he hewed out great columns from intangible air."63 In the Bereshit Rabba we find, "R. Huna said,…'If it were not written explicitly in Scripture, it would not be possible to say it: God created the heaven and the earth. From the earth was chaos, etc.'"64

However, the interpretation of some of the early texts can be confusing, and indeed, a few seemingly contradict creation from chaos. In the Apocrypha, 2 Maccabees asserts that "God made [the sky and the earth] out of nothing, and…man comes into being in the same way." (2 Maccabees 7:28 NEB) On the other hand, the Wisdom of Solomon says, "For thy almighty hand, which created the world out of formless matter, was not without further resource." (Wisdom of Solomon 11:17 NEB) Paul seemed to imply creation out of nothing: "God…summons things that are not yet in existence as if they already were" (Romans 4:17 NEB), and yet we saw that Peter's language recalled the Genesis account of creation from a watery chaos. Indeed, in the very same verse Paul wrote that God "fashioned" (Greek katertisthai = "adjusted, put in order again, restored, repaired") the universe, but in such a way that "the visible came forth from the invisible." (Hebrews 11:3 NEB) The second-century Pastor of Hermas asserted that God "made out of nothing the things that exist,"65 but in another passage clearly presupposed creation from a watery chaos: "By His strong word [He] has fixed the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth upon the waters."66

Gerhard May has convincingly shown that where these early texts say God created out of "nothing" or "non-being", etc., they were using a common ancient idiom to say that "something new, something that was not there before, comes into being; whether this something new comes through a change in something that was already there, or whether it is something absolutely new, is beside the question."67 For instance, the Greek writer Xenophon wrote that parents "bring forth their children out of non-being'.68 Philo of Alexandria wrote that Moses and Plato were in agreement in accepting a pre-existent material, but also that God brings things "out of nothing into being" or "out of non-being".69 Therefore, in view of this common usage, and the many explicit statements by ancient authors regarding the pre-existent matter, we must rule out a belief in creatio ex nihilo unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.

We do not find such explicit statements anywhere until the mid-second century with the Gnostic teacher Basilides and later the Christian apologists Tatian and Theophilus of Antioch.70 Even as late as the turn of the third century, Tertullian had to take the more ancient usage into account when arguing for the new doctrine. "And even if they were made out of some (previous) matter, as some will have it, they are even thus out of nothing, because they were not what they are."71

Given the state of the evidence, we can be fairly certain that when Joseph Smith said matter is eternal, and that God fashioned the earth from pre-existent matter72, he was restoring the earliest Jewish Christian belief. [barry Bickmore]

61 Peter Hayman, "Monotheism - A Misused Word in Jewish Studies?", Journal of Jewish Studies 42 (1991), 1-15. See also Jonathan Goldstein, "The Origins of the Doctrine of Creation Ex Nihilo", Journal of Jewish Studies 35 (1984), 127-135; Jonathan Goldstein, "Creation Ex Nihilo: Recantations and Restatements", Journal of Jewish Studies f38 (1987), 187-194; David Winston, "Creation Ex Nihilo Revisited: A Reply to Jonathan Goldstein", Journal of Jewish Studies 37 (1986), 88-91.

62 Winston, "Creation Ex Nihilo Revisited: A Reply to Jonathan Goldstein",

63 Sefer Yesira 20, quoted in Hayman, "Monotheism - A misused Word in Jewish Studies?", 2.

64 Bereshit Rabba, quoted in Hayman, "Monotheism - A misused Word in Jewish Studies?", 2, emphasis in original.

65 Pastor of Hermas, Vision 1:1, in ANF 2:9, brackets in original.

66 Pastor of Hermas, Vision 1:3, in ANF 2:10.

67 Gerhard May, Creatio Ex Nihilo: The Doctrine of 'Creation out of Nothing' in Early Christian Thought, tr. A.S. Worrall, (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1994), 8.

68 Xenophon, quoted in May, Creatio Ex Nihilo, 8.

69 May, Creatio Ex Nihilo, 9-22.

70 Young, F., "'Creatio ex Nihilo': A Context for the Emergence of the Christian Doctrine of Creation," Scottish Journal of Theology 44 (1991), 141. The one text that might bear negatively on this view is from Rabban Gamaliel II (ca. 90/110 A.D.) A philosopher challenged him by stating that God was indeed a great artist, but he had also found pre-existent material to help him. To this Gamaliel responds that all this primitive material is created by God. May, Creatio Ex Nihilo, 23. However, David Winston has pointed out that Gamaliel likely reacted negatively to the philosopher's statement because he used the verb sy' to imply that God was "actively assisted" in the creation. Winston also provides prima facie evidence that the Rabbis did not hold to any doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. Winston, "Creation Ex Nihilo Revisited: A Reply to Jonathan Goldstein", 91.

Recently a graduate student at Marquette University, Paul Copan, has challenged the notion that creatio ex nihilo is a post-Biblical invention in an Evangelical scholarly forum. Paul Copan, "Is Creatio Ex Nihilo a Post-Biblical Invention? An Examination of Gerhard May's Proposal", Trinity Journal 17NS (1996), 77-93. However, Copan does not deal with May's primary evidence - the description by ancient authors of creation as "out of nothing" where pre-existent matter is clearly presupposed. And while he cites Jonathan Goldstein's views, he nowhere mentions the fact that Goldstein has conceded the weakness of his position in debate with David Winston.

71 Tertullian, Against Marcion 2:5, in ANF 3:301.

72 TPJS 350-352.

[Red]

Snow, Thank-you for your reply and the research.

I’ll respond to the second half of your post first. Seeing all the scholars you pointed out comparing the different biblical texts relating to the origin of matter, some seeming to show ex-nihilo and others possibly showing pre-existent matter, I couldn’t help but think:

Why not just say that God created ex-nihilo and then formed the unformed matter? That idea would seem to me to conform the best to scripture.

From a scientific perspective, a problem with believing in eternal unformed matter is that matter is subject to entropy, it would have disintegrated into nothingness ages ago. And if God did not bring it into being, what power could he possibly have to stop the entropy (himself also having originated from unformed matter, would He Himself then also be subject to entropy? You would say no, but think about it.).

Also, if there is matter, time is passing. I am not saying that time is a measure of motion (that’s a whole other tangent), but if there is a piece of matter then time must be passing. I am a layman big time in this area, but the point is this, that if matter has always been around then time has always been passing, but time cannot have always been passing. Why? Because it is impossible to have an infinite number of events. Sounds strange, but imagine that I had an infinite amount of marbles and then I gave you half, we would both still have an infinite amount of marbles—a mathematical absurdity. Same with events in time, so if time itself had to have had a beginning—if it cannot stretch infinitely into the past—then matter cannot be eternal either, and also had to have a beginning, a point when it began to exist where it did not before.

All that is mostly tidbits I’ve picked up along the way. I love the origins debate but it is not pertinent to our eternal destiny, so I don’t plan to post on it anymore. Not that I’m whimping out on you, but the real issue does not necessarily involve matter…

[Red]

…when we are talking about whether or not man’s essence is eternal (i.e. the same as God’s) then we are definitely talking about something that relates to our destiny.

You wrote:

I actually don't know how to show that man and Satan must unavoidably sin, I just believe it as a matter of faith…

You don’t know how to show it and yet it is a presupposition which is so key to your theology. For you, this belief is the only thing which keeps God free from being responsible for evil. Yet you take it on faith? Faith in what? Is it written anywhere in any LDS publication? Is it just an idea you have, but believe must be true because for you it makes Mormonism work?

This belief that man must inevitably sin seems to fly in the face of the official LDS doctrine of Free Agency.

Also, it almost sounds as if man was fallen in a way even before the Fall, if so, then why fall—unfallen man should not be a natural sinner, someone who must inevitably sin.

But here again, is a verse I stand on:

“…God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13, KJV).

Do you see how a God like this leaves us no excuse for our sins? Do you see how He in fact does ensure that every temptation is avoidable? Now, do you think this same God (who is always the same) acted any differently with Adam and Eve or Satan in their situations?

…but I offer this: God does what he does for a reason. That God and man sin is/was not an unknown random chance…

Of course it was not random. Adam made a decision and he sinned—God always knew it would happen and so planned accordingly, perverting evil into good as I like to say (Genesis 50:20), setting in motion events that would lead to our salvation.

Side note: is this a typo?: “That God and man sin…” I hope it’s a typo, otherwise it might be a very interesting to see you make the case that God sins(ed) just like we do (did).

[Red]

He designed it all, at least in your theology, and it comes out the way he wanted it. If the point that you are trying to make is that sin is unavoidable, then statistical probability would tell us that some one or many of the billions and billions that have lived would be sinless. But Christians don't believe that. We believe that only Christ was sinless. (Though the Bible does say Job was perfect).

I think you meant to say that my point was that sin is “avoidable,” not unavoidable. Now if sin is avoidable, that does not mean it is impossible to do—Adam and Eve of course found that one out. Adam fell by his own volition and the consequence was that “all have died in Adam.” So we today are in a different position than Adam or Lucifer; we are fallen even before we sin but they were perfect and had no predisposition to sin (a point which I can rehash if you like). WE find ourselves in and interesting situation: few people, believers or not, do NOT usually want to sin, yet we do sin whether we really want to or not. C.S. Lewis said we are the strangest of creatures, because unlike other animals who know what to do and do it, we do not. WE know that what we do is often wrong yet we do it anyway, even if we vow not to do it again.

So since the Fall, it seems that our free will has been compromised. Paul says that we are “slaves to sin.” Take this along with “god always provides an escape” and we can say that in our fallen state everyone sins but not all of the time; sin is avoidable but not everyone avoids it; regardless of our sinful nature inherited from Adam God gives us the chance to not sin and so holds us accountable when we do.

Perhaps you’ll put all that under “blah blah blah” but I’m just explaining the position for it own sake. But the bottom line is that no human is sinless, but only God Himself.

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So 1. God's plans go the way he wants them to, and 2. No one is sinless, 3. Sin is part of God's plan.

1. I absolutely agree. But what if God’s plan is not necessarily that we always obey Him (wait don’t jump on that) or even that we disobey Him (as LDS theology teaches). Instead what if He desires that we obey Him freely and out of love, and plans to punish or reward us as we obey or disobey? Isaiah 1:18-20 would show that:

“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow…if ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land; but if ye refuse and rebel ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”

2. Yes, no one is sinless…except God. “Jesus said unto him [the rich young ruler] Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God” (Mark 10:18).

So, is Jesus calling himself not good here—a sinner? No, if he had ever sinned (in any life) he would not be a spotless sacrifice. But since He is the spotless sacrifice he is good, and if only God (not a God, but God Himself) is good then Jesus claims here to be God (not a rank or title but the being Himself). Jesus is also refuting the man’s notion that salvation can be gained by works (read verse 17) by refuting the deeper misconception that people are basically good, or at least that some can be. Because if man is basically good then we can surely overcome sin, we need only pick ourselves up and resolve to do it and eventually we’ll all get there. But Jesus says that we are not good, so if we are not good we could never inherit eternal life based on anything we do. This is also shown in verses 21-22. Selling all his possessions would require a profound change of heart and a trust of trust in Jesus—a conversion. After which he would have been given the privilege to follow the Lord.

Of course, the man turned away. Did Jesus fail? 2 Peter 3:9 says, “the Lord is…not willing that any should perish…” But many have, do and will perish. So did God fail? No, His will/plan was to give us a choice and reward or punish us as we acted, save or condemn us as we believed or disbelieved (John 3:16-18).

Bottom line: God is sinless (i.e. good). WE are sinful.

3. Yes sin is part of God’s plan, but not in the way you are pushing it. In LDS theology He actually intended that we sin, even though he said not to. We cannot trust a God who instructs us to do good but intends us to do evil and then awards us for the evil done.

Instead, sin is only part of God’s plan in so much that we brought it into the equation. Sin has a part in God’s plan in that He will let us face its consequences for a time, allow us to repent of it, and then do away with it forever. God perverts evil into good (Genesis 50:20).

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I am barely even addressing Eden or Satan for that matter.

Well, yes you are referring to Eden and/or Satan’s rebellion because that’s what the whole question of evil, sin and free will boils down to. It is unavoidable.

My point, for the 3rd time, is that God, in your belief, created everything, all the personalities, all the physical realities, all the mental faculties, etc, etc, etc. He designed it all and is so has ultimate responsiblity for it all

In my belief He CANNOT be responsible for evil because He originally gave all personalities the ability to choose good and not sin; He also arranged all physical reality in such a way that we will always have the option to escape sin.

However, your belief (you stated here and I thank you for it) does lead to a God who is responsible for evil and unable to solve it:

If God did not create man's essence, he is not responsible for man's essential nature. If man's essential nature inevitably leads to some behavior, then it is man and not God who is ultimately responsible. And what God is doing about it is providing us a mortality to work out our salvation by choosing between good and evil, accepting Christ as the Savior (who atones for our sins) and obedience to eternal law.

By believing that God did not create your essence, you have denied His sovereignty over you life. You are telling Him that you are a being independent of Him. Think about it. Sure, he formed you, but you’re telling you are your own person apart from Him. You have brought Him down to a manageable level equal to you. Sure, he farther ahead of you, but that is really the only difference. LDS God is God by might, not right. Think about it.

If man’s eternal essence was naturally inclined to sin, then God knowing this is responsible for their inevitable sins. There is a difference between (Bible God) knowing that humans will and will not sin at various points in time, and (LDS God) knowing that human essence is flawed in such a way that it absolutely will sin, forming it into a person doomed to sin, telling him not to sin but wanting him to do so, and then rewarding him and his decendants with a chance at exaltation/or the rank of a God, when he does finally sin.

If in LDS theology God was once formed from this essence by his father God, then how could God ever have ascended and conquer sin if his inevitable tendency was to sin—i.e. to go the opposite direction? How could Jesus have ever lived a sinless life? How could we ever succeed in obeying the eternal law if the very essence were formed from dictates that we do the opposite? And if “God did not create man’s [our] essential nature” and did not give us a nature which “inevitably leads to some behavior [i.e. sin]” then what power could he have to remove the sinful nature from us? How could LDS God ever raise us “incorruptible” as the Bible says the true God is able to do?

And if man’s eternal essence is inevitably sinful then the problem of evil will never be solved because when more people are formed from that essence and placed on more worlds they will only perpetrate more sin, death and suffering.

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So is this discussion over? We've probably made our points several times over and gotten so deep that no one wants to jump in, but hey, any takers? Any loose ends to tie up?

either way, I thank you all for your posting.