book of Helaman question

[chiefpriest]

are we to believe that in Helaman Ch. 14 v. 21 it is talking about every mass of land on the whole earth was together but after the death of Christ is when the continents broke apart?

[john doe]

Do you really think that continental drift is only 2,000 years old?

[Drac]

No, this is just referring to what happened in the Americas at the death of Jesus which there is an account of in 3 Nephi Chapter 8.

[chiefpriest]

so are you saying it couldnt have happened? God couldnt have made the continents as far apart as they are now? I would double check that.

[Drac]

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm just speaking of the timeline of the scriptures. The land was divided long before Jesus was crucified and long before the prophecy in that chapter of Helaman. The book of Mormon begins with Lehi leaving Jerusalem and sailing across the ocean. Obviously the seperation of land had already occured at that time, roughly 600 B.C.

[mrmarklin]

Check this out:

Four generations after Noah, Genesis 10:25 records the birth of Peleg (meaning division) ‘for in his days was the earth divided’.

[rameumptom]

Given that both Lehi and the Jaredites had to cross the ocean to arrive in the Americas - a promised land that was across the ocean so that they would be apart - shows that the Nephites understood that the continents were divided prior to the Jaredites (and I'm thinking millions of years).

Given that the Nephites were in a limited area here in the Americas (travel between the north and south of Nephite territory was in days) probably only 250 square miles for the Nephites, we should expect that the destructions at Jesus' death probably only affected a few hundred square miles at most.

And no, Jesus' death did not cause the Rockies and Andes to rise up from the ground. They were here long before the Nephites showed up.

[chiefpriest]

the earth in its temporal existence, or as we know it, will in fact only exist seven thousand years. The notion that the Jaredites lived millions of years ago is false, you cannot believe in modern scripture and still believe this. Yes the matter or intelligence that makes up the earth has always existed and will always exist since matter cannot be created or destroyed.

The fact the Lehi and his family sailed to get to the Americas does not deny the fact that the land masses were still together at this time.

Just read D&C 77:6.

[hordak]

the earth in its temporal existence, or as we know it, will in fact only exist seven thousand years. The notion that the Jaredites lived millions of years ago is false, you cannot believe in modern scripture and still believe this. Yes the matter or intelligence that makes up the earth has always existed and will always exist since matter cannot be created or destroyed.

The fact the Lehi and his family sailed to get to the Americas does not deny the fact that the land masses were still together at this time.

Just read D&C 77:6.

I'm no geologist by any means but did you see the death and destruction caused by a "little shaking" in Haiti ?

I would guess the earthquakes and volcanic activity require to separate the continents would have killed most if not all the population. There would be historical records from every people in existence at the time of the death.

Not to mention the land that we call Israel was no where near the Romans when the land masses were together in one continent.

[john doe]

Nobody here said the Jaredites lived millions of years ago. What was said was that the land mass separation happened millions of years ago.

[Drac]

the earth in its temporal existence, or as we know it, will in fact only exist seven thousand years. The notion that the Jaredites lived millions of years ago is false, you cannot believe in modern scripture and still believe this. Yes the matter or intelligence that makes up the earth has always existed and will always exist since matter cannot be created or destroyed.

The fact the Lehi and his family sailed to get to the Americas does not deny the fact that the land masses were still together at this time.

Just read D&C 77:6.

D&C 77:6 doesn't shed any light on the earth being one land mass. As was mentioned the Old Testament speaks of the lands being divided during the days of Peleg which was long before Lehi, and Lehi was many years before Helaman. The land masses were most certainly not together at the time of Lehi.

[rameumptom]

I was referring to the land masses changing millions of years ago. The Jaredites lived approximately 2000-2500 BC to 250 BC.

While the Bible states that the earth was divided in the days of Peleg, that does not necessarily mean the entire land masses. In fact, it more than likely is about the division into kingdoms, or divided in heaven into kingdoms that the sons of El were made responsible for (with Jehovah getting Israel).

Yes, I know Joseph Smith once taught that the earth was literally divided in Peleg's day, but we have to separate out Joseph's revelations from Joseph's opinions. That teaching is found once, and only once. And it did not find its way into the canon. The Church's official stance is that if there is an outlier statement, it is something to consider, but is not considered official doctrine. As it is, how many of today's apostles do you think believe it, versus that the earth was physically divided millions of years ago. I'm wagering that the vast majority agree with science on the literal division, and view Peleg's division as some other form of division (political, for instance).

[Drac]

I'm wagering that the vast majority agree with science on the literal division, and view Peleg's division as some other form of division (political, for instance).

Agreed. Does the verse about Peleg necessarily mean the continents were divided at that time? I don't think so, but if it does, it was a long time before Lehi which was a long time before Helaman. And with the scientific views of when the continents were divided, that was a looooooooooooooooooong time before the death of Jesus.

The verses in Helaman are not referring to the continents dividing in any way.

[chiefpriest]

so what do yall make of this...this is from the book, Answers To Gospel Questions by Joseph Fielding Smith and i quote

"...and a few years before the crucifixion, the Prophet Samuel aslo predicted the three days of darkness and that there should be thunderings and lightnings and GREAT EARTHQUAKES so that the WHOLE FACE of the EARTH should be CHANGED and BROKEN UP for it was in a SOLID CONDITION at that time"

So Joseph Fielding Smith believed that the land on the earth was together, up until the death of Christ, why shouldnt we?

[Blackmarch]

are we to believe that in Helaman Ch. 14 v. 21 it is talking about every mass of land on the whole earth was together but after the death of Christ is when the continents broke apart?

No he's not talking about every land mass. As we see later in the book that he's prophysing about the lands that the nephites inhabit.

[rameumptom]

Joseph Fielding Smith wrote that book decades ago. Science was not as advanced as it is today, and many took a literal view of the Bible writings back then. His views were based upon his opinions and understanding of the day, and not on Church revelation.

You'll note that there are have many books written since then by General Authorities, and most of the more recent ones are more nuanced on such things. Today they don't speculate as much (which JFS and his son-in-law Bruce R. McConkie were famous for), but focus on the doctrine more.

You'll note that in the Church's updated Gospel Principles manual, they took out the quotes from Mormon Doctrine, and replaced it with selected quotes from the Teachings from the Presidents PH/RS manual series. I would note that while dead prophets are quoted in the books, their extensive writings were carefully combed through to ensure only current teachings are emphasized (you don't get to read about Adam-God in Brigham Young's manual, for instance).

[mrmarklin]

There is secular evidence of a much more recent land division. Have you forgotten the Atlantis legend? That is certainly relatively recent, and not millions of years ago. Most of these "histories" are based on facts that while often distorted with the passage of time, are real events.

[Drac]

Cool video about what most likely happened at the destuctrions described in 3 Nephi.

All the videos on that channel are very interesting.