Authority

[roman]

I have answered you---you don't like the answer so you do your dance. I asked you to give the complete quote in context and you can't even though you say you have the book----who is outright dishonest about haveing the books now. and not addressing the quote.

First you say it doesn't exsist --now you say its 41 words out of context------you are the one who is being dishonest about this whole matter---give the complete context and expalin how I am interpertating it wrong------I ask this of you AGAIN.

I believe you are having trouble addressing the topic---AGAIN and STILL. Show me how I'm disreguarding the truth of 45 pages---with 41 select words.

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 20 2005, 02:26 AM

I have answered you---you don't like the answer so you do your dance. I asked you to give the complete quote in context and you can't even though you say you have the book----who is outright dishonest about haveing the books now. and not addressing the quote.

First you say it doesn't exsist --now you say its 41 words out of context------you are the one who is being dishonest about this whole matter---give the complete context and expalin how I am interpertating it wrong------I ask this of you AGAIN.

I believe you are having trouble addressing the topic---AGAIN and STILL. Show me how I'm disreguarding the truth of 45 pages---with 41 select words.

←

Roman,

No legitimate author or scholar would ever take misc phrases from 45 different pages, piece them together and try and pass it off and a quote, even with the ellipsises. In fact the definition of ellipsis is "The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding" You even used the ellipsises wrong, by defintion.

You can't say that the other 5000 words that you omitted were not necessary for understanding. It's intellectually dishonest. If you can't see that, then you are sorely lacking in ethical literary training.

The part of the 45 pages that you left out (which you would know if you had the book - and btw this is now the forth time that you have failed to speak forthrightly about it.) Says that there is a universal salvation that comes to all men by virtue of grace. So, all are saved. Further, there is a second or greater salvation of the righteous that comes to those who live righteously. Lastly, there is a third salvation that we understand as exaltation that comes to those who accept and follow all precepts necessary for such a reward.

It was that third type - exaltation that you tried to pass off as a general salvation.

You would have been better off to admit to either error or deception than to have forced the issue with me.

[roman]

snow;

Its time to put this subject to bed. Your ego or your insatious need to always claim victory will not allow you to deal with the subject at hand---the validity of the quotes and their context.

First you even denied they exsisted and then you moved on to a side topic of me having certain book. I answered you about the books--but you won't ackowledge that fact. When that didn't fly you turned your attention to me and said some pretty silly things to go with your wild accusations---one of them was that i got the quotes off the internet---------WRONG on your part----AGAIN and STILL.

Here is what I see---

Are the quotes real and were they actually said by lds leaders------YES

Am I taking them out of context----in my opinion NO

ARE you going to show how they are out of context----NO, you try and give a snow job by offering your opinion---but why don't you just show the context------you can't, because you know what the context really is. The authors of those quotes didn't just throw those statements out in the middle of another subject[as you would want everyone else to believe]-----no they are in context

Will you ever deal with the subject at hand---NO

When you think about it---your literary opinions are just that---yours and the side topic of me having the books is really irrelevant---even though I do have them----I borrowed them from my lds relatives.

I admit no error---and you have utterly failed to show otherwise. You would rather dance around side -topics

Post or say what you want--and I'm sure it will include your victory speech and more dancing on the real topic---to avoid the truth.

LDS have believed in the past that, others outside the lds church are not saved and have perpetuated that thought on into todays thinking-----simply because lds keep those quotes alive in the books--THEY PRINT. Oh you throw us a bone and say we are Christians---but you will not say and you cannot say that ---as Christians that others outside of lds salvation will spend eternity together with you ,in Heaven in the full presence of God-----Thats the real issue and you cannot back it in any way shape or form from mormon doctrine

continue it you want---but your unwillingness to be forthright on the topic---leaves you alone on this thread

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 24 2005, 12:02 AM

snow;

  Its time to put this subject to bed. Your ego or your insatious need to always claim victory will not allow you to deal with the subject at hand---the validity of the quotes and their context.

First you even denied they exsisted and then you moved on to a side topic of me having certain book. I answered you about the books--but you won't ackowledge that fact. When that didn't fly you turned your attention to me and said some pretty silly things to go with your wild accusations---one of them was that i got the quotes off the internet---------WRONG on your part----AGAIN and STILL.

Here is what I see---

  Are the quotes real and were they actually said by lds leaders------YES

  Am I taking them out of context----in my opinion NO

  ARE you going to show how they are out of context----NO, you try and give a snow job by offering your opinion---but why don't you just show the context------you can't, because you know what the context really is. The authors of those quotes didn't just throw those statements out in the middle of another subject[as you would want everyone else to believe]-----no they are in context

Will you ever deal with the subject at hand---NO

When you think about it---your literary opinions are just that---yours and the side topic of me having the books is really irrelevant---even though I do have them----I borrowed them from my lds relatives.

I admit no error---and you have utterly failed to show otherwise. You would rather dance around side -topics

Post or say what you want--and I'm sure it will include your victory speech and more dancing on the real topic---to avoid the truth.

LDS have believed in the past that, others outside the lds church are not saved and have perpetuated that thought on into todays thinking-----simply because lds keep those quotes alive in the books--THEY PRINT. Oh you throw us a bone and say we are Christians---but you will not say and you cannot say that ---as Christians that others outside of lds salvation will spend eternity together with you ,in Heaven in the full presence of God-----Thats the real issue and you cannot back it in any way shape or form from mormon doctrine

continue it you want---but your unwillingness to be forthright on the topic---leaves you alone on this thread

←

Roman,

Anyone who would take various phases totaling 41 words out of dozens of pages and try and pass them off as a single quote is dishonest. You are the one who did it and therefore you are dishonest. You are also blind. I told you exactly why the cherry-picked quotes were misleading as you posted them by explaining what the author was actually saying. For you to claim that I didn't deal with the matter at hand is also dishonest. I did and the proof is my previous post.

Additionally, It is a matter of LDS doctrine and we believe in a universal salvation. For you to still maintain that we don't is also dishonest. Not only are you in error, contrary to your claim, you are just plain deceitful.

Roman - I have no desire to carry on a discuss this subject with someone whose post are fundamentally dishonest.

Go prevaricate elsewhere where scruples are optional.

Note: That's five times in a row that you refuse to claim that you actually have the book you pretend to quote from. Obviously you don't.

[Ray]

Roman,

In case you need some assurance, you are right about our [LDS] beliefs regarding salvation.

And in case it might help you or anyone else reading this thread, I’ll give a quick summary of those beliefs.

We [LDS] believe that, because of Jesus Christ, all of mankind will receive a general salvation, meaning that all who were ever born (or who will be born) on this Earth will be redeemed from death, meaning that our eternal spirits will reunite with our physical bodies, our physical bodies then being immortal and never again to suffer corruption, meaning that neither our spirit our body will be subject to death.

From that general view of salvation, the issues remaining mainly concern what type of person we will be after the resurrection and where we will actually live, considering the fact that many of us do and will continue to behave differently than some others, and we will all need an actual place to call home since our bodies will actually occupy space.

And to address those issues, we [LDS] believe our Lord has revealed the fact that we will all be judged by our works and assigned to various kingdoms of glory, according to the heed and diligence we gave and will continue to give the laws and ordinances of His gospel.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 25 2005, 10:29 AM

Roman,

In case you need some assurance, you are right about our [LDS] beliefs regarding salvation.

And in case it might help you or anyone else reading this thread, I’ll give a quick summary of those beliefs.

We [LDS] believe that, because of Jesus Christ, all of mankind will receive a general salvation...

Oh Raymond,

Roman's basic premise was that some Mormons did not believe that non-Mormons could be Christian and therefore not saved. You are agreeing with him, saying that are saved.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow+Nov 25 2005, 11:42 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 25 2005, 10:29 AM

Roman,

In case you need some assurance, you are right about our [LDS] beliefs regarding salvation.

And in case it might help you or anyone else reading this thread, I’ll give a quick summary of those beliefs.

We [LDS] believe that, because of Jesus Christ, all of mankind will receive a general salvation...

Oh Raymond,

Roman's basic premise was that some Mormons did not believe that non-Mormons could be Christian and therefore not saved. You are agreeing with him, saying that are saved.

←

I don’t understand what you just said, Snow, but to clarify what I was trying to tell Roman, I will say that I do believe non-“Mormons” can be Christians and receive a certain degree of salvation, while only those who obey all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel will receive the very best blessings.

And btw, for purposes of discussion, I think it might help Roman, or anyone else reading this thread, to understand that the term “Mormon” can have reference to someone who believes all of the teachings which are now available in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whether that person lived recently or long ago in the past. Or in other words, the word “Mormon” can be used to refer to Moroni, and even to the apostle Paul, Nephi, Abraham, Isaac, and Adam, as they were also people like Mormon in how they followed Jesus Christ.

And btw, for anyone who doesn’t know it, my name is not Raymond, and Snow is only calling me by that name because he truly doesn’t know any better, even though I have told him my name is not Raymond and that he does not have my approval or authorization for calling me that. It is simply a game to him, even though he knows that type of behavior is offensive to the person he is speaking to.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 25 2005, 11:17 AM-->

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 25 2005, 11:42 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 25 2005, 10:29 AM

Roman,

In case you need some assurance, you are right about our [LDS] beliefs regarding salvation.

And in case it might help you or anyone else reading this thread, I’ll give a quick summary of those beliefs.

We [LDS] believe that, because of Jesus Christ, all of mankind will receive a general salvation...

Oh Raymond,

Roman's basic premise was that some Mormons did not believe that non-Mormons could be Christian and therefore not saved. You are agreeing with him, saying that are saved.

←

I don’t understand what you just said, Snow, but to clarify what I was trying to tell Roman, I will say that I do believe non-“Mormons” can be Christians and receive a certain degree of salvation, while only those who obey all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel will receive the very best blessings.

And btw, for purposes of discussion, I think it might help Roman, or anyone else reading this thread, to understand that the term “Mormon” can have reference to someone who believes all of the teachings which are now available in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whether that person lived recently or long ago in the past. Or in other words, the word “Mormon” can be used to refer to Moroni, and even to the apostle Paul, Nephi, Abraham, Isaac, and Adam, as they were also people like Mormon in how they followed Jesus Christ.

And btw, for anyone who doesn’t know it, my name is not Raymond, and Snow is only calling me by that name because he truly doesn’t know any better, even though I have told him my name is not Raymond and that he does not have my approval or authorization for calling me that. It is simply a game to him, even though he knows that type of behavior is offensive to the person he is speaking to.

←

Raymalious, (it's a term of endearment),

What's not to understand? The reason that this whole discussion exists is because Roman is trying to prove that some Mormons do not believe that non-Mormons are 1. Christians. 2. Candidates for salvation.

Then... you say you agree with him.

But - You don't really agree with him. You understand that 1. non-Mormons can be Christians and you probably agree that is doesn't even sound Mormonish to think of other "Christian" adherents as non-Christian - it's not the way we think and talk; and 2. non-LDS receive a general salvation (but we understand salvation to be more complex than just that).

In actuallity, you disagree with him. (although you should keep your eyes open because he keeps changing his mind).

[Ray]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 25 2005, 12:27 PM

The reason that this whole discussion exists is because Roman is trying to prove that some Mormons do not believe that non-Mormons are 1. Christians. 2. Candidates for salvation.

I think it might be best to try to define our terms, because from what I see that Roman is saying, I can both agree and disagree with him, depending on how I interpret his words.

Or in other words, I think it might help to define what a non-“Mormon” is, as well as what a “Mormon” is, and what a “Christian” is, which we should try to do without using those “words”.

For instance, if someone accepts some of the teachings of Jesus Christ, they could either be considered a Christian to the degree that they follow His teachings, or they could be considered not to be Christian based on the idea that a Christian is someone who totally accepts all of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Or in other words, the understanding of whether or not someone is a Christian depends upon a person’s understanding of what a Christian is, so I think we shoulld define the word “Christian” before determining whether or not someone is one.

And the same is also true for determining whether or not someone is a "Mormon", or a “candidate” for “salvation”.

For instance, I could say that everyone is a “candidate” for salvation, based on the idea that the gospel will eventually be revealed to everyone, while you might say that only those who receive salvation can truly be considered “candidates” for salvation, based on the idea that only those who accept the gospel will be capable of achieving salvation.

Also, to understand whether or not someone will receive salvation is dependent upon understanding how we define the word “salvation”, which is why I tried to define salvation in my post to Roman.

Anyway, what I was saying to Roman is that his understanding of our belief regarding salvation is correct, in that Roman believes that we believe that those who are not “Mormon” will not receive a fullness of salvation, entitling us to live our lives as God lives His. And whether or not you agree with what I have said will depend upon whether or not you accept the idea I have when using those words.

And btw, those "terms of endearment” are not endearing to me, and I have repeatedly asked you to stop, so the consequences of your dishonor to me are now upon your own head.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 25 2005, 12:00 PM

And btw, those "terms of endearment” are not endearing to me, and I have repeatedly asked you to stop, so the consequences of your dishonor to me are now upon your own head.

←

Raymalando,

Come now - the consequences of dishonor are now on my head? Well - how about this... the ramification of continual synaptic disfrutation are now causing malharmony within your soul.

How do you like them apples mommie? Me thinks you are wound a bit too tight.

BTW, I agree that terms need to be defined but the subtleties are lost on Roman.

[roman]

Ray;

I pretty much agree with what you said about my beliefs. i don't know if you would agree totally with them---but at least you addressed them in an intelligent manner.

I understand that your not endorsing my thoughts---but at least thanks for understanding my position

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 25 2005, 01:27 PM

The reason that this whole discussion exists is because Roman is trying to prove that some Mormons do not believe that non-Mormons are 1. Christians. 2. Candidates for salvation.

←

Exactly, and he's dead wrong on both counts.

[roman]

Originally posted by Outshined+Nov 26 2005, 09:33 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@Nov 25 2005, 01:27 PM

The reason that this whole discussion exists is because Roman is trying to prove that some Mormons do not believe that non-Mormons are 1. Christians. 2. Candidates for salvation.

←

Exactly, and he's dead wrong on both counts.

←

outshined:

wrong wrong wrong wrong as the day is long and a total misrepresentation of what I have said

1. my point was and always was------some lds don't think you can get saved outside of the lds church. My question was this---Do you as a lds believe that you and I will spend eternity together in the presecnce of The Father. A yes or no will do---

2. all are candidated for salvation----and I never said otherwise ---never

I would like to know where you think that I said that non lds could not be saved---please

[Outshined]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 26 2005, 09:47 AM

outshined:

wrong wrong wrong wrong as the day is long and a total misrepresentation of what I have said

1. my point was and always was------some lds don't think you can get saved outside of the lds church. My question was this---Do you as a lds believe that you and I will spend eternity together in the presecnce of The Father. A yes or no will do---

2. all are candidated for salvation----and I never said otherwise ---never

I would like to know where you think that I said that non lds could not be saved---please

←

Re-read the thread; you're beginning to slip. Salvation? Yes, exaltation? Only through the Church. You should know that by now.

Nice attempt to revise your claims, but you said specifically:

I have been told numerous times by lds that since i deny JS and the BoM--I can not be saved----I Ve also been told many times my water baptism is of no valve---a condition of lds salvation. In reality only a saved person should claim the name of Christ

On a grander scale lds doctrine and beliefs tell me I'm no christian--because true Christianity only comes thru the lds church

I then gave you quotes from "Mormon Doctrine" that proved these accusations are blatantly false. You've tried hard to misrepresent the beliefs of our church, but it doesn't fly here.

[roman]

Originally posted by Outshined+Nov 26 2005, 01:37 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-roman@Nov 26 2005, 09:47 AM

outshined:

wrong wrong wrong wrong as the day is long and a total misrepresentation of what I have said

1. my point was and always was------some lds don't think you can get saved outside of the lds church. My question was this---Do you as a lds believe that you and I will spend eternity together in the presecnce of The Father. A yes or no will do---

2. all are candidated for salvation----and I never said otherwise ---never

I would like to know where you think that I said that non lds could not be saved---please

←

Re-read the thread; you're beginning to slip. Salvation? Yes, exaltation? Only through the Church. You should know that by now.

Nice attempt to revise your claims, but you said specifically:

I have been told numerous times by lds that since i deny JS and the BoM--I can not be saved----I Ve also been told many times my water baptism is of no valve---a condition of lds salvation. In reality only a saved person should claim the name of Christ

On a grander scale lds doctrine and beliefs tell me I'm no christian--because true Christianity only comes thru the lds church

I then gave you quotes from "Mormon Doctrine" that proved these accusations are blatantly false. You've tried hard to misrepresent the beliefs of our church, but it doesn't fly here.

←

I stand by my statments---yes what you posted was lds doctrine, but where in the world to you get the idea that every single person who is mormon agrees with every single thought--practice and doctrine of the church. You should know that there are extremes of all kinds in the lds church---I have run into more than a few that agree with the thought I have posted. In other words some really take it to mean---as McConkie has said---"that there is no salvation outside of the church"

Now admit he said it---and are you to chichen to answer my question?

[Outshined]

I stand by my statments---yes what you posted was lds doctrine, but where in the world to you get the idea that every single person who is mormon agrees with every single thought--practice and doctrine of the church. You should know that there are extremes of all kinds in the lds church---I have run into more than a few that agree with the thought I have posted. In other words some really take it to mean---as McConkie has said---"that there is no salvation outside of the church"

The tapdance continues. Nope, you said:

lds doctrine and beliefs tell me I'm no christian--because true Christianity only comes thru the lds church

You also said no salvation outside the LDS Church, which has also been proven wrong. You said the doctrines say you aren't a Christian; now you try to say you meant people who don't follow the doctrines. Can't have it both ways.

Once again, what McConkie said was:

Salvation

Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind, excepting only the sons of perdition. In their case, after their resurrection, "they shall return again to their own place" (D. & C. 88:32); after coming forth in immortality and standing before the judgment bar, because they are "filthy still, ... they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." (2 Ne. 9:13-16.) They are resurrected but they are not redeemed from the devil. "They shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption." (Alma 12:18.) Thus it is that the Lord "saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." (D. & C. 76:40-48.) All others are saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment. (2 Ne. 9:18-27.)

Source: Mormon Doctrine

Hard to misinterpret. B)

[roman]

Did Mcconkie say that there was no salvation outside of the lds church----try answering a question for a change-----Oh well I know you won't answer so i will---------Yes he did Mormon Doctrine 2nd ed. page603

Also I'm not trying to have it both way---you just don't understand what i'm trying to say, but if you answer this question it will clear alot up

If I live by faith to the best of my ability in Jesus Christ and die professing Jesus as Lord and savior while denying JS, BoM, and the lds church------and you die confessing Jesus as Lord and savior and claiming JS BoM and lds church as true-----will we spend eternity together in Heaven in the presence of God the Father------as correct answer to this will show your understanding of McConkie and lds doctrine.

Please answer the question---please---a simple yes or no will be okay

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 26 2005, 12:00 PM

I stand by my statments---yes what you posted was lds doctrine, but where in the world to you get the idea that every single person who is mormon agrees with every single thought--practice and doctrine of the church. You should know that there are extremes of all kinds in the lds church---I have run into more than a few that agree with the thought I have posted. In other words some really take it to mean---as McConkie has said---"that there is no salvation outside of the church"

Now admit he said it---and are you to chichen to answer my question?

←

Roman,

You wouldn't know what Mormon Doctrine was, even if it snuck into your house last Thursday evening and took your sister on a date for cheeseburger at Wendy's

Here's the test: Without consulting the internet or other sources, define what constitutes LDS doctrine.

Prediction (which will shortly come true): you won't be able to answer correctly.

By the way, we know that McConkie said what you said he did. No one ever questioned that, but why would the Chechens be afraid to admit it. How about the Crimean Tartars?

[Outshined]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 26 2005, 04:15 PM

Did Mcconkie say that there was no salvation outside of the lds church----try answering a question for a change-----Oh well I know you won't answer so i will---------Yes he did Mormon Doctrine  2nd ed. page603

Also I'm not trying to have it both way---you just don't understand what i'm trying to say, but if you answer this question it will clear alot up

If I live by faith to the best of my ability in Jesus Christ and die professing Jesus as Lord and savior  while denying JS, BoM, and the lds church------and you die confessing Jesus as Lord and savior and claiming JS BoM and lds church as true-----will we spend eternity together in Heaven in the presence of God the Father------as correct answer to this will show your understanding of McConkie and lds doctrine.

Please answer the question---please---a simple yes or no will be okay

←

I understand why you're dancing around your changing accusations. And you do not understand LDS doctrines; that is quite evident in this thread.

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Snow@Nov 26 2005, 04:57 PM

Here's the test: Without consulting the internet or other sources, define what constitutes LDS doctrine.

Prediction (which will shortly come true): you won't be able to answer correctly.

←

I'd say you're right.

[roman]

First of all -----yes It was questioned that McConkie said the quote.

I have offered a way to bring some understanding on both our parts

answer the question---this is about the 6th time I've ask it----We both us us die in our faiths and I deny JS BoM And the lds church and you the same only you endorse JS BoM and the lds church will we spend eternity together in Heaven in the presence of the Father.

This should bring some understanding to all of this

Just for thought---Talmage says that salvation is in the church and of the church and is obtained ONLY through the church

Now back to your misunderstanding

I put out a premise on salvation of non lds---you guys answer with doctrine---but my point is not all lds endorse the docrtrine as you---they would side more with the 4 quotes I gave----why does it bother you so much that some lds believe a bit different that you2----

as for your question on doctrine----most lds can't even answer that, but for me doctrine is a set of beliefs---from scripture that form the foundation of faith and practice

Now quit stalling balking and dancing and answer my question for the 7th time I ask---please

[Outshined]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 26 2005, 07:56 PM

answer the question---this is about the 6th time I've ask it----We both us us die in our faiths and I deny JS BoM And the lds church and you the same only you endorse JS BoM and the lds church will we spend eternity together in Heaven in the presence of the Father.

That has been answered more than once on this thread. You can not enter the Celestial Kingdom if you are not LDS. The "misunderstanding" has been your insistence that Church doctrine says there is no salvation outside the LDS Church, and that non-LDS are not Christian. That is not true at all, though you have claimed that it is.

Now back to your misunderstanding

The misunderstanding (willing or not) has been yours, as we've shown.

I put out a premise on salvation of non lds---you guys answer with doctrine---but my point is not all lds endorse the docrtrine as you---they would side more with the 4 quotes I gave----why does it bother you so much that some lds believe a bit different that you2----

I have never met a member who would agree with your altered view of doctrine, and don't believe you can provide one. This is all your personal theory, nothing more.

Now quit stalling balking and dancing and answer my question for the 7th time I ask---please

←

What's funny is that you've been answered over and over, yet pretend not to have heard... Once again, please do some study about LDS beliefs, it can only help you.

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 26 2005, 05:56 PM

First of all -----yes It was questioned that McConkie said the quote.

That's because you took 3 seperate phrases from out of 45 pages of text and tried to pass it off as a single quote. It was not, in fact, a quote but rather 3 quotes passed off as one. No could turn to a book and find the exact quote you tried to pass off because no quote (as you posted it) existed. Since you explained it and apologized for the deception, we now agree that he said all that.

answer the question---this is about the 6th time I've ask it----We both us us die in our faiths and I deny JS BoM And the lds church and you the same only you endorse JS BoM and the lds church will we spend eternity together in Heaven in the presence of the Father.

Sorry - I don't understand the question - but I can say that endorsing the Book of Mormon is not a prerequisite for salvation.

Just for thought---Talmage says that salvation is in the church and of the church and is obtained ONLY through the church

OH BRUDDER - HERE WE GO AGAIN... What Talmages says is "The extent of the Atonement (salvation) is universal, applying alike to all descendants of Adam. Even the unbeliever, the heathen, all are redeemed by the Saviour's self-sacrifice from the individual consequences of the fall..." He then goes on to explain what McConkie explained that there is a general salvation and there is exaltation and their is other stuff in between.

You can't learn some folks nuttin.

I put out a premise on salvation of non lds---you guys answer with doctrine---but my point is not all lds endorse the docrtrine as you---they would side more with the 4 quotes I gave----why does it bother you so much that some lds believe a bit different that you2----

It doesn't bother me - I just don't believe some of what you tell us.

as for your question on doctrine----most lds can't even answer that, but for me doctrine is a set of beliefs---from scripture that form the foundation of faith and practice

In a general sense - ya. But that's not what what we mean when we talk about doctrine. We use the term to mean our official non-changing set of belief that are eternal truths, not mere interpretations.

Now quit stalling balking and dancing and answer my question for the 7th time I ask---please

I'm sorry, I am not dilberately not answering -- what's the question?

[roman]

answer the question---this is about the 6th time I've ask it----We both us us die in our faiths and I deny JS BoM And the lds church and you the same only you endorse JS BoM and the lds church will we spend eternity together in Heaven in the presence of the Father.

That has been answered more than once on this thread. You can not enter the Celestial Kingdom if you are not LDS. The "misunderstanding" has been your insistence that Church doctrine says there is no salvation outside the LDS Church, and that non-LDS are not Christian. That is not true at all, though you have claimed that it is.

Okay lets take this a bit deeper then---

I already believe in Jesus as Lord and savior----I have been called by The Father; sealed by his Holy Spirit----received his son. I have received peace thru the blood of the cross----and entered Gods rest. I have an intimate relationship with God the Father---NOW thru Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. I already posess eternal life----I already have the assurance of Heaven--- At times I already dwell in the presences of God------but you want me to believe that God will give me his best all the days of my life---give me precious promises that effect me now and in the life to come---but in the end I can't have his best simply because I went to the wrong church and didn't receive JS and your gospel?

That is what you are saying---remember you claim that I christian---so why does God give me the best--now but in the end pull back on his promises---according to lds doctrine

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 27 2005, 06:00 AM

I already believe in Jesus as Lord and savior----I have been called by The Father; sealed by his Holy Spirit----received his son. I have received peace thru the blood of the cross----and entered Gods rest. I have an intimate relationship with God the Father---NOW thru Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. I already posess eternal life----I already have the assurance of Heaven--- At times I already dwell in the presences of God------but you want me to believe that God will give me his best all the days of my life---give me precious promises that effect me now and in the life to come---but in the end I can't have his best simply because I went to the wrong church and didn't receive JS and your gospel?

No that's not it. Here what Joseph Fielding Smith taught:

"To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.

He (the Lord) commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We must receive the temple endowment.

We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--

Love and worship God.

Love our neighbor.

Repent of our wrongdoings.

Live the law of chastity.

Pay honest tithes and offerings.

Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.

Speak the truth always.

Obey the Word of Wisdom.

Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

Keep the Sabbath day holy.

Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

Have family and individual prayers every day.

Honor our parents.

Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

Study the scriptures.

Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord."

No offense to you personally but when I hear stuff like " I already believe in Jesus as Lord and savior----I have been called by The Father; sealed by his Holy Spirit----received his son. I have received peace thru the blood of the cross----and entered Gods rest. I have an intimate relationship with God the Father---NOW thru Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. I already posess eternal life----I already have the assurance of Heaven--- At times I already dwell in the presences of God-" - well I just kinda roll my eyes and think, yeah, whatever... because so many of the people that say the same thing are so 'not-all-that'... the goofball charlatans on TV, unethical business men, criminals, whoever, of even the rank and file person on the street is no more Christlike in all their doings than is an atheist.

Forget all the talk and show me a person who through their actions lives a Christlike life and then the number of people that talk like that and ARE like that becomes a much smaller number.

That is what you are saying---remember you claim that I christian---so why does God give me the best--now but in the end pull back on his promises---according to lds doctrine

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What? I don't understand the question.