Guest curvette Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 17 2004, 03:17 PM [Why would something like that disturb him? What possible difference could it make? Mainly because he's been studying the history of early Native Americans. He knows that people didn't appear in the Americas until many tens of thousands of years after they appeared in Africa, the middle east and Asia. He's very cerebral. He's been taught a lot of things in Seminary that don't make sense to him. This is just the latest one. He may be able to buy that Mesopotamia is the cradle of mankind (although evidence strongly points to Africa), but certainly not the Americas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by curvette+Feb 17 2004, 11:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 17 2004, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Feb 16 2004, 05:07 PM I'm curious, with the ever changing landscape of Mormon doctrine, do Mormons still believe that Adam lived in America? I don't ever hear this taught at church, but my son was taught this in Seminary this year. Also that Noah lived in America before the flood. He was quite disturbed by the teaching and didn't believe a word of it. Which part was he disturbed by? That "Noah (really) lived" or that there really was a flood or that Adam lived in America? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by curvette@Feb 17 2004, 03:32 PM Mainly because he's been studying the history of early Native Americans. He knows that people didn't appear in the Americas until many tens of thousands of years after they appeared in Africa, the middle east and Asia. He's very cerebral. He's been taught a lot of things in Seminary that don't make sense to him. This is just the latest one. He may be able to buy that Mesopotamia is the cradle of mankind (although evidence strongly points to Africa), but certainly not the Americas. Basically everything in the OT before Abraham violated the laws of physics, and space and time. If Noah could fit 2 of every animal into that boat, Adam could have lived in Missouri, and there could have been an extremely fast continental drift that split the continent into 7 pieces in 40 days and 40 nights.By the way, congratulations on having a son that can think logically enough to doubt a few Bible stories. Any advice for a future father? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by TheProudDuck@ Feb 17 2004, 02:58 PM Ray -- There's no indication that D&C 107 and 116 are referring to the same place. Just as there are two distinct and different places named "Bountiful" in the Book of Mormon (i.e. in Arabia and America), why couldn't there be more than one place named Adam-ondi-Ahman? Namely, one place for Adam to judge his people the first time around (in Genesis) and another at the end of days?In fact, the text of Sections 107 and 116 themselves lend support to the conclusion that they're different places. Section 107 refers to Adam-ondi-Ahman as a valley. Section 116 calls it a hill. (Section 117 calls it "mountains.") Which is it -- a valley, hill, or mountain? One place can't be all three.Heh, am I getting credit for something I didn’t say again?Oh well, since I’m posting, I might as well share my opinion on the matter, huh.I agree with antishock on this one, if I’m correct in stating that he also believes that Adam dwelt in the land we now know as Missouri. My reasoning is supported by all the scriptures that have already been cited along with Joseph F. Smith’s answer in the book, “Answer’s to Gospel Questions”. I also have the idea that America is the most choice land on all the Earth, for several different reasons, and that this land has been reserved for God’s chosen people since the beginning of time. I’m still waiting for Faith to support my belief, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elinz Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 I'm living in Missouri. My house is about 10 miles from the Temple Lot. The winters are cold and usually without much snow. The summers are so hot and humid to the point you can't do anything but go to the pool or stay indoors. And it rains a lot. Plus I nearly got hit by a tornado last year. The only thing good about Missouri is that the soil is about 8 feet of pure clay and the crops get all the water they need to grow. Plants love Missouri, but why would people? The joke goes "It's not Missouri, it's Misery" Oh, and everyone is fat and deeply into vices like drinking and smoking. So this is paradise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenda Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Feb 17 2004, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Feb 17 2004, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Feb 17 2004, 03:32 PM Mainly because he's been studying the history of early Native Americans. He knows that people didn't appear in the Americas until many tens of thousands of years after they appeared in Africa, the middle east and Asia. He's very cerebral. He's been taught a lot of things in Seminary that don't make sense to him. This is just the latest one. He may be able to buy that Mesopotamia is the cradle of mankind (although evidence strongly points to Africa), but certainly not the Americas. Basically everything in the OT before Abraham violated the laws of physics, and space and time. If Noah could fit 2 of every animal into that boat, Adam could have lived in Missouri, and there could have been an extremely fast continental drift that split the continent into 7 pieces in 40 days and 40 nights. Ever think that that could have been what caused the flood to begin with? hhmmmmmmmm???? B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 17 2004, 04:55 PM Ever think that that could have been what caused the flood to begin with? hhmmmmmmmm???? B) Like I said, once you believe in The Flood, anything is possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Feb 17 2004, 06:01 PM Like I said, once you believe in The Flood, anything is possible Or Peter Pan, Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, Men on the Sun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenda Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Rodney+Feb 17 2004, 05:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Feb 17 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Feb 17 2004, 06:01 PM Like I said, once you believe in The Flood, anything is possible Or Peter Pan, Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, Men on the Sun... Oh, good. Another doubter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Rodney+Feb 17 2004, 05:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Feb 17 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Feb 17 2004, 06:01 PM Like I said, once you believe in The Flood, anything is possible Or Peter Pan, Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, Men on the Sun... Or reincarnation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest curvette Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda@Feb 17 2004, 04:55 PM Ever think that that could have been what caused the flood to begin with? hhmmmmmmmm???? B) You are joking, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest curvette Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Snow@Feb 17 2004, 04:05 PM Which part was he disturbed by? That "Noah (really) lived" or that there really was a flood or that Adam lived in America? Yes. You know that look that teenagers get, and then they roll their eyes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by elinz@Feb 17 2004, 04:40 PM I'm living in Missouri.My house is about 10 miles from the Temple Lot.The winters are cold and usually without much snow.The summers are so hot and humid to the point youcan't do anything but go to the pool or stay indoors.And it rains a lot.Plus I nearly got hit by a tornado last year.The only thing good about Missouri is that the soilis about 8 feet of pure clay and the crops get allthe water they need to grow.Plants love Missouri, but why would people?The joke goes "It's not Missouri, it's Misery"Oh, and everyone is fat and deeply into viceslike drinking and smoking.So this is paradise? I”ve never seen Missouri, but what you’re describing sounds a lot like Oregon. Do you also have lots of forested hills with tall Douglas fir trees there? That’s what made me want to move here from Arizona. Lots of people complain about all the rain we get in Oregon too, but it seems like paradise to me. I certainly can’t see how Africa could be described as anybody’s idea of paradise, but to each their own, I guess. There’s still the possibility that things in the past were different than they are now, and who knows how far Adam and Eve walked from the garden of Eden before they settled somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Ray@Feb 17 2004, 05:28 PM Lots of people complain about all the rain we get in Oregon too, but it seems like paradise to me. I certainly can’t see how Africa could be described as anybody’s idea of paradise, but to each their own, I guess. If there really was a Flood, it would have (or could have) changed everything in Africa, Missouri, Iraq...wherever we want to believe Eden was...and therefore there could have been a beautiful garden there before the Flood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest curvette Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Feb 17 2004, 05:32 PM If there really was a Flood, it would have (or could have) changed everything in Africa, Missouri, Iraq...wherever we want to believe Eden was...and therefore there could have been a beautiful garden there before the Flood. If there ever was a universal flood, there would be something (anything!) in the geologic record to show it. There isn't, therefore there wasn't. There is evidence of many local floods, many of them quite catastrophic. The most likely source of the flood stories (IMHO) was the rise in ocean levels at the end of the last ice age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheProudDuck Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Ray+Feb 17 2004, 04:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Feb 17 2004, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@ Feb 17 2004, 02:58 PM Ray -- There's no indication that D&C 107 and 116 are referring to the same place. Just as there are two distinct and different places named "Bountiful" in the Book of Mormon (i.e. in Arabia and America), why couldn't there be more than one place named Adam-ondi-Ahman? Namely, one place for Adam to judge his people the first time around (in Genesis) and another at the end of days?In fact, the text of Sections 107 and 116 themselves lend support to the conclusion that they're different places. Section 107 refers to Adam-ondi-Ahman as a valley. Section 116 calls it a hill. (Section 117 calls it "mountains.") Which is it -- a valley, hill, or mountain? One place can't be all three.Heh, am I getting credit for something I didn’t say again?Oh well, since I’m posting, I might as well share my opinion on the matter, huh.I agree with antishock on this one, if I’m correct in stating that he also believes that Adam dwelt in the land we now know as Missouri. My reasoning is supported by all the scriptures that have already been cited along with Joseph F. Smith’s answer in the book, “Answer’s to Gospel Questions”. I also have the idea that America is the most choice land on all the Earth, for several different reasons, and that this land has been reserved for God’s chosen people since the beginning of time. I’m still waiting for Faith to support my belief, though. Argh. I meant "Paul." Actually, there's an interesting argument to be made that "Ray" is not a proper name, but a category of Iron Rod Mormon -- kind of like "Elias" is stated by the Church not be be a proper name, but rather a special office in the Priesthood, thus allowing "Elias" and "Elijah" to be different people (consistent with the fact that Mormon scripture refers to them as different people), and not merely Greek and Hebrew versions of the same name.So Paul can be both Paul and Ray at the same time, and my quoting Paul under the name "Ray" is perfectly accurate. Because proud ducks never make careless mistakes. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenda Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by curvette+Feb 17 2004, 05:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 17 2004, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Feb 17 2004, 05:32 PM If there really was a Flood, it would have (or could have) changed everything in Africa, Missouri, Iraq...wherever we want to believe Eden was...and therefore there could have been a beautiful garden there before the Flood. If there ever was a universal flood, there would be something (anything!) in the geologic record to show it. There isn't, therefore there wasn't. There is evidence of many local floods, many of them quite catastrophic. The most likely source of the flood stories (IMHO) was the rise in ocean levels at the end of the last ice age. It doesn't seem strange to you that every major civilization (even savage civilizations) have a great flood myth. Not just those who's culture stems from the middle east. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pahoran Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 17 2004, 06:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 17 2004, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 17 2004, 05:38 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Feb 17 2004, 05:32 PM If there really was a Flood, it would have (or could have) changed everything in Africa, Missouri, Iraq...wherever we want to believe Eden was...and therefore there could have been a beautiful garden there before the Flood. If there ever was a universal flood, there would be something (anything!) in the geologic record to show it. There isn't, therefore there wasn't. There is evidence of many local floods, many of them quite catastrophic. The most likely source of the flood stories (IMHO) was the rise in ocean levels at the end of the last ice age. It doesn't seem strange to you that every major civilization (even savage civilizations) have a great flood myth. Not just those who's culture stems from the middle east. Could you provide references for all of them please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by curvette@Feb 17 2004, 05:38 PM If there ever was a universal flood, there would be something (anything!) in the geologic record to show it. There isn't, therefore there wasn't. There is evidence of many local floods, many of them quite catastrophic. The most likely source of the flood stories (IMHO) was the rise in ocean levels at the end of the last ice age. Personally, I agree with you...and if that is the case, then it is unlikely Adam lived in Missouri.But to people who believe in Adam, ANYTHING is possible...we are talking about people who believe that woman was created from a rib and that snakes can talk. We are talking about a man living to be about 1000 years old. So, if one can believe that, it would not be a stretch for them to say that God (or Satan) used their magic powers to change the geological record (to test our faith). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Rodney+Feb 17 2004, 05:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Feb 17 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Feb 17 2004, 06:01 PM Like I said, once you believe in The Flood, anything is possible Or Peter Pan, Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, Men on the Sun... Rodney...care to introduce yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elinz Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Ray@Feb 17 2004, 06:28 PMI”ve never seen Missouri, but what you’re describing sounds a lot like Oregon. Do you also have lots of forested hills with tall Douglas fir trees there?Sorry, the biggest hill is about 50 ft high.It's basically flat with slight rolls here and there.No ocean, no mountains, muddy lakes...Paradise? ...for plants! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenda Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Pahoran+Feb 17 2004, 05:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Pahoran @ Feb 17 2004, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Jenda@Feb 17 2004, 06:41 PM Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 17 2004, 05:38 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Feb 17 2004, 05:32 PM If there really was a Flood, it would have (or could have) changed everything in Africa, Missouri, Iraq...wherever we want to believe Eden was...and therefore there could have been a beautiful garden there before the Flood. If there ever was a universal flood, there would be something (anything!) in the geologic record to show it. There isn't, therefore there wasn't. There is evidence of many local floods, many of them quite catastrophic. The most likely source of the flood stories (IMHO) was the rise in ocean levels at the end of the last ice age. It doesn't seem strange to you that every major civilization (even savage civilizations) have a great flood myth. Not just those who's culture stems from the middle east. Could you provide references for all of them please? No, but if you know how to hit the search button at the top of your browser, you can do it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda+Feb 17 2004, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Feb 17 2004, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Rodney@Feb 17 2004, 05:06 PM <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Feb 17 2004, 06:01 PM Like I said, once you believe in The Flood, anything is possible Or Peter Pan, Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, Men on the Sun... Oh, good. Another doubter! Not likely.It's one of the regular doubters with a brand spanking new name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taoist_Saint Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I found an interesting question on an FAQ for a website about the Flood.How did the kangaroos get from Mount Ararat to Australia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by Pahoran@Feb 17 2004, 05:43 PM Could you provide references for all of them please? Oh look,Here's another non-new poster with a brand spanking new username. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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