Agreement between LDS and Jewish nation

[beefche]

thekabalist said on another thread that he is unaware of any such agreement between LDS and Jews. I'm posting some links to various articles written about this.

In summary, LDS gather names and other vital information about dead ancestors--we call it family history or genealogy. We are encouraged to do this for our own ancestors, but in their zeal some LDS members gather the information of others. Many of the dead ancestors then receive the ordinances of the LDS church posthumously--i.e., a living person is baptized on behalf of a dead person.

In response to finding out many Holocaust victims have received such work for the dead, the Jewish nation expressed offense and outrage over this. As a result, the LDS church leaders have reached an agreement that only converted to LDS Jews may do work for Jewish direct ancestors.

JewishGen

LDS news

Criticism by head of American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors

LDS response to criticism

I couldn't find where I had read about the doctrinal reasons why Jewish people are so opposed to the LDS work for the dead. I'm sure someone smarter than I can find that quickly and post it here.

[Dravin]

Is there a doctrinal reason? I always assumed it was an (understandable to some degree) emotional response?

[beefche]

I read somewhere that they believe it takes away their "Jewish" roots to be baptized into another faith. Again, I don't remember it well enough to explain fully.

[Dravin]

I read somewhere that they believe it takes away their "Jewish" roots to be baptized into another faith. Again, I don't remember it well enough to explain fully.

Well I can understand that if a Jew was actually baptized, but from their prospective we've got a bunch of loons getting wet claiming they baptized a Jewish person. Goes back to if we are what we say we are they should want us to do it, if we aren't we're just crazy people doing our own thing.

Though now that I know they do believe in works for the deceased it does bring it a little closer to home, things can be done for the dead, I suppose the next step is who can do them.

[beefche]

I was hoping our resident Jew would be able to explain this better cause my memory is so horrible. But to us Westerners, it's no big deal--someone else gets baptized and you tell them you don't accept it. However, my understanding is that to the Jewish, it is more literal--the person has shed a portion of their heritage to even have the work done on their behalf and that it is deeply insulting to do so without that person's express permission. It's not just a matter of the person saying they don't accept it, they have lost a portion of themselves or heritage or something and may not be able to reclaim it without the proper sanctification rites performed.

[thekabalist]

Interesting topic. The possible reasons could range from Judaism believing that it's actually possible to perform works on behalf of the dead to the bad memories the Jewish people have of forced conversions. Perhaps if Rome hadn't forced Jews to convert or die the feelings would have been softer. Rome in the past with its physical abuse and Evangelicals in the present with its emotional and psychological abuse of the Jewish people are the great reason why the Jewish people is so weary of Christianity in the first place.

[thekabalist]

I read somewhere that they believe it takes away their "Jewish" roots to be baptized into another faith. Again, I don't remember it well enough to explain fully.

The official Jewish position is the opposite: if you're born a Jew you'll die a Jew. And your soul will remain Jewish.

But Jews do fear assimilation greatly. Because the Jewish faith is not a "feel good" or a "raise your hands and all is done" kind of religion and because we are the odd ones out in most places of the world. I believe LDS probably have the same problem as your religion seems far more profound than traditional Christianity.

[Vort]

Is there a doctrinal reason? I always assumed it was an (understandable to some degree) emotional response?

The doctrinal reason is that we are charged with doing work for our ancestors, not for everyone else's ancestors. Some Saints are so eager to see work get done for Julius Caesar, Adolph Hitler, or the victims of Auschwitz that they fail to do the work for great-great-grandma Beulah.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Vort
typo

[HiJolly]

Vort, your avatar is killing me. Help me to be at peace with it, so I can stop subconsciously thinking of you as a young lady.

HJ

[Vort]

Vort, your avatar is killing me. Help me to be at peace with it, so I can stop subconsciously thinking of you as a young lady.

Correction: A beautiful young lady.

Does that help?

[HiJolly]

Correction: A beautiful young lady.

Does that help?

Let's see if it helps....

If you are my age, that means she is my daughter -- or maybe my 2nd wife...

HiJolly

[Vort]

Let's see if it helps....

If you are my age, that means she is my daughter -- or maybe my 2nd wife...

Don't be silly! I'm not your age. Why, I'm almost three years younger than you. And I could well be your second wife, except for my sex.

[beefche]

Yeah, Vort. I could escape your avatar while at work since it would only show your gangsta one. But you did some kind of heebee jeebee or mumbo jumbo or something cause now my work browser shows your current freaky avatar.

[Vort]

Yeah, Vort. I could escape your avatar while at work since it would only show your gangsta one. But you did some kind of heebee jeebee or mumbo jumbo or something cause now my work browser shows your current freaky avatar.

Just keep telling yourself: Vort is beautiful. Vort is beautiful. Vort is beautiful.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[hordak]

I couldn't find where I had read about the doctrinal reasons why Jewish people are so opposed to the LDS work for the dead. I'm sure someone smarter than I can find that quickly and post it here.

Put yourself in there shoes. Image if millions of Mormons were rounded up by the government, and forced into slave labor because of their religious background. 6 million are executed or die of disease, starvation etc.. Your uncles, aunts, friends and family suffer this atrocity because of there religious identity.

Then along comes a group of Muslims and they start doing religious rituals to make the lost souls Muslim so they can have a better afterlife.

[HiJolly]

Just keep telling yourself: Vort is beautiful. Vort is beautiful. Vort is beautiful.

AH!! So, that is a pic of you 30 years ago, right after you attended the Rocky Horror Picture Show? I get it! You're in drag! And yes, you're beautiful!

HiJolly

(that may have just revealed a bit too much from my younger years...)

(take it all with good humor, Vort...)

[Vort]

Put yourself in there shoes. Image if millions of Mormons were rounded up by the government, and forced into slave labor because of their religious background. 6 million are executed or die of disease, starvation etc.. Your uncles, aunts, friends and family suffer this atrocity because of there religious identity.

Then along comes a group of Muslims and they start doing religious rituals to make the lost souls Muslim so they can have a better afterlife.

Wouldn't bother me a bit. Let them do their foolish voodoo. No skin off my nose.

[Dravin]

The doctrinal reason is that we are charged with doing work for our ancestors, not for everyone else's ancestors. Some Saints are so eager to see work get done for Julius Caesar, Adolph Hitler, or the victims of Auschwitz that they fail to do the work for great-great-grandma Beulah.

I was talking about the Jewish reaction, not LDS Policy.

[Vort]

I was talking about the Jewish reaction, not LDS Policy.

Oh, I understand. You're asking if there is a Jewish doctrinal reason why the LDS work for the dead is objectionable. Good question.

Obviously, I'm not qualified to answer that question, but it does lead me to wonder. I suppose that any religion that sees other religions as necessarily false will believe that their doctrinal practices are in some sense abominable. One of the truly beautiful and great things about the establishment of the US is that it provided for free practice (within reason) for ALL religions, even if their beliefs and practices looked "abominable" to others. Though the US may not always have lived up to that ideal, it certainly has been a great thing.

[thekabalist]

Put yourself in there shoes. Image if millions of Mormons were rounded up by the government, and forced into slave labor because of their religious background. 6 million are executed or die of disease, starvation etc.. Your uncles, aunts, friends and family suffer this atrocity because of there religious identity.

Then along comes a group of Muslims and they start doing religious rituals to make the lost souls Muslim so they can have a better afterlife.

Right on. :)

As a sidenote Judaism doesn't consider itself to be the one true religion. However we are very zealous with protecting our own people from assimilation. And by assimilation I mean losing our traditions and the things that are sacred to us.

[RanMan]

Right on. :)

As a sidenote Judaism doesn't consider itself to be the one true religion. However we are very zealous with protecting our own people from assimilation. And by assimilation I mean losing our traditions and the things that are sacred to us.

That makes sense.

:)