pyxiwulf Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 I'm discussing the WOW with a friend, and I'm trying to find the doctrinal support about the change from allowing member-made alcohol " And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make." D&C: 89:6, to no alcohol at all. I remember learning about it in one of my classes one day recently, but I can't remember the details and my journal from that time has gone missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisyn Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 (edited) I was going to list all the different threads on this topic but my computer told me it was too much work If you look at the top of this page you will see a list of options like User CP, FAQ, etc. One of the buttons says 'search'. Put in WoW and you'll find a virtual cornucopia of opinions, links, and various tidbits of knowledge you can use to impress your friend. Enjoy! Edited January 23, 2010 by talisyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deseretgov Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Hmmm. I never knew there was such a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 I don'y know what the saints drank, but i don't think the change was from, no booze except wine to no booze at all. The change was from Greetings,/ not commandment to Commandment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyxiwulf Posted January 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 I don'y know what the saints drank, but i don't think the change was from, no booze except wine to no booze at all.The change was from Greetings,/ not commandment to CommandmentI'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. As it was taught in class, and from some history I read from BYU, is that originally wine from grapes grown by brethren was okay and was used during sacrament. Around the same time that it switched to water is when it became a requirement for temple worthiness. But I'm curious what the GAs said about the change from certain kinds, to no kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. As it was taught in class, and from some history I read from BYU, is that originally wine from grapes grown by brethren was okay and was used during sacrament. Around the same time that it switched to water is when it became a requirement for temple worthiness. But I'm curious what the GAs said about the change from certain kinds, to no kind.I don't know about the sacrament. I was saying the wow went from non enforced e.g. you could drink, smoke, have tea etc. (sometimes it was , David Whitmer was charged with violation in 1838, but other who broke it were not ) To enforced, you couldn't use these things and go to the Temple.I don't believe there was a time when it was enforced as written e.g. you could drink wine but not smoke and and get a temple recommend.As far as the sacrament is concerned i don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Sacrament used wine in the early days of the Church. In the late 1800's it gradually changed to water until around 1912, after WOW became a commandment, it became just water. Here is the scripture that made this change: D&C 27:2-4 2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins. 3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies; 4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth. Because LDS members were commanded to avoid the appearance of evil in the matter of purchasing wine, water was used in sacrament meetings so that an LDS member will not have to purchase wine for any reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 But surely those scriptures are till in the realms of "you can drink wine so long as you make it yourself" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 But surely those scriptures are till in the realms of "you can drink wine so long as you make it yourself"You mean, you can drink wine IN SACRAMENT as long as you make it yourself? The LDS church used to own vineyards for this particular reason. But, that got abolished too. Appearance of evil and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 But that scripture doesn't answer the question of when it changed so that it had to be water.We even have wine mentioned in a hymn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 But that scripture doesn't answer the question of when it changed so that it had to be water.We even have wine mentioned in a hymn.The scripture I posted is when it changed - to anything except wine or tea or blood or any of those against the WOW. Water is just the preferred material because it is, currently, free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 The scripture I posted is when it changed - to anything except wine or tea or blood or any of those against the WOW. Water is just the preferred material because it is, currently, free.No i think you were right with the "appearance of evil thing". I imagine it would be hard to teach alcohol is not for the body while , giving alcohol to the members every Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 The scripture I posted is when it changed - to anything except wine or tea or blood or any of those against the WOW. Water is just the preferred material because it is, currently, free.But D&C 27:3 simply says don't purchase the wine from your enemies and verse 4 says 'you shall partake of none except it is made new among you' so although verse 2 says 'it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament' it does not say anywhere that wine is forbidden. The scripture actually says it's OK so long as you've made it yourself and not bought it from your enemies. It doesn't answer the query of when wine was replaced by water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyxiwulf Posted January 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 I'm curious about not just replacing the wine by water (I know when), but when it was no longer okay to drink wine made by oneself, and why that changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzy Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 I'm not really sure when that all happened. I imagine that the discontinuation of using wine for sacrament occurred when the Word of Wisdom became a commandment rather than simply really good advice. I agree with Hordak on the point that it would be somewhat hypocritical to do otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hordak Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 I'm not really sure when that all happened. I imagine that the discontinuation of using wine for sacrament occurred when the Word of Wisdom became a commandment rather than simply really good advice. I agree with Hordak on the point that it would be somewhat hypocritical to do otherwise.I don't think it would be hypocritical, Just like Catholics who tell their kids not to drink but give them communion. but i do think some could find it hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzy Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 I don't think it would be hypocritical, Just like Catholics who tell their kids not to drink but give them communion. but i do think some could find it hypocritical.Gotcha. Sorry about misunderstanding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 I'm not really sure when that all happened. I imagine that the discontinuation of using wine for sacrament occurred when the Word of Wisdom became a commandment rather than simply really good advice. I agree with Hordak on the point that it would be somewhat hypocritical to do otherwise.But the curious thing is that the Word of Wisdom states:That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.(D&C 89:5,6)Still talking about making your own wine there for use in Sacrament - no menton of any water. So, personally I am still curious about when it became water that was used instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzy Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 That is indeed interesting. I don't really know how to explain it. I know how I used to explain it, but I don't know if it is true. I have heard and used to say that at one point someone began poisoning the wine. And so we switched to water. But I am not really sure if that is true. Personally I leave it at this is what we do. But I do understand the curiosity surrounding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanhin Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Then there is "mild drinks":Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain. (Doctrine and Covenants 89)Beer!Vanhin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyxiwulf Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Then there is "mild drinks":Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain. (Doctrine and Covenants 89)Beer!Vanhinoh just go and complicate the question will you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Well barley for mild drinks is an easy one for me. We have a 'hot drink' coffee substitute made from roasted barley which a lot of church members here drink ----- oh but hang on a minute ---- the Word of Wisdom says we shouldn't drink 'hot drinks'! This could get really complicated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Okay, around the late 1800's when WOW was made manifest and the D&C verse I posted came about, the sacrament started to change gradually to water. The reason being, that the D&C verse made it clear that you DON'T HAVE TO use wine for sacrament. General Authorities started to instruct to use water instead of wine to eliminate the "appearance of evil" until in 1912, all sacrament meetings exclusively use water.Nowhere in the scriptures does it say you HAVE TO USE water. And nowhere in the scriptures does it say you CANNOT use wine (from the vine, made yourself, etc.). Water became the standard because it is free and it eliminates the "appearance of evil". Discussions like we are having now can be easily addressed - "So, you are commanded not to drink wine, yet your sacrament uses wine..." etc.Make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowTheWhisp Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Thank you. That clears my confusion. 1912 then is the answer to the 'when'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipplecutBuddha Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Also, the answer for the matter of the 'poisioning'...the D&C reference that states 'you should buy no more of your enemies". Joseph was instructed to use wine only made by members, if that's what was available, but more as a reminder that it really doesn't matter what liquid we use, or for that matter what we use for the other half of the sacrament. If all we have is skittles and capri sun drinks....we can have a proper sacrament, if we do it in the proper spirit. It's what the emblems represent, not what they themselves are, that is essential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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