Book of Mormon quiz!

[pam]

Yeh, there was no grading on this quiz.

[Justice]

So, what does "I chose these things, to finish my record upon them" mean? Is "these" consistent with every other usage written on or about the Small Plates by every writer who wrote on them? Or, did Mormon change his meaning in this one instance? And what does it mean to finish a record "upon" these plates? Is he not saying he's writing on them? And, was Mormon "about to give" Moroni incomplete plates that he would have to unbury the Large Plates to later finish near what he saw to be the end of his people?

What does everyone think?

[Vort]

Justice, what is the antecedent of "these few plates"?

Answer: The plates that constitute the Book of Mormon, not merely the Small Plates of Nephi.

That's not true.

I don't see why it needs to come to this, but I'll show you how he refers to the plates. I'm not going to include his commentary within his abridgment of the Large Plates, just his direct unabridged writings. I will start by showing that Nephi makes the same distinctions, and the other writers of the Small Plates.

1 Nephi 9: 1-5

1 And all these things did my father see, and hear, and speak, as he dwelt in a tent, in the valley of Lemuel, and also a great many more things, which cannot be written upon these plates.

2 And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; therefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name; and these plates also are called the plates of Nephi.

3 Nevertheless, I have received a commandment of the Lord that I should make these plates, for the special purpose that there should be an account engraven of the ministry of my people.

4 Upon the other plates should be engraven an account of the reign of the kings, and the wars and contentions of my people; wherefore these plates are for the more part of the ministry; and the other plates are for the more part of the reign of the kings and the wars and contentions of my people.

5 Wherefore, the Lord hath commanded me to make these plates for a wise purpose in him, which purpose I know not.

1 Nephi 19: 2-5

2 And I knew not at the time when I made them that I should be commanded of the Lord to make these plates; wherefore, the record of my father, and the genealogy of his fathers, and the more part of all our proceedings in the wilderness are engraven upon those first plates of which I have spoken; wherefore, the things which transpired before I made these plates are, of a truth, more particularly made mention upon the first plates.

3 And after I had made these plates by way of commandment, I, Nephi, received a commandment that the ministry and the prophecies, the more plain and precious parts of them, should be written upon these plates; and that the things which were written should be kept for the instruction of my people, who should possess the land, and also for other wise purposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord.

4 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the other plates, which gives an account, or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another, or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord.

5 And an account of my making these plates shall be given hereafter; and then, behold, I proceed according to that which I have spoken; and this I do that the more sacred things may be kept for the knowledge of my people.

Nephi continues throughout his writins to refer to his 2 sets of plates as "these plates" and the "other plates."

True enough. When Nephi writes on the Small Plates, he refers to them as "these plates", which is of course entirely logical.

But since Mormon wasn't writing on the Small Plates -- which, as we know, were full -- then when he says "these plates", he generally isn't talking about the Small Plates. In at least one case he is, because the clear antecedent to "these" is the Small Plates. But generally, he is either talking about "the plates to which I most recently referred" or else "the plates holding the abridgment that I am currently compiling."

Your point about the 116 pages is disputable. I believe it is indeed a sufficient number of pages to hold the history from Lehi to Benjamin, as abridged by Mormon and translated by Joseph Smith. If you want to discuss this, I would ask you to please respond to the arguments I already made before proceeding further.

Justice, you're obviously worked up over this. I know you believe you have received a divine testimony of the truthfulness of your scriptural gloss. Please understand that I respect your right to believe that, but also that your testimony in that point does not mean anything to me. I simply am not going to believe in a (to my eyes very obviously flawed and deficient) scriptural interpretation just because someone on the internet bears me his testimony that God has revealed to him that's what it means.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Vort

[Vort]

So, what does "I chose these things, to finish my record upon them" mean? Is "these" consistent with every other usage written on or about the Small Plates by every writer who wrote on them? Or, did Mormon change his meaning in this one instance? And what does it mean to finish a record "upon" these plates? Is he not saying he's writing on them? And, was Mormon "about to give" Moroni incomplete plates that he would have to unbury the Large Plates to later finish near what he saw to be the end of his people?

What does everyone think?

Justice,

Here is a complete list of every time Mormon uses the phrase "these plates" in his abridgment (as opposed to quoting someone else using the phrase), along with an explanation of the meaning of the phrase "these plates":

W of M 3

...I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates...

W of M 4

And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me...

W of M 6

...I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record...

W of M 10

...after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin...

Here Mormon is talking about the plates that he just got finished inserting into his compilation, and that we just got through reading; that is, the Small Plates of Nephi.

Mormon 2:18

And upon the plates of Nephi I did make a full account of all the wickedness and abominations; but upon these plates I did forbear to make a full account of their wickedness and abominations...

Here Mormon is referring to his abridgment.

Mormon 6:6

...I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Here Mormon is speaking specifically about the plates that hold his abridgment -- that is, Joseph Smith's "Golden Plates".

Other usages of "these plates" outside the Small Plates:

• Benjamin refers to the Brass Plates as "these plates" (Mosiah 1:3-4)
• Alma the younger refers to the Brass Plates, and possibly the Large Plates of Nephi, as "these plates" (Alma 37:3, 9)
• Limhi refers to the plates found in Desolation as "these plates" (Mosiah 8:19)

That, I believe, constitutes an exhaustive listing of the use of the term "these plates" outside the Small Plates. As you can see, it in no sense refers uniquely to the Small Plates. In fact, it does not refer at all to the Small Plates, except when Mormon is talking about the Small Plates immediately after their inclusion. The only other place that "these plates" refers to the Small Plates is on the Small Plates themselves.

So your insistence that Mormon wrote on the Small Plates because he said "these plates", then saying that "these plates" must mean the Small Plates because that's what Mormon was writing on, is circular. Circular reasoning is generally considered a logical fallacy.

So, what does "I chose these things, to finish my record upon them" mean? Is "these" consistent with every other usage written on or about the Small Plates by every writer who wrote on them?

That is not relevant, Justice. We already know that those who wrote on the Small Plates called them "these plates". That is obvious. It is also obvious that Mormon is referring to them as "these plates" because they are the plates he is talking about.

Or, did Mormon change his meaning in this one instance?

It's not one instance, Justice. See above.

And what does it mean to finish a record "upon" these plates?

Reread it. He doesn't say "upon these plates". He said "I chose these things, to finish my record upon them". That is, he is finishing his record of this part of Nephite history with the information from the Small Plates.

Is he not saying he's writing on them?

No. As Amaleki made clear, the Small Plates were full. Mormon is not writing on them.

And, was Mormon "about to give" Moroni incomplete plates that he would have to unbury the Large Plates to later finish near what he saw to be the end of his people?

No. He was about to give his son the abridgment that he was then doing. Once he finished the abridgment, for which he had spent the large majority of his life researching, planning, and executing and the realization of which he was now within a short time, perhaps only months or even weeks, of finishing, he was going to give it all to Moroni.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Vort

[Justice]

But since Mormon wasn't writing on the Small Plates -- which, as we know, were full

You begin your statement with nothing in the text that supports your belief. "Since Mormon wasn't writing on the Small Plates..." needs to be proved in the text.

Forget that they were full for just a minute, and realize they had many ways to get around them being full. Also, there are different levels of "full." Maybe he meant all the pages had been written on and there was no more blank pages to start another book. Maybe Mormon wrote at the bottom of the page where Amaleki finished. There are possibilities... just get past that for a minute and look at what Mormon wrote.

then when he says "these plates", he generally isn't talking about the Small Plates.

Let's think about this. Mormon mentions 3 sets of plates.

The Large Plates of Nephi (those handed down to him)

The Small Plates of Nephi (those he found among the ones handed down)

His Abridgment

Agreed? Does he mention any more?

We know his abridgment is from the Large Plates. Agreed? There is no mention of an abridgment of the Small Plates. In fact, all the writers on the Small Plates speak in first person, and Mormon never offers any inserted commentary until Words of Mormon. He inserts commentary in every book he abridges, but none are found in the text up until Words of Mormon.

Please follow this logic closely and point out the flaws...

If he was physically writing on the Large Plates, as you have suggested is a possibility, meaning "these plates," we would never have seen it because we don't have anything from the Large Plates, just his abridgment of them. We would be getting an abridgment of him saying "these plates" in his abridgment of the Large Plates. Make sense?

That means he was either writing on the Small Plates, or His abridgment of the Large Plates.

Please go slow here:

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake

Here he is clearly speaking of his abridgment or "the things which I have written." He makes NO mention that he is writing in his abridgment, but refers to it as "that which I have written," not "that which I am writing in." THEN he says he was writing in "these plates" that he found among those that had been passed down to him. Watch:

I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

Now he mentions the Large Plates and/or ALL the records that had been passed to him and says that is when he found THESE PLATES among them. Which plates?

He found his abridgment in the plates that had been passed to him?

THESE PLATES, meaning the plates he was THEN writing in... the Small Plates.

Don't you see it yet?

He couldn't have been referring to the Large Plates or his abridgment for aforementioned reasons: 1) We don't have any Large Plate writings, just Mormon's abridgment of them, 2) "these plates" referred to plates that had been passed down to him, making it impossible he was speaking of his abridgment.

He's speaking of the Small Plates, and here is MORE evidence:

And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—

The things which are on THESE PLATES (the ones I am writing in and I found among the records that had been passed down to me) pleased him because, AS NEPHI SAID, they contained the more spiritual part of the writings.

When Nephi wrote in them he called them THESE PLATES. When Mormon wrote in them he called them THESE PLATES.

This is so painfully obvious to me.

Then...

Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them,

He chose to finish his record upon the Small Plates. We already know it couldn't have been the Large PLates he wrote "these plates" in because we wouldn't have it if he did. He couldn't have been writing in his abridgment because he was writing on plates that had been passed down to him.

Then, he even says he chose "the more spiritual record" to "finish his record upon."

We know it is the Small Plates.

Vort, look where it is positioned in the text. It is immediately after the Small Plates. Now, if you want to argue he made another plate and put it with the Small Plates, I would have to think longer and harder about that one, and find some evidence. But, Mormon says he is writing on the more spiritual record that was handed down to him. That was the Small Plates.

But generally, he is either talking about "the plates to which I most recently referred" or else "the plates holding the abridgment that I am currently compiling."

One more time. He only mentioned 3 different groups of plates. He couldn't have been writing in the Large Plates because we only have his abridgement of those plates. He couldn't have been writing in his abridgment because 1) his abridgment was not passed down to him, and 2) what he was writing did not appear at the end of his writings, they appear at the end of the Small Plates. If he was writing in the abridgment he was currently compiling, why did he say he found these plates among all the plates that had been passed down to him, and why did he move his writing to the middle of his abridgment?

To hang your hat on the fact that the plates were full is ignoring all the many ways they could have gotten around it. The first 6 verses in the Words of Mormon are as clear as day to me, and you can see exactly what Mormon is trying to tell us.

I asked the questions many times in many different ways hoping you will see one of them.

Direct your response to my logic, and Mormon's statements, about how he couldn't have been writing in either the Large Plates or his abridgment.

I'll address your comments about length of the records if you feel a need later.

If you still feel he was writing on either the Large Plates or his abridgment, I'd like for you to address the scriptures and comments I made that show he couldn't have been. Or, if you think it was yet another set of plates, other than the 3 he mentions, please show me.

[Justice]

Thank you for that list of "these plates."

You are correct, and I believe I have not made my point clear. In fact, I believe I have muddled it by concentrating on something else.

The point I'm making is that in every case, "these plates" refers to the plates they are writing in as they write "these plates." If you concede that point, that's all I need to get across.

So, that Mormon could only have been speaking of the Small Plates when he said "these plates" is what I am addressing in my previous post.

By the way, I am in no way upset. I love discussions where things can be discussed and ironed out. This may conclude with me changing my mind. It may conclude with each of us retaining our opinions. But, I do love the discussion, and I think you're seeing my strictness for details and to try to weed out what's really being said, and possibly mistaking it for being upset. I learned a long time ago not to believe something just because everyone else believes it. I search for answers myslef, and I believe in this case I have found a small piece of understanding. In the end it really doesn't amount to much, but as I said I love the discussion. :)

Edited November 7, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

I just carefully re-read the thread.

...and this is all over question 7... there are more questions to discuss!

Just kidding.