Jesus in the Garden

[lattelady]

Which prophet was the first to teach the LDS church about Jesus' Garden atonement?

[bytor2112]

Which prophet was the first to teach the LDS church about Jesus' Garden atonement?

I think it has been stated through out this thread that Christ's atonement was accomplished at Gethsemane and at Golgotha. We seem to both agree that Christ suffered at Gethsemane....but our understandings of WHY or what he suffered are different. I am guessing that this has been taught and understand until the apostasy veiled man's understanding and has been understood since the Gospel was restored to the earth in preparation for the return of the Savior.

[lattelady]

Bytor, thanks for your thoughts...

Do you know, though, to whom the revelation came regarding Gethsemane's atonement?

[bytor2112]

Bytor, thanks for your thoughts...

Do you know, though, to whom the revelation came regarding Gethsemane's atonement?

No, I am sorry. Maybe Justice or Ram will check in here or someone else.

[lattelady]

Bytor, you don't have to be sorry. I'll keep looking and researching. If anyone knows, let me know!

[bytor2112]

You might check out FARMS (Neil Maxwell Institute)....you can email them and an LDS scholar will reply to your question directly.

[pam]

I'm not sure there is actual revelation on this given to a Prophet. I've searched lds.org for this and keep coming up empty. It could just be personal inspiration received by leaders who study the scriptures and have had a confirmation on this.

[Flyonthewall]

The origin of this teaching stems from D&C 19, which was a revelation that came to Joseph Smith. If you are looking for an actual sermon that includes this, then that would be very large search, as many leaders have taught it and you would have to filter out all the later sermons that have it. It is a very common teaching that nobody need cite an earlier reference other than D&C 19.

John Taylor referred to this teaching -

President John Taylor (1808–87)

“Groaning beneath this concentrated load, this intense, incomprehensible pressure, this terrible exaction of Divine justice, from which feeble humanity shrank, and through the agony thus experienced sweating great drops of blood, He was led to exclaim, ‘Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me’ [Matt. 26:39]. He had wrestled with the superincumbent load in the wilderness; He had struggled against the powers of darkness that had been let loose upon him there; placed below all things, His mind surcharged with agony and pain, lonely and apparently helpless and forsaken, in his agony the blood oozed from His pores” (The Mediation and Atonement [1882], 150).

Joseph Fielding Smith is quoted with this teaching -

President Joseph Fielding Smith (1876–1972)

“We speak of the passion of Jesus Christ. A great many people have an idea that when he was on the cross, and nails were driven into his hands and feet, that was his great suffering. His great suffering was before he ever was placed upon the cross. It was in the Garden of Gethsemane that the blood oozed from the pores of his body: ‘Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink’ [D&C 19:18].

“That was not when he was on the cross; that was in the garden. That is where he bled from every pore in his body.

“Now I cannot comprehend that pain. I have suffered pain, you have suffered pain, and sometimes it has been quite severe; but I cannot comprehend pain, which is mental anguish more than physical, that would cause the blood, like sweat, to come out upon the body. It was something terrible, something terrific; so we can understand why he would cry unto his Father:

“ ‘If it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt’ [Matt. 26:39]” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 1:130).

[OneEternalSonata]

There is one "revelation" given in latter-days, from an Apostle. I'm not sure Elder Whitney's vision is doctrine, but I'll post it for you:

"ORSON F. WHITNEY'S VISION OF THE SAVIOR"

Then came a marvelous manifestation, and admonition from a higher source, one impossible to ignore. It was a dream, or a vision in a dream, as I lay upon my bed in the little town of Columbia, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. I seemed to be in the Garden of Gethsemane, a witness of the Savior's agony. I saw Him as plainly as ever I have seen anyone. Standing behind a tree in the foreground, I beheld Jesus, with Peter, James and John, as they came through a little wicket gate at my right. Leaving the three Apostles there, after telling them to kneel and pray, the Son of God passed over to the other side, where He also knelt and prayed. It was the same prayer with which all Bible readers are familiar: "Oh my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt."

As He prayed the tears streamed down His face, which was toward me. I was so moved at the sight that I also wept, out of pure sympathy. My whole heart went out to Him; I loved Him with all my soul, and longed to be with Him as I longed for nothing else.

Presently He arose and walked to where those Apostles were kneeling-- fast asleep! He shook them gently, awoke them, and in a tone of tender reproach, untinctured by the least show of anger or impatience, asked them plaintively if they could not watch with Him one hour. There He was, with the awful weight of the world's sins upon His shoulders, with the pangs of every man, woman and child shooting through His sensitive soul-- and they could not watch with Him one poor hour!

Returning to His place, He offered up the same prayer as before; then went back and again found them sleeping. Again He awoke them, readmonished them, and once more returned and prayed. Three times this occurred, until I was perfectly familiar with His appearance-- face, form and movements. He was of noble stature and majestic mien-- not at all the weak, effeminate being that some painters have portrayed; but the very God that He was and is, as meek and humble as a little child.

All at once the circumstances seemed to change, the scene remaining just the same. Instead of before, it was after the crucifixion, and the Savior, with the three Apostles, now stood together in a group at my left. They were about to depart and ascend into Heaven. I could endure it no longer. I ran from behind the tree, fell at His feet, clasped Him around the knees, and begged Him to take me with Him.

I shall never forget the kind and gentle manner in which He stooped, raised me up, and embraced me. It was so vivid, so real. I felt the very warmth of His body, as He held me in His arms and said in the tenderest tones: "No, my son, these have finished their work; they can go with me; but you must stay and finish yours." Still I clung to Him. Gazing up into His face-- for He was taller than I-- I besought Him fervently: "Well, promise me that I may come to you at the last." Smiling sweetly, He said, "That will depend entirely upon yourself." I awoke with a sob in my throat, and it was morning.

.... I saw the moral clearly. I have never thought of being an Apostle, nor of holding any other office in the Church, and it did not occur to me then. Yet I knew that these sleeping Apostles meant me. I was asleep at my post -- as any man is who, having been divinely appointed to do one thing, does another.

But from that hour, all was changed. I never was the same man again. I continued to write, but not to the neglect of the Lord's work. I held that first and foremost; all else was secondary.

Orson F. Whitney, "Through Memories Halls", 1930, p. 82

Edited November 29, 2009 by OneEternalSonata

[lattelady]

I've been searching in the LDS scriptures and found verses like these:

D&C Section 21:9 "For, behold, I will bless all those who labor in my vineyard with a mighty blessing, and they shall believe on his words, which are given him through me by the Comforter, which manifesteth that Jesus was CRUCIFIED by sinful men FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, yea, for the remission of sins unto the contrite heart." ***Why doesn't it mention Gethsemane as the atoning place, if Gethsemane was a part or the integral part (whichever one one believes) in the atonement for sin?

D&C Section 35:21 "I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was CRUCIFIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am on in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one."

D&C Section 53:2 "Behold, I, the Lord, who was CRUCIFIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD, give unto you a commandment that you shall forsake the world."

D&C Section 54:1 "Behold, thus saith the Lord, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, even he who was crucified for the sins of the world--"

[lattelady]

Flyonthewall, I agree with you--as I mentioned before--that Jesus suffered in the Garden. He suffered immensely. Nowhere, though, in D&C 19 does it say He bore our sins, or took upon Himself our sins or atoned for the sins of the world IN THE GARDEN. It does say in more than one place in the Doctrine and Covenants that he was CRUCIFIED for the sins of the world. The Garden was a place of intense suffering. The cross was where he shed blood and DIED so that we wouldn't have to--if we would accept His free gift of eternal life by faith. My belief is that the Garden itself has no eternal significance for us. The cross at Calvary has eternal significance (it is EVERYTHING) to our salvation. I believe scripture supports this.

[bytebear]

You said, "I agree that He suffered greatly in the Garden. The physical response He had to the anticipation of the Cross was proof that He was suffering. So was the prayer He prayed, "if it is possible, take this cup from me."

But the statement "anticipation of the Cross" is an interpretation of why he bled from every pore. I do not believe he was just afraid of what was going to happen, but that his suffering had already begun. He bled not because he was afraid, but because he was already suffering the sins of the world.

The atonement started in the garden, and ended at the cross. It was one event that transpired over a period of time. A Catholic would know that the atonement covers more than just the suffering on the cross as the stations of the cross is not just about his suffering on the cross, but on events that occur before he was nailed to the cross. So the events on the cross are important, but so are the events in the garden, and all that happened between.

Edited November 29, 2009 by bytebear

[Justice]

It's not accidental that Gethsemane literally means "oil press." It is the place where they crushed and pressed the olives to get olive oil. If you apply this to Christ, as He bled from every pore, you will see the significance of what He did in Gethsemane.

lattelady, I understand your difficulty. I hope I can explain it in a way you can at least understand, even if you don't agree.

Christ had to die in order to overcome death. So, if we are to use a term to describe what He did, or what He suffered, it would be that He died. Since He did not die in Gethsemane, it's not mentioned in scripture as much as His death is. Does that make sense?

I believe that Adam fell from a state of immortality to a state of mortality. This means that blood began to flow through his veins and thereby making it possible for him to bleed to death. Christ had to literally reverse the fall in Himself. He literally shed His blood, and in some way incomprehensible to us, He reversed the affects of the fall in Himself. The burden He bore was so great that the blood was literally pressed out of Him, making way for His body to become purged of blood and become immortal.

You have heard it said that He did not have to die on the cross, that He willingly died? This is why. This is why He literally did not have to die on the cross.

Also, remember that thousands died by the cross. But, none have ever gone through what Christ went through in Gethsemane. If the cross were His greatest suffering, then His suffering was no different than the thousands of others who died in the same manner.

We may not be able to find the perfect quote from scripture, but if you ponder and pray over it you will come to know that there was more to Christ's suffering than dying on a cross.

Mosiah 18: 2

2 Yea, concerning that which was to come, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and the redemption of the people, which was to be brought to pass through the power, and sufferings, and death of Christ, and his resurrection and ascension into heaven.

Alma 21:

9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.

Alma 22:

14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

Helaman 13:

6 Yea, heavy destruction waiteth this people, and it surely cometh unto this people, and nothing can save this people save it be repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, who surely shall come into the world, and shall suffer many things and shall be slain for his people.

3 Nephi 6:

20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his death and sufferings.

Moroni 9: (from his father, Mormon)

25 My son, be faithful in Christ; and may not the things which I have written grieve thee, to weigh thee down unto death; but may Christ lift thee up, and may his sufferings and death, and the showing his body unto our fathers, and his mercy and long-suffering, and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in your mind forever.

After His blood was purged in Gethsemane (even if only symbolically) He was pierced through every etremety of His body, as if to show or prove the purging was complete. His head was pierced with a crown of thorns, His back was pierced with a multithronged whip that had cutting pieces of bone and metal, His hands and feet were pierced with nails, and His front side was pierced with a spear. All this was necessary to show His complete purging.

It is my belief that the Father only allowed what was necessary to happen to His Beloved Son. He would not allow more suffering or abuse than was necessary.

I hope you read the above scriptures, together with the accounts of the suffering of Christ in Gethsemane in the Bible, and pray about it. I know you will receive an answer if you pray with genuine intent to know the truth.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Justice

[Justice]

I appreciate the confidence, bytor. :) I hope by sharing some of what I have learned about the atonement, and what happened in Gethsemane, it will make a difference.

[Justice]

To any of you who are so inclined... you can certainly apply "firstfruit" to Christ.

If this symbol of Christ as the fruit (Lehi's dream) in Gethsemane being pressed relates to Him being the "Word of God," which we know is a representation of the "seeds" (parable of the sower), then we can see how His flesh must be broken in order to get to the Word of God, or the salvation of man.

Seeds are always contained in the fruit (except strawberry where they are on the fruit), and in fact, is what makes a fruit a fruit.

Genesis 1:

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

You may have to read that a few times, I'm not the best at wording my thoughts.

If you can extract anything from the above, extend it to the sacrament and what it represents. I'd wager there's several years of study for anyone who might venture.

Also, is it any wonder we use olive oil to bless and anoint the sick and afflicted?

And, is it any wonder He used fruit trees in the Garden of Eden to represent "life" (tree of) and "good and evil" (tree of)?

Edited November 29, 2009 by Justice

[lattelady]

Dear Justice,

Thankyou for taking time to post an answer.

To be completely honest with you, your answer went to the heart of why I have such a hard time with this teaching. You said,

"If the cross were his greatest suffering, then his suffering was no different than the thousands of others who died in the same manner." Do you really believe that? I believe that if the cross of Christ is made less significant, His gospel is made less significant.

1 Corinthians 1:17 & 18 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, LEST THE CROSS OF CHRIST SHOULD BE MADE OF NONE EFFECT. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the POWER OF GOD."

[lattelady]

I continue to assert that nowhere in scripture do I find that Jesus atoned for sin in the Garden, or that His Garden Atonement is the "power of God", or that we should glory in the Garden atonement. Rather, I find that He atoned for sin on the Cross of Calvary, that we should glory in the cross, and that the cross is, to us which are saved, the power of God.

[pam]

Then let that stand that that is what you believe. I, as well as others, would respect that. Many have attempted to explain why we believe the way we do. I too, believe that the atonement started in the garden and ended on the cross.

[lattelady]

Many LDS seem to believe that Jesus atoned for sin in the Garden. I was hoping that someone could shed light on where that teaching originated--with which Prophet.

[lattelady]

I hope you will understand my confusion on this issue. As I've said before, I'm not trying to be obstinate. I have been told before how important it is to stick to the canon of scripture. As I look through scripture, I see the cross being taught as the place of atonement. Somewhere along the line, the teaching of the Garden atonement came into being, and many LDS believe that is the place where the atonement took place. A revelation must've come on this subject, as have come on other doctrines of the church. Did Joseph Smith teach it? It wouldn't seem so; but I can't seem to find the Prophet through which the revelation came. Clearly our beliefs differ. I'm trying to understand yours.

[pam]

The Savior’s farewell words end with the beautiful Intercessory Prayer, sometimes called the great high priestly prayer, wherein Jesus prayed that His disciples “be one” as He and the Father are one (see John 17). Following this prayer, Jesus retired to a garden on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, where He began the process of Atonement by which this prayer could be answered. There, in the Garden of Gethsemane, the Lord offered another prayer, during which He suffered such agony that He sweat great drops of blood (see Luke 22:44). Somehow Jesus took upon Himself the weight of our sins and sorrows (see Mosiah 3:7; D&C 19:16–19). As Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–1985) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles testified:

“We do not know, we cannot tell, no mortal mind can conceive, the full import of what Christ did in Gethsemane. …

“We know that in some way, incomprehensible to us, his suffering satisfied the demands of justice, ransomed penitent souls from the pains and penalties of sin, and made mercy available to those who believe in his holy name.”5

Reflecting upon what Jesus did in Gethsemane deepens our love for Him. In making us “one” with God, Jesus not only saves us from sin and death but also heals us.

D&C 19:16-19

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

Revelation given through Joseph Smith, at Manchester, New York, March 1830.

Edited November 29, 2009 by pam

[lattelady]

In Mosiah 3:7, it speaks of his anguish over the wickedness and abominations of his people. He anguished over their wickedness, and blood came out of his pores. It doesn't say that he was atoning for their sin (their wickedness and abominations); it says he was anguishing over their sin so much that blood came out of his pores.

D&C 19:16-19 says that He suffered the things that He suffered for ALL so that we would not have to suffer if we would repent. And if we don't repent of our sins, we will suffer just as He did--the kind of suffering that caused God, who was the greatest of all, to tremble from pain and bleed from every pore.

These verses don't speak of atonement for sin, either, do they? They speak of intense suffering, which we both agree happened in the Garden. It was in the D&C that I could find several other scriptures that spoke of Christ being CRUCIFIED for our sins.

[pam]

These verses don't speak of atonement for sin, either, do they?

Now you are being condescending. No matter what explanation we try to give with scriptures we believe speak of the Atonement as starting in the Garden of Gethsemane, you will find a way to dispute it.

If you don't believe that the atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane, that is your right and your privilege. But please don't come here in the guise of asking us to teach what we believe and dispute everything said. Frankly it's getting old.

[lattelady]

Pam,

I wasn't trying to be condescending. I'm sorry if you felt that way--it was not my intention. I asked, in my original post, for someone to show me where the "atonement in Gethsemane" teaching comes from. I have yet to see it. I'm sorry that it's getting old--I'm not trying to upset anyone or beat a dead horse. It is your right, as a Church, to teach that Jesus atoned for sin someplace other than the Cross. Your canon of scripture would seem to say something else, and that is what I'm struggling with. If my questions are getting old, you don't have to respond to me. I will understand if you don't want to talk about it anymore. I would still like to understand, though. Maybe someone else would be willing to help me understand it.

[lattelady]

One more verse that I think emphasizes the importance of focusing solely on the cross as the place of greatest importance when it comes to our sin's atonement:

Galatians 6:14 "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."