Before The Beginning...

[DisRuptive1]

I'm scared of Heaven. What are we going to do after we've done everything? How are we going to die when we just want to relax and stop working? Remember, I'm thinking about after we've done EVERYTHING. If you can think of anything else to do, in my scenario we've already done it. So what do we do?

How can eternity exist if there is a beginning? If it goes forever one way it must go forever another way. Where the heII did we all come from? What happened before the pre-existence? Where did Heavenly Father come from? Who created him and who created his creator?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Oct 5 2005, 11:21 AM

I'm scared of Heaven.  What are we going to do after we've done everything?  How are we going to die when we just want to relax and stop working?  Remember, I'm thinking about after we've done EVERYTHING.  If you can think of anything else to do, in my scenario we've already done it.  So what do we do?

How can eternity exist if there is a beginning?  If it goes forever one way it must go forever another way.  Where the heII did we all come from?  What happened before the pre-existence?  Where did Heavenly Father come from?  Who created him and who created his creator?

←

LOL... Don't you think you should strt gettin gthis life right before you start worrying abou the next?

It ticks me off no end when my kids start making their lists for Christmas... in July... I tell them that I am going to get through all the holidays before Christmas... and then I will worry about Christmas..

You sound so much like me kids...

Don't count or worry about your chicks before they hatch...

[Ray]

Disruptive: What are we going to do after we've done everything?

Ray: Please define “everything”, because I don’t think it is possible to ever be finished.

Disruptive: How are we going to die when we just want to relax and stop working?

Ray: I think you could have answered your own question if you had asked:

“How are we ever going to [stop living] when we just want to [be lazy] and [do nothing]?”

And btw, I enjoy relaxing on occasions, but if I relaxed all the time I would never get anything done. And even so, when I do relax, I am usually thinking about something or pondering what I am going to do next.

Disruptive: Remember, I'm thinking about after we've done EVERYTHING.

Ray: As I said, I think it’s impossible to do everything.

For instance, after we raise 1 child, we can go on to raise 2 children, and from there to 3, and to 4, and to however many others. And since each child is different, because each child is a different person, we can’t honestly say that we’ve done everything even in regards to raising children after raising 1 or 2 or even 1000 children. But you could say that we could do everything in regards to raising children by raising an “infinite” number of children, but it would take quite a while to raise that many and we would have plenty to do until then.

Disruptive: If you can think of anything else to do, in my scenario we've already done it. So what do we do?

Ray: If you could live the best day of your life today, would you then want to end your life tomorrow? Why not just keep living doing whatever you do that makes you happy?

Disruptive: How can eternity exist if there is a beginning?

Ray: There never was a beginning to eternity. Eternity has always been.

Disruptive: If it goes forever one way it must go forever another way.

Ray: Exactly.

Disruptive: Where … did we all come from?

Ray: Simple answer: from our parents.

Disruptive: What happened before the pre-existence?

Ray: There never was a “pre-existence”, and if you’re referring to our “pre-mortal” life, I’ll say that before we were mortal we were immortal, just as we will be immortal again after going through this stage of our lives.

Disruptive: Where did Heavenly Father come from?

Ray: From his parents.

Disruptive: Who created him and who created his creator?

Ray: There never was a Son without a Father, and every Father is a Son of a Father. And if you don’t believe me, ask Him.

[k3n54n]

I presume that time is temporal, and that, after our temporal existence, time will not have a meaning. Similarly, in the preexistence, time did not have a meaning. I may be wrong on this, of course, but that is my thinking. I can't say I really understand what existence would be like without time, but that isn't for me to worry about at this stage.

[DisRuptive1]

It is definately possible to do everything. As to raising kids eventually we'll have raised so many that certain qualities will overlap. We are all unique and all special, just like everyone else. The one's who aren't unique and special therefore become unique and special and even if they are never unique then they are like everyone else which means they aren't unique enough to raise since child #100,456 was already like him.

How can you ponder when you've pondered everything? Remember, I said what are we to do after we've done everything. After we've thought everything, after we've had every kid, after we've learned everything, etc?

[Ray]

How can we already have had every child if we continue to have children?

How can we already have raised every child if we continue to raise children?

How can we have already thought of everything about children we haven't even had or raised yet?

HOW?

Please explain how that is possible, instead of simply telling me that it is, because I still do not see how that is possible.

[DisRuptive1]

Not all children are completely different from one another. When you have had so many eventually the new ones start growing up exactly like previous children.

Am I to assume, Ray, that all we are to do after we die and have done everything else, is pop out children? What are we to do when the wife finally says, "Stop!!!"?

[Ray]

I am saying that

there will never be a time

when we have done everything

because

there will always be a time

when we have not done or thought something yet

And the example I offered to illustrate my point was that

if we always continue to have and raise children

then

there will never be a time when we have totally stopped having or raising children

thus

there will never be a time when we will be totally finished doing that

And please notice that this is only one of the examples I could have mentioned to illustrate my point.

But, to be totally frank with you, I think being able to have and raise children is one of the greatest keys or blessings to being able to always enjoy eternity, because if there ever comes a time when we would not be able to enjoy having or raising children, then there would come a time when we would be totally finished raising children and it will only be other people who will continue to have and raise children

And btw, I include grandparents and great grandparents, etc, as people who are or at least can be involved in continuing to enjoy the raising of children... as well as babysitters and nannys and other people who will help us to raise our children.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Oct 5 2005, 10:21 AM

I'm scared of Heaven.  What are we going to do after we've done everything?  How are we going to die when we just want to relax and stop working?  Remember, I'm thinking about after we've done EVERYTHING.  If you can think of anything else to do, in my scenario we've already done it.  So what do we do?

How can eternity exist if there is a beginning?  If it goes forever one way it must go forever another way.  Where the heII did we all come from?  What happened before the pre-existence?  Where did Heavenly Father come from?  Who created him and who created his creator?

←

The problem here is thinking only of the destination and not the journey. Happiness is not getting to what you want but wanting the means to get there.

The idea is not to do all the things necessary to get to heaven but learning to love doing the things that will get you there.

The Traveler

[Heather]

How many people are on the earth...have been on the earth...and how many of them area exactly alike? Even identical twins are different. I get what you're saying though, but I don't think we'll ever get the answers until the next life. Even if we were to get the answers, I don't think we'd be able to comprehend them.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Heather@Oct 6 2005, 11:02 PM

How many people are on the earth...have been on the earth...and how many of them area exactly alike?  Even identical twins are different.  I get what you're saying though, but I don't think we'll ever get the answers until the next life.  Even if we were to get the answers, I don't think we'd be able to comprehend them.

←

Heh, no two people are exactly alike because of the simple fact that they are two separate persons. Or in other words, it is impossible for two people to be exactly alike because they would need to be the same exact person. Or in other words, they would need to be one person, instead of two.

And even if two people were exactly alike in attributes and purpose, they would still have separate experiences, because no experience is exactly the same because they would take place on separate occassions, and no two occassions can be exactly the same because one happens at one time and another happens at another time.

And btw, I don't believe we need to wait for any time to be able to understand anything. All we need is the intelligence to understand, and God is always there to help us with that.

[k3n54n]

Ray says:

Heh, no two people are exactly alike because of the simple fact that they are two separate persons. Or in other words, it is impossible for two people to be exactly alike because they would need to be the same exact person. Or in other words, they would need to be one person, instead of two.

Does this apply to electrons, as well? That is, are there any two electrons which are exactly alike? My thought would be yes. Humans are clearly more complex than electrons, and I do not believe that there are any two people who are exactly alike, but, should the number grow large enough, I can see it as a possibility.

[Ray]

Originally posted by k3n54n@Oct 7 2005, 02:17 PM

Ray says:

Heh, no two people are exactly alike because of the simple fact that they are two separate persons.  Or in other words, it is impossible for two people to be exactly alike because they would need to be the same exact person.  Or in other words, they would need to be one person, instead of two.

Does this apply to electrons, as well?  That is, are there any two electrons which are exactly alike?  My thought would be yes.  Humans are clearly more complex than electrons, and I do not believe that there are any two people who are exactly alike, but, should the number grow large enough, I can see it as a possibility.

←

You would still have two, and not one, thus they would not be exactly alike.

Heh, or think of it this way.

Father says: Didn't we just raise this child, dear?

Mother says: No, dear, we did not. What makes you say that?

Father says: Well, this child is exactly like that other one over there.

Mother says: Well, dear, he may be exactly like that child, but he is not the same child.

Father says: So you mean we need to raise this child too?

Mother says: Yes, dear.

Father says: Even though this child is exactly like that one over there?

Mother says: Yes, dear.

Father says: Well, maybe this one will turn out to be different.

Mother says: He already is, dear. This is the second child we have had like this, not the first, so there is already a difference.

And btw, the Father in the depiction above does not represent our heavenly Father, because our heavenly Father would already know all of that.

[k3n54n]

Ray says:

Heh, no two people are exactly alike because of the simple fact that they are two separate persons.  Or in other words, it is impossible for two people to be exactly alike because they would need to be the same exact person.  Or in other words, they would need to be one person, instead of two.

I ask:

Does this apply to electrons, as well?  That is, are there any two electrons which are exactly alike?  My thought would be yes.  Humans are clearly more complex than electrons, and I do not believe that there are any two people who are exactly alike, but, should the number grow large enough, I can see it as a possibility.

Ray replies:

You would still have two, and not one, thus they would not be exactly alike.

I suppose your theory is that if two things are in a different place, they are not exactly alike. It is simple enough to note that the location is different. Presuming people are fermions, not bosons, then no two can occupy the same space, so you would be correct. For bosons, however, there would be no difference. They can have the exact same state and energy levels and location. Are they still different?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by k3n54n@Oct 7 2005, 07:36 PM

Presuming people are fermions, not bosons, then no two can occupy the same space, so you would be correct.  For bosons, however, there would be no difference.  They can have the exact same state and energy levels and location.  Are they still different?

←

Did you call me a name somewhere in there? I've never been called a boson before, by anyone. The nerve of some people!

[k3n54n]

ApostleKnight says:

Did you call me a name somewhere in there? I've never been called a boson before, by anyone. The nerve of some people!

LOL.

Now, come, ApostleKnight. I never called you a boson. I called you a fermion.

[Ray]

Originally posted by k3n54n@Oct 7 2005, 05:36 PM

Ray says:

Heh, no two people are exactly alike because of the simple fact that they are two separate persons.  Or in other words, it is impossible for two people to be exactly alike because they would need to be the same exact person.  Or in other words, they would need to be one person, instead of two.

I ask:

Does this apply to electrons, as well?  That is, are there any two electrons which are exactly alike?  My thought would be yes.  Humans are clearly more complex than electrons, and I do not believe that there are any two people who are exactly alike, but, should the number grow large enough, I can see it as a possibility.

Ray replies:

You would still have two, and not one, thus they would not be exactly alike.

k3n54n replies:

I suppose your theory is that if two things are in a different place, they are not exactly alike. It is simple enough to note that the location is different.  Presuming people are fermions, not bosons, then no two can occupy the same space, so you would be correct.  For bosons, however, there would be no difference.  They can have the exact same state and energy levels and location.  Are they still different?

←

Yes, "they" are still different, and the fact that you are referring to them as "they" shows that "they" are not exactly the same, otherwise "they" would be "it" or "one".

And btw, I am not saying it is impossible for two or more things to be so much alike that you can refer to them as being "one" in some way, but if two or more things have anything at all different in their identities, then they are not exactly the same in every particular.

For instance, we say that God is one, and that is true in some way, but the fact that there is God the Father and God the Son indicates that the Father and Son are not exactly the same in every particular. Thus "they" are two as one in some way.