Are we safer? Are we better off?

[boyando]

Actually the phrase is "Speak softly, but carry a big stick," and it was Theodore Roosevelt, not Franklin Delano Roosevelt who said it.

T Roosevelt was referring to his strong belief that diplomacy was the most effective way to deal with areas of disagreement with other countries.

Of course, his diplomacy was always backed up with the threat of the big stick of military might.

Sis

You are so right. My bad

[OmahaLDS]

Again, a threat assessment relates to who can actually do the most damage and not which one is the dog that barks the most. What we call Al Qaeda is a loose and for the most part autonomous cohorts of the mujaheddin that share a common ideology. Hezbollah has the organizational structure, finance, training, support and operational capabilities that Al Qaeda lacks. Remember, their slogan "was, is and always will be: death to America" That is a pretty telling statement.

You are making an argument in the complete absence of facts or understanding.

When has Hezbollah ever made any indication that they want to seek a conflict with the US on US soil?

[ozzy]

I don't want to stir the pot or offend or anything like that. I did look at the sources provided by Islander on page one of this thread. Thanks again for supplying them. I just want to say that you should be very careful believing them. They are not very credible and are highly biased. These by themselves express the high possibility that they aren't true.

This doesn't change my stance that we still live in a very dangerous world and that terrorism certainly aggravates that status.

[Traveler]

Thanks for the appeal to authority.

My sources are a Masters Degree in Middle Eastern studies, I lived in the Middle East, I speak Arabic, and I have studied/worked in the region for a decade.

Do you know of Omar Kadar?

None of this has any bearing on your comments regarding beliefs, water, or anything similar.

Additional, Bahrain is surprisingly open for a Middle Eastern country, has one of the most open economies in the Middle East, does not require the hijab, and sold alcohol, an oddity. There was some effort to end this, but I do not know if it passed.

Bahrain is very open to forigners

You might want to ensure the person you are speaking to did not live in Bahrain (or anywhere else in the Middle East) before lecturing them on Bahrain.

Can you cite a source where these three are specifically called out? It is certainly possible, but I have never seen them specifically delineated.

Bahrain is very open to foreigners. There is reason Bahrain is open to foreigners. The ruling family is Sunni and related to the Saudi ruling family. I am surprised you are unaware of this. The citizens of Bahrain are 90% Shiite which causes tension between the ruling family but there are changes taking place. For someone that claims to have lived in the Middle East you do not seem to know much about Bahrain. I was envied to the home of my friend (in Bahrain) for a week long wedding.

At the center of the capitol city of Bahrain there is a shrine dedicated to the “Tree of life”. At the shrine is, in Arabic, and explanation of the tree of life and the other two gifts of Allah to the people of Arabia. At least that is what I am told because I do not read Arabic – but is see no reason for the people of Bahrain to lie to me about this.

The current conflict has nothing to do with Omar, of the Rashidun. What are you talking about?

My Omar reference was to Omar Kadar who is the son of Palestinian immigrants that settled in Provo, Utah. And as I have pointed out he has been an advisor to several administrations and an advisor on Palestinian Israeli conflict.

.....

So you have said, but you have failed to recognize the flaws in this argument, pointed out above. Restating a failed argument does little to make it more valid.

Can you tell me the main source of Jerusalem water? Anciently and modern?

No, some people understand it quite well.

Really? Explain to me why there are claims (reported by news agencies quoting us sources) that Iran is supporting Sunni terror groups and there are no efforts to correct this? Also will you explain why there is tension between the Saudi royal family and Iran each year during the hajj?

Again not true, Bahrain has a lot of oil, and is not related to the Sauds. Saudi Arabia comes from the Saud family. The Bahrainis are Khalifas.

It is my understanding that Bahrain has refineries and that the oil reserves are offshore and under treaty with Saudi Arabia. I was told by my friend that the Khalifas are not historical to Bahrain but were placed into power by the Saudi family and Great Britain and that they are related to the Saudi family if only by marriage. Are you aware of the political tensions in that country?

Where did you live in the Middle East?

The Traveler

[OmahaLDS]

Do you know of Omar Kadar?

Unless you mean the Canadian in Guantanamo, No. It does not really matter. It has no bearing on the issue, and your relationship by marriage conveys no knowledge.

Bahrain is very open to foreigners. There is reason Bahrain is open to foreigners. The ruling family is Sunni and related to the Saudi ruling family.

You have changed your argument. You said Bahrain was "one of the most oppressive countries of the Middle East".

Which is it?

Also Bahrain's royal family are the Khalifahs...

Al Khalifa family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Sauds are the royal family of Saudi Arabia...

Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is entirely possible there has been some intermarriage between the royal families in recent years, they are NOT "ruled by a branch of the same family that rules Saudi Arabia," unless you want to go back hundreds of years to find a common ancestor.

I am surprised you are unaware of this. The citizens of Bahrain are 90% Shiite which causes tension between the ruling family but there are changes taking place. For someone that claims to have lived in the Middle East you do not seem to know much about Bahrain. I was envied to the home of my friend (in Bahrain) for a week long wedding.

Well I am certainly sure you learned far more in that week than in the years I lived there. In fact the number of egregious errors you have made would indicate the opposite, but perhaps not.

At the center of the capitol city of Bahrain there is a shrine dedicated to the “Tree of life”. At the shrine is, in Arabic, and explanation of the tree of life and the other two gifts of Allah to the people of Arabia. At least that is what I am told because I do not read Arabic – but is see no reason for the people of Bahrain to lie to me about this.

Perhaps you can point to a source? I link would be nice. Photo even better.

My Omar reference was to Omar Kadar who is the son of Palestinian immigrants that settled in Provo, Utah. And as I have pointed out he has been an advisor to several administrations and an advisor on Palestinian Israeli conflict.

Do you have a CV for Omar Kadar?

Can you tell me the main source of Jerusalem water? Anciently and modern?

There is a source inside Jerusalem, tunneled beneath the walls. It is possible to see it if you visit Jerusalem. I do not remember the name. Additionally something like 30% of Israel's water comes from the Jordan River. I suspect that may be the source.

Really? Explain to me why there are claims (reported by news agencies quoting us sources) that Iran is supporting Sunni terror groups and there are no efforts to correct this? Also will you explain why there is tension between the Saudi royal family and Iran each year during the hajj?

Given your lack of research on this prior to engaging in the discussion, I am not sure feeding you the information would be useful. Additionally the Shiat Ali are a somewhat complex group. If you like I can recommend books. Dr. Moomen's is a very good primer, probably the best.

Also you are confusing politics and religion. Iran will support whoever satisfies their national aims, religion notwithstanding, so their support of a Sunni group is irrevelent with regards to their own faith. The differences between Shiat Ali and Sunni are minimal compared to differences between Catholics and Protestants, for example.

It is my understanding that Bahrain has refineries and that the oil reserves are offshore and under treaty with Saudi Arabia.

Let's see a source for that.

Here is one you can start with...

http://oilandgasdirectory.com/2009/research/Bahrain.pdf

I was told by my friend that the Khalifas are not historical to Bahrain but were placed into power by the Saudi family and Great Britain and that they are related to the Saudi family if only by marriage.

Your information is naturally flawed. The Khalifas left the Arabian peninsula in the 1700's.

Are you aware of the political tensions in that country?

Yes.

Where did you live in the Middle East?

Here and there.

[OmahaLDS]

I don't want to stir the pot or offend or anything like that. I did look at the sources provided by Islander on page one of this thread. Thanks again for supplying them. I just want to say that you should be very careful believing them. They are not very credible and are highly biased. These by themselves express the high possibility that they aren't true.

Unfortunately this is not uncommon. More embarrassingly, given most member's predilection for one pole of the political spectrum, and that pole's predilection to demonize Muslims, most Church members are doing to Muslims what was/is done to the Church as an institution and Church members individually throughout history. There is not much difference between anti-Islam sentiment and anti-Mormon sentiment, and you would think most Church members would recognize the parallels.

Every time an anti-Mormon comes out with a half-baked, clearly unintelligent criticism of Mormons, most Church members will see it for what it is. When an anti-Islam critic comes out with a similarly half-baked, clearly unintelligent criticism of Muslims, too many Church members jump on the bandwagon.

This doesn't change my stance that we still live in a very dangerous world and that terrorism certainly aggravates that status.

It does help to understand why they are the way they are. Oddly enough, given the anti-Hezbollah sentiment going round, Hezbollah is capable of being engaged in a political process. The leaders can be reasoned with. They use terrorism, not because they are crazy, but because it is a useful tactic to achieve their aims given the arms imbalance. Their aims are not necessarily the most noble, but the can be reasoned with to large degree. Al-Qaeda, not so much, but to place Hezbollah in the same league with Al-Qaeda is like putting the Mafia in the same league with a street thug. He's certainly no saint, but the Godfather is a businessman, and he is intelligent enough to know when to step back from the brink. The street thug is not.

[Traveler]

Unless you mean the Canadian in Guantanamo, No. It does not really matter. It has no bearing on the issue, and your relationship by marriage conveys no knowledge.

You have changed your argument. You said Bahrain was "one of the most oppressive countries of the Middle East".

Which is it?

Also Bahrain's royal family are the Khalifahs...

Al Khalifa family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Sauds are the royal family of Saudi Arabia...

Ibn Saud of Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it is entirely possible there has been some intermarriage between the royal families in recent years, they are NOT "ruled by a branch of the same family that rules Saudi Arabia," unless you want to go back hundreds of years to find a common ancestor.

Well I am certainly sure you learned far more in that week than in the years I lived there. In fact the number of egregious errors you have made would indicate the opposite, but perhaps not.

Perhaps you can point to a source? I link would be nice. Photo even better.

Do you have a CV for Omar Kadar?

There is a source inside Jerusalem, tunneled beneath the walls. It is possible to see it if you visit Jerusalem. I do not remember the name. Additionally something like 30% of Israel's water comes from the Jordan River. I suspect that may be the source.

Given your lack of research on this prior to engaging in the discussion, I am not sure feeding you the information would be useful. Additionally the Shiat Ali are a somewhat complex group. If you like I can recommend books. Dr. Moomen's is a very good primer, probably the best.

Also you are confusing politics and religion. Iran will support whoever satisfies their national aims, religion notwithstanding, so their support of a Sunni group is irrevelent with regards to their own faith. The differences between Shiat Ali and Sunni are minimal compared to differences between Catholics and Protestants, for example.

Let's see a source for that.

Here is one you can start with...

http://oilandgasdirectory.com/2009/research/Bahrain.pdf

Your information is naturally flawed. The Khalifas left the Arabian peninsula in the 1700's.

Yes.

Here and there.

First I must apologize to the forum for an error – I entered hajj in my post instead of jihad as comparable to Crusades.

As for water being more important in the Middle East than oil I will provide this link http://mideastnews.com/water.htm

For anyone interested.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

......

You have changed your argument. You said Bahrain was "one of the most oppressive countries of the Middle East".

Which is it?

The Sunni control over the predominate Shiite citizens of Bahrain is oppressive.

Shiite citizens of Bahrain are not allowed to use public beaches, serve in the military, hold any management positions in the work place (especially government or civil positions), be a civil judge or hold any public elected office. A Shiite can be held indefinitely without any accusation of any crime. A warrant is not need to search any Shiite home or private place. Often upper middle class Shiites will have their children abducted by authorities and held for ransom or to demand political conformity under these provisions of the constitution. As a foreigner I had more latitude to see “political prisoners” and convey messages from relatives than Shiite citizens.

Bahrain is the most oppressive country towards it own citizens I have ever visited. It is true that a drunken foreigner is treated with greater respect. Some may think that to be an open and liberal attitude but the situation is worse than apartheid or segregation and borders on slavery.

The Traveler

[OmahaLDS]

First I must apologize to the forum for an error – I entered hajj in my post instead of jihad as comparable to Crusades.

Completely void of any comparative aspects. In the Hajj pilgrims travel to Mecca, only wear what equate to two large towels, and can carry no weapons. Crusaders traveled to the Holy Land in full armor and killed a huge population of Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

How are the two mildly equal?

As for water being more important in the Middle East than oil I will provide this link http://mideastnews.com/water.htm

For anyone interested.

This is not what you said. You said...

"It is not about territory or oil – it is about water. This is why Israel is such a thorn to Islamic peoples that are wealthy with oil; Israel controls the water – especially the water of Jerusalem."

Israel does not control much water at all.

Can you support your claim or have you abandoned it?

[OmahaLDS]

The Sunni control over the predominate Shiite citizens of Bahrain is oppressive.

How? Shiites are discriminated against in some areas, but the same situation exists in parts of the US for African/Asian/Mexican-Americans. Is the US oppressive now?

Explain your argument.

Shiite citizens of Bahrain are not allowed to use public beaches, serve in the military, hold any management positions in the work place (especially government or civil positions), be a civil judge or hold any public elected office.

It is not that you are wrong, it is that it would be so easy for you to find out you are wrong...

"Bahrain held parliamentary elections on 25 November 2006 for the 40-seat lower house of parliament, the Chamber of Deputies, as well as municipal elections. There was a 72% turnout in the first round of polling. As expected by most observers, Shi'a and Sunni Islamists dominated the poll, winning a clean sweep in the first round of voting"

Bahraini parliamentary election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know a Shia in the Bahraini military, but I will let you post your evidence that they are excluded from the military.

A Shiite can be held indefinitely without any accusation of any crime. A warrant is not need to search any Shiite home or private place.

You're talking about the Middle East. Anyone can be held indefinitely for whatever reason the person in charge wants.

Often upper middle class Shiites will have their children abducted by authorities and held for ransom or to demand political conformity under these provisions of the constitution. As a foreigner I had more latitude to see “political prisoners” and convey messages from relatives than Shiite citizens.

Evidence?

Bahrain is the most oppressive country towards it own citizens I have ever visited.

Your lack of travel does not constitute truth.

It is true that a drunken foreigner is treated with greater respect.

If you had ever been to Bahrain you would know that public drunkenness is a serious offense and you are briefed on this upon arrival.

Some may think that to be an open and liberal attitude but the situation is worse than apartheid or segregation and borders on slavery.

You do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about on any of the subjects in this thread. Having a Muslim in-law, and attending school with a Muslim does not mean you are knowledgeable on the Middle East.

I would highly recommend you stop posting and start reading.

[rameumptom]

I think my main concern with the Administration has been their initial claim that each of these terrorist attacks was not a terrorist attack OR was a lone gunman. After a little research, in each case it has been found that they all were terrorists that had contact with Al Qaeda. Janet Napolitano really should have stayed off the weekend talk shows if she couldn't think straight enough to say that the system DIDN'T work. Unless, of course, the system is that the CIA gathers the data, sits on it, and then we have passengers tackle the bad guy as he tries to set off the bomb. She should be fired.

This is getting to be a pattern of denial. Even the innocuous couple that slipped into the White House party demonstrated that the Administration is not too worried about potential terror issues. They want to distance themselves so far from GWBush that their knee jerk reaction is to do nothing and to initially deny that there is any real threat.

[Islander]

Beyond the political leaning of the person, your worldview is shaped by your life experiences, psychological makeup and social constructs. Meaning, you become a pragmatist or an ideologue. The last 12 months suggest we are in the presence of a group that lives in a construct of its own design totally divorced from reality. Ideology seems more important than reality. That would not be so bad if they would be willing to listen to the dissenters which appears to be (ignoring them) the new sport; crush the opposing view, who cares about the merits of the argument.

Mark Twain once said: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

[OmahaLDS]

Beyond the political leaning of the person, your worldview is shaped by your life experiences, psychological makeup and social constructs. Meaning, you become a pragmatist or an ideologue. The last 12 months suggest we are in the presence of a group that lives in a construct of its own design totally divorced from reality.

I would disagree. Al-Qaeda exists in a completely real world. The way they fund their operations, deal with the opposition of the US government, and carry out their attacks indicates the live in the real world. They understand what they are doing. That is precisely the problem.

Their motivation is even based on a recognition of the real world. It is simply that their objectives for the world are somewhat unreasonable.

Ideology seems more important than reality. That would not be so bad if they would be willing to listen to the dissenters which appears to be (ignoring them) the new sport; crush the opposing view, who cares about the merits of the argument.

How would you define dissenters? Al-Qaeda is a fringe movement, and as such dissent is irrelevant. If you are talking about Islam in general, the issue is far more complex.

Mark Twain once said: "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

I would agree entirely, when it comes to Islam what people do not know gets them into significant trouble. This is decidedly odd because BYU has a fantastic Arabic program, ME translation series, and ME involvement in general. Why membership ignores the valuable resources from LDS sources, I have never understood.

[talisyn]

OmahaLDS, he was making a slam against the Obama presidency. But I enjoyed your post

[OmahaLDS]

OmahaLDS, he was making a slam against the Obama presidency. But I enjoyed your post

Oh, I assumed it was still a Hezbollah/Al-Qaeda issue. If he is talking about the Administration I would say he is wrong as well. I share the Administration's ideology, and disagree with their actions.

[Traveler]

How? Shiites are discriminated against in some areas, but the same situation exists in parts of the US for African/Asian/Mexican-Americans. Is the US oppressive now?

Explain your argument.

It is not that you are wrong, it is that it would be so easy for you to find out you are wrong...

"Bahrain held parliamentary elections on 25 November 2006 for the 40-seat lower house of parliament, the Chamber of Deputies, as well as municipal elections. There was a 72% turnout in the first round of polling. As expected by most observers, Shi'a and Sunni Islamists dominated the poll, winning a clean sweep in the first round of voting"

Bahraini parliamentary election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know a Shia in the Bahraini military, but I will let you post your evidence that they are excluded from the military.

You're talking about the Middle East. Anyone can be held indefinitely for whatever reason the person in charge wants.

Evidence?

Your lack of travel does not constitute truth.

If you had ever been to Bahrain you would know that public drunkenness is a serious offense and you are briefed on this upon arrival.

You do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about on any of the subjects in this thread. Having a Muslim in-law, and attending school with a Muslim does not mean you are knowledgeable on the Middle East.

I would highly recommend you stop posting and start reading.

Have you been to Bahrain? Have you visited the capitol and seen the Shrine at the city center that speaks of the 3 gifts of Allah? That you said before you knew nothing about?

The major water source near Israel is the Jordan River. Who controls the Sea of Galilee and any water released from there to the Jordan River or other canals? Currently the water is divided by international treaty – But who (what country) actually controls the equipment that releases the water?

The Traveler

[Islander]

Oh, I assumed it was still a Hezbollah/Al-Qaeda issue. If he is talking about the Administration I would say he is wrong as well. I share the Administration's ideology, and disagree with their actions.

Omaha:

Wikipedia is a trailing news source. I suggest you stop trying to argue an issue where it is obvious you have some information gaps.

Since you admitedly share the Administration's ideology, you seek to reaffirm your position and close the door to any and all opposing views while ignoring the weight of the counterpoint offered. It is not a profitable exchange at this junction.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Islander

[Traveler]

Completely void of any comparative aspects. In the Hajj pilgrims travel to Mecca, only wear what equate to two large towels, and can carry no weapons. Crusaders traveled to the Holy Land in full armor and killed a huge population of Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

How are the two mildly equal?

This is not what you said. You said...

"It is not about territory or oil – it is about water. This is why Israel is such a thorn to Islamic peoples that are wealthy with oil; Israel controls the water – especially the water of Jerusalem."

Israel does not control much water at all.

Can you support your claim or have you abandoned it?

Your posts are odd and I find them a bit corrosive??? I apologized for the error of saying the Hajj was compatible to the Crusades – When I realized my error I apologized said that I should have typed jihad. And so you criticize again for saying the two are not compatible. I do not know why you then went on to talk about the Hajj? Are you saying or implying that Crusade and jihad are in any way similar? Really?

As for water - anyone living in a desert knows the importance of water and knows land is useless without water. Perhaps you would be so kind to explain how land without access to water in arid places can be so important?

Again since I have provided a link that says directly water is more important than oil in the desert areas of the Middle East and you still insist water is not important – I am becoming very suspicious of you and your responses. So now I ask you – since you are the expert here – What in the Middle East (especially Israel and the surrounding area) is more important than water?

Also during your studies and travel were you more associated with Sunni or Shiite?

The Traveler

The Traveler

[OmahaLDS]

Have you been to Bahrain? Have you visited the capitol and seen the Shrine at the city center that speaks of the 3 gifts of Allah? That you said before you knew nothing about?

As previously asked, where is this shrine? Given the wealth of tourism data on the internet, I am sure you should be able to find out what you are talking about, because I am not sure. I asked this before...

"Perhaps you can point to a source? I link would be nice. Photo even better."

I suspect you are once again not clear about what you are talking about.

The major water source near Israel is the Jordan River. Who controls the Sea of Galilee and any water released from there to the Jordan River or other canals? Currently the water is divided by international treaty – But who (what country) actually controls the equipment that releases the water?

Who? Since your original comment was...

"It is not about territory or oil – it is about water. This is why Israel is such a thorn to Islamic peoples that are wealthy with oil; Israel controls the water – especially the water of Jerusalem."

I would like some support for this. You might want to also clarify how Muslims in Indonesia are impacted by Israeli water control (which you have not proven).

[OmahaLDS]

Omaha:

Wikipedia is a trailing news source. I suggest you stop trying to argue an issue where it is obvious you have some information gaps.

Since you admitedly share the Administration's ideology, you seek to reaffirm your position and close the door to any and all opposing views while ignoring the weight of the counterpoint offered. It is not a profitable exchange at this junction.

I think you need to reconsider your position. It seems between us, you are the individual using extremely biased sources without consideration to opposing views, at least with respect to this discussion.

As for not being profitable, you claimed knowledge and demonstrated none. Wisdom is ultimately recognizing that not matter how much you know, you know less the more you learn.

I am not sure you have studied this to the point that you recognize how little you know.

[OmahaLDS]

Your posts are odd and I find them a bit corrosive???

Traveler, you need to really consider your comments. You start off saying...

"please realize that you do not know squat and start doing some research before displaying your ignorance. "

...and then spend post after post proving that you do not have the slightest clue about this subject. Your mistakes are piling up every post you make. So how you can call my post corrosive (which makes no sense given the definition of the word) when you started out trumpeting your knowledge? The fact that you don't really understand anything concerning this subject matter, and your arrogance over your complete lack of knowledge is really more of a self-imposed problem than it is mine for pointing it out.

I apologized for the error of saying the Hajj was compatible to the Crusades – When I realized my error I apologized said that I should have typed jihad.

You might want to check your posts, since you apologized for something that you never did.

And so you criticize again for saying the two are not compatible.

Neither Jihad nor Hajj are comparable to the Crusades.

I do not know why you then went on to talk about the Hajj? Are you saying or implying that Crusade and jihad are in any way similar? Really?

Do you mean "are NOT in any way similar?" or "are in any way similar?"

As for water - anyone living in a desert knows the importance of water and knows land is useless without water. Perhaps you would be so kind to explain how land without access to water in arid places can be so important?

I never said it was unimportant. I said your comment...

"This is why Israel is such a thorn to Islamic peoples that are wealthy with oil; Israel controls the water – especially the water of Jerusalem."

Your comment is completely false, especially concerning the fact that Israel has no impact on water in Malaysia (which is predominantly Islamic).

Again since I have provided a link that says directly water is more important than oil in the desert areas of the Middle East and you still insist water is not important – I am becoming very suspicious of you and your responses. So now I ask you – since you are the expert here – What in the Middle East (especially Israel and the surrounding area) is more important than water?

Once again I never did anything you said. I pointed out that your link does not support your claim...

"This is why Israel is such a thorn to Islamic peoples that are wealthy with oil; Israel controls the water – especially the water of Jerusalem. "

Also during your studies and travel were you more associated with Sunni or Shiite?

Your questions are not all that valid. You need to be specific.

Which Sunnis?

Maliki?

Hanafi?

Sufi?

Hanbali?

Which Shias?

Twlevers?

The secret Seveners?

Ismailis?

Perhaps the Aga Khan?

[ozzy]

If you are really interested in a good book on the subject Dr. Augustus Norton has written a nice, compact history on Hezbollah.

Amazon.com: Hezbollah: A Short History (Princeton Studies in Muslim Politics) (9780691131245): Augustus Richard Norton: Books

They are interesting group, they are very interested in taking care of people while killing others. In many ways they are like a violent version of the Salvation Army. They are bizarre if you do not understand them. If you do understand them, they are very calculating, but still somewhat bizarre.

Thanks Omaha. I will have to look for it some time. Sadly that will have to wait as school starts again on Tuesday and my time will be short.

Currently I know nothing whatsoever about hezbollah. I did look at the sources provided earlier, but I regret to say that I didn't find them to be very credible (no offense Islander :)).

[OmahaLDS]

Thanks Omaha. I will have to look for it some time. Sadly that will have to wait as school starts again on Tuesday and my time will be short.

Currently I know nothing whatsoever about hezbollah. I did look at the sources provided earlier, but I regret to say that I didn't find them to be very credible (no offense Islander :)).

Hezbollah is really odd because they operate a very large and well-operated social needs system (medical clinics, day care, schools, etc...), so to focus on terrorism is really missing the mark. They also have fairly well defined goals, that do not include the US. Attacking the US would really run counter to their goals, and hurt their funding.

Unlike Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah can be negotiated with, if with difficulty. I really think considering them Mafia is better than simple terrorists. As I said before, the Godfather operates according to a different set of morals and rules, but there are still morals and rules. Given their size and scope making them persona non grata is simply not a possibility, and bringing them into the system has a much better chance of curbing their violence than simply labeling them and attacking them.

[ozzy]

Hmmm okay, thanks. I think I understand.

[OmahaLDS]

There is another conflict in the Middle East that few from the West have any understanding. That is the conflict between Shiite and Sunni. Few in the West – and this includes within the USA administrations such as the state department, CIA (and other intelligence organizations) and Home Land Security even know which Islamic fundamentalist organizations are Shiite and Sunni. For example is Al Qaeda predominantly Shiite or Sunni? The reason this is important is because of fundamental differences and that each needs to be approached and dealt with differently. The resent Terror plots (Texas and North West airlines) involved which group – Shiite or Sunni? Try to find that in the News. If anyone can tell me which group (Shiite or Sunni) were involved in these incidents (without looking it up) I will believe you are somewhat informed – If you do not know, then please realize that you do not know squat and start doing some research before displaying your ignorance.

The Traveler

BTW - Bahrain has no oil but is ruled by a branch of the same family that rules Saudi Arabia.

Traveler, since I was recently told "Implying that people who disagree with you have no clue what they are talking about (ie., 'put little effort into education') is a violation of site rule #3."

http://www.lds.net/forums/current-events/29890-budget-cuts.html

I thought I would let you prove that I "do not know squat" and I need to "start doing some research before displaying your ignorance" about a subject I have studied my whole life. Since many of your comments seem to have no factual support, I can only assume that I am still wrong and was wondering if you could provide support for your claims.

It is not as if the situation is hypocritical?