Moses 1:33, 38

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Worlds without number and the passing of one earth as another earth comes into existence. These two specific verses have taken on a different meaning.

Today, in Gospel Essentials class, we were talking about the current lesson - The Creation - and Moses 1:33 and 38 light a bug underneath me.

33: And worlds without number have I created; and I created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

38: And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

Why I mentioned this is because of one simple reality. First, verse 33, God revealed to Moses (as Joseph Smith had translated) that God created - through His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, many worlds that are without number.

Neptune had yet to be discovered (1846) when Joseph Smith translated Moses (as part of the Inspired Version of the Bible). Also, most of the other discoveries of our solar system took place after Joseph Smith had recorded "and worlds without number have I created..."

In fact, according to the History and Chronology of the Solar System, we find the following information:

Prior to 1600

From the dawn of history until the beginning of the 17th century the known universe consisted of only 8 bodies:

Earth

Sun

Moon

Mercury

Venus

Mars

Jupiter

Saturn

plus the "fixed" stars. These are the ones that can be seen easily without any optical instruments. In Europe, the prevailing view was the Ptolemaic system with the Earth at the center and the other bodies revolving around it.

The 17th Century

In 1610 when Galileo first turned a telescope on the heavens and our knowledge of the universe exploded. By the end of the 17th century, 9 new bodies had been discovered and Copernicus's heliocentric theory was widely accepted. The total number of known bodies had more than doubled to 17:

Callisto 1610 Galileo

Europa 1610 Galileo

Ganymede 1610 Galileo

Io 1610 Galileo

Titan 1655 Huygens

Iapetus 1671 Cassini

Rhea 1672 Cassini

Dione 1684 Cassini

Tethys 1684 Cassini

The 18th Century

Only 5 new bodies (not counting comets) were discovered in the 18th century (all by William Herschel) bringing the total to 22:

Uranus 1781 Herschel

Oberon 1787 Herschel

Titania 1787 Herschel

Enceladus 1789 Herschel

Mimas 1789 Herschel

The 19th Century

The number of bodies in the solar system increased dramatically in the 19th century with the discovery of the asteroids (464 of which were known at by 1899) but only 9 more "major" bodies were discovered. The number of major bodies rose to 31 (almost double the 17th century total):

Neptune 1846 Adams, Le Verrier

Triton 1846 Lassell

Hyperion 1848 Bond

Ariel 1851 Lassell

Umbriel 1851 Lassell

Phobos 1877 Hall

Deimos 1877 Hall

Amalthea 1892 Barnard

Phoebe 1898 Pickering

The Early 20th Century

In the first three quarters of the 20th century 13 more major bodies (and thousands of comets and asteroids) were discovered bringing the total up to 43:

Himalia 1904 Perrine

Elara 1905 Perrine

Pasiphae 1908 Melotte

Sinope 1914 Nicholson

Pluto 1930 Tombaugh

Carme 1938 Nicholson

Lysithea 1938 Nicholson

Miranda 1948 Kuiper

Nereid 1949 Kuiper

Ananke 1951 Nicholson

Janus 1966 Dollfus

Leda 1974 Kowal

Charon 1978 Christy

The Space Age

27 more small moons were discovered by the two Voyager spacecraft:

Adrastea 1979 Jewitt

Metis 1979 Synnott

Thebe 1979 Synnott

Epimetheus 1980 Walker

Atlas 1980 Terrile

Calypso 1980 Pascu et. al.

Helene 1980 Laques et. al.

Pandora 1980 Collins et. al.

Prometheus 1980 Collins et. al.

Telesto 1980 Reitsema et. al.

Puck 1985 Voyager 2

Belinda 1986 Voyager 2

Bianca 1986 Voyager 2

Cordelia 1986 Voyager 2

Cressida 1986 Voyager 2

Desdemona 1986 Voyager 2

Juliet 1986 Voyager 2

Ophelia 1986 Voyager 2

Portia 1986 Voyager 2

Rosalind 1986 Voyager 2

Despina 1989 Voyager 2

Galatea 1989 Voyager 2

Larissa 1989 Voyager 2

Naiad 1989 Voyager 2

Proteus 1989 Voyager 2

Thalassa 1989 Voyager 2

Pan 1990 Showalter

The CCD Age

Dozens more small moons have been discovered in recent years with large ground based telescopes and CCD cameras. There are well over 100 now known; See JPL's site for more details.

Now, some may already know where this discussion is heading. However, I think it puts Joseph Smith in a very real and unique light that I myself have not even considered. Imagine you are in Joseph Smith's shoes. You make a statement. Critics from your life on claim you are a fraud and a phony.

They read this particular passage and say - well he has to be a fraud because he says that one of the things lost were statements where God revealed to Moses that there are worlds without number that God has created for his own purpose. And, that when a earth passes, another comes into existence, one eternal round. This is scientifically impossible.

Well it was not scientific impossible until 1991 when Astronomers discovered the first Extro-Solar System Planet around a Pulsar:

The first extrasolar planets to be discovered in 1991 were (to most astronomers' amazement) around a pulsar!

How many of use would venture to say "There will be discoveries of other Solar Systems out there beyond our own Solar System?" I know I would not say anything like this. In fact, the reality that a Extrosolar System planet was discovered in a Pulsar was an unthinkable plausibility in the Scientific community, but yet, here they are faced with the reality that defied their intellectual minds.

Yet, since this discovery, many more worlds were discovered. To-date, 131 plus planets in other solar systems have been discovered. According to a National Geographic Article, we read this:

When Mayor and another colleague, Didier Queloz, found the first planet around another sunlike star a decade ago, it was a stunning feat. By now, astronomers tracking the wobbles of nearby stars have detected more than 130 alien planets. It's a strange harvest: gas-shrouded giants, mostly hundreds of times more massive than Earth, some in weirdly elongated orbits and others so close to their star that they circle it in days or even hours. But Mu Arae's planet, and two others reported at about the same time by U.S. groups, are far smaller than their predecessors and could be made largely of rock. With their discovery, the planet hunt has taken a turn toward the familiar.

These new planets are still no place for life as we know it. The planet around Mu Arae weighs at least 14 times as much as Earth—"an Earth on steroids," says one astronomer. It is scorchingly close to its star, completing an orbit every 9.5 days. But astronomers are convinced they will soon be finding solar systems where small, temperate planets like Earth could form and where some kind of life might flourish. "We're really on the doorstep of seeing systems like ours," says Debra Fischer of San Francisco State University, a member of the U.S. team that has found more than half the planets.

It is no longer a question of our own Earth being unique in a vast and unknown universe, it is now a question of "when are we going to discover an Earth Like Planet"?

This is just another reason why Joseph Smith could not be considered a fraud. He truly was called of God.

What are your thoughts?

[bytebear]

Isn't it wonderful how as science progresses, the gospel is strengthened. I am reminded of how Smith taught that matter was eternal and could not be created or destroyed, but only changed from state to state. And now science confirms this fact. Other religions still criticize us for believing in the eternal nature of matter, but science embraces doctrine.

[Justice]

A wonderful example of why you cannot lean on science to determine your faith.

This may tie in nicely with my new thread about forever.

[Traveler]

........

This is just another reason why Joseph Smith could not be considered a fraud. He truly was called of God.

What are your thoughts?

I think you have stood by the ocean and as a wave came in you caught something in a cup. But I think you and I have not even begun to comprehend what Joseph has contributed and what a great loss to mankind his martyrdom was.

Thank you for your insights.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

A wonderful example of why you cannot lean on science to determine your faith.

This may tie in nicely with my new thread about forever.

Just an opinion; I believe it is possible to lean on truth, regardless of where it comes from, be it from science or religion or whatever - to determine one's faith.

As a side note -- if one has great difficulty deciphering truth with things in which we all can see and measure (like science) how can they be trusted to decipher truth with things which cannot be seen and measured.

The Traveler

[Justice]

Good question.

The problem with relying on truth from science is it can change. I meant to say rely, and not so much lean. It can mean the same thing, but I meant rely.

I remember when salt was very bad for you. Then after years and years, and new scientific study reversed that "truth" and stated some salt was even required, and not near as bad as once thought. After a few years, salt went back to being bad for you again. If you had based your entire diet, or relied, on what science taught you, you'd be pretty confused.

Your eyes can deceive you. You shouldn't rely on something just because you can see it. No matter how strong the evidence is, even if we think we have proven something, it can still change.

But, if you rely on God, the word of God, and His prophets it will not change and will not lead you astray.

[jadams_4040]

Worlds without number and the passing of one earth as another earth comes into existence. These two specific verses have taken on a different meaning.

Today, in Gospel Essentials class, we were talking about the current lesson - The Creation - and Moses 1:33 and 38 light a bug underneath me.

33: And worlds without number have I created; and I created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

38: And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

Why I mentioned this is because of one simple reality. First, verse 33, God revealed to Moses (as Joseph Smith had translated) that God created - through His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, many worlds that are without number.

Neptune had yet to be discovered (1846) when Joseph Smith translated Moses (as part of the Inspired Version of the Bible). Also, most of the other discoveries of our solar system took place after Joseph Smith had recorded "and worlds without number have I created..."

In fact, according to the History and Chronology of the Solar System, we find the following information:

Now, some may already know where this discussion is heading. However, I think it puts Joseph Smith in a very real and unique light that I myself have not even considered. Imagine you are in Joseph Smith's shoes. You make a statement. Critics from your life on claim you are a fraud and a phony.

They read this particular passage and say - well he has to be a fraud because he says that one of the things lost were statements where God revealed to Moses that there are worlds without number that God has created for his own purpose. And, that when a earth passes, another comes into existence, one eternal round. This is scientifically impossible.

Well it was not scientific impossible until 1991 when Astronomers discovered the first Extro-Solar System Planet around a Pulsar:

How many of use would venture to say "There will be discoveries of other Solar Systems out there beyond our own Solar System?" I know I would not say anything like this. In fact, the reality that a Extrosolar System planet was discovered in a Pulsar was an unthinkable plausibility in the Scientific community, but yet, here they are faced with the reality that defied their intellectual minds.

Yet, since this discovery, many more worlds were discovered. To-date, 131 plus planets in other solar systems have been discovered. According to a National Geographic Article, we read this:

It is no longer a question of our own Earth being unique in a vast and unknown universe, it is now a question of "when are we going to discover an Earth Like Planet"?

This is just another reason why Joseph Smith could not be considered a fraud. He truly was called of God.

What are your thoughts?

Well yer in very good company with Neil A Maxwell on this one!:)

[Traveler]

Good question.

The problem with relying on truth from science is it can change. I meant to say rely, and not so much lean. It can mean the same thing, but I meant rely.

I remember when salt was very bad for you. Then after years and years, and new scientific study reversed that "truth" and stated some salt was even required, and not near as bad as once thought. After a few years, salt went back to being bad for you again. If you had based your entire diet, or relied, on what science taught you, you'd be pretty confused.

Your eyes can deceive you. You shouldn't rely on something just because you can see it. No matter how strong the evidence is, even if we think we have proven something, it can still change.

But, if you rely on God, the word of God, and His prophets it will not change and will not lead you astray.

It seems to me that there have been changes in both science and religion over time. If we take for example the last 600 years of human history it appears to me that there has been a rather grand paradigm shift in thinking. It would appear to me that science has been more graceful in moving forward and adding “useful” knowledge of things in general to improve the quality of life than has religion during the same period of time.

However, it also seems to me that a strong link and balance between religious truth and scientific truth is more beneficial than excluding one over the other. I like what the ancient apostle Paul said, “Prove all things and hold fast to that which is true.”

The Traveler

[Justice]

I think Paul was referring to prayer and gaining the confirmation of the Holy Ghost, and not necessarily getting out your microscope.

Anyway, we could have a long discussion on whether or not science (and technology) has improved life. I'm sure in some ways it has, but it many other ways it's done the opposite.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable. I'm just trying to present an eternal perspective, and not one that is based in time (here and now).

[deseretgov]

I love astronomy! I would love it more to actually personally visit the planets out there.