Trinity

[prisonchaplain]

It doesn't apply to LDS because even if we become "gods" we become one with God, and there is still only one God. If instead of defining God as a being , but as a state of being, all persons who are in that state are God.

Other LDS have told me that they will always worship Heavenly Father. However, if you become God, why would you worship God?

[bytebear]

Other LDS have told me that they will always worship Heavenly Father. However, if you become God, why would you worship God?

When you grew up and became a man, did you revere and love your earthly father any less?

[prisonchaplain]

When you grew up and became a man, did you revere and love your earthly father any less?

Transforming from child to adult is a bit different from transfering from human to God. When I became a father, I did indeed grow in my respect for my father. At the same time, I did a few things differently. Father went from absolute wisdom and knowledge, to great teacher, to life coach, to fellow traveler with a few years on me. I love him the same, but I did lose my sense of awe and mystery at the great power and knowledge of dad-the-adult.

My guess is that the exaltation of heaven will only heighten our adoration of God. We'll see him more clearly, and understand him better.

[bytebear]

Transforming from child to adult is a bit different from transfering from human to God. When I became a father, I did indeed grow in my respect for my father. At the same time, I did a few things differently. Father went from absolute wisdom and knowledge, to great teacher, to life coach, to fellow traveler with a few years on me. I love him the same, but I did lose my sense of awe and mystery at the great power and knowledge of dad-the-adult.

My guess is that the exaltation of heaven will only heighten our adoration of God. We'll see him more clearly, and understand him better.

Transforming from human to god is no different in LDS theology. We are literally the offspring of God and literally the children of God. We are of the same species and race as God. As we progress, I suppose we also lose a little sense of awe. Do we marvel at the power of fire as our ancestors did? Do we marvel at the eclipse, or the ability to talk into a tiny box and hear perfectly clear the voice of a person thousands of miles away? Or do we simply understand them better? With added knowledge comes better understanding and perhaps the mystery is lost, but when we are exhaulted we will have all knowledge. We will literally be given all that Christ has as we sit with him on the throne of God.

[prisonchaplain]

Transforming from human to god is no different in LDS theology. We are literally the offspring of God and literally the children of God. We are of the same species and race as God. As we progress, I suppose we also lose a little sense of awe.

More than any discussion of God as one essence vs. one purpose, the bolded part of your post dilineates the chasm between LDS theology and that of Trinitarians. We believe God alone is and will ever be what He is.

[Jason_J]

I a curious, where is the word ""ousia" used. Do you have scriptures to point to, or is it strictly post biblical writings that use the term?

I believe that it is a extra-biblical term, as far as I know. Trinitarians would say that the concept is scriptural (I'm not saying that it is), however the word may not actually be there. The issue of "ousia" was extremely important at the Council of Nicaea, where the issue of whether Jesus (God the Son) was of a similar or same nature as the Father. It was decided by the council that Jesus was of the same nature as the Father, or "homoousios" ("same essence/being" in Greek). The Arians believed that Jesus was of a similar nature as the Father.

[bytebear]

More than any discussion of God as one essence vs. one purpose, the bolded part of your post dilineates the chasm between LDS theology and that of Trinitarians. We believe God alone is and will ever be what He is.

I believe that it is a extra-biblical term, as far as I know. Trinitarians would say that the concept is scriptural (I'm not saying that it is), however the word may not actually be there. The issue of "ousia" was extremely important at the Council of Nicaea, where the issue of whether Jesus (God the Son) was of a similar or same nature as the Father. It was decided by the council that Jesus was of the same nature as the Father, or "homoousios" ("same essence/being" in Greek). The Arians believed that Jesus was of a similar nature as the Father.

What's interesting is that LDS would say that not only are Jesus and the Father of thes same nature, but that all of us can also become that same nature through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I knew that PC would disagree, and I understand the heresy of the LDS position, but I simply cannot read the scriptures and believe anything other that that I am a child of God. And when I read the Bible and it talks of only one God, I simply undstand that to mean there is only one way through salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ, and no matter what my fate may be, I will never do what He did. So in that sense, I agree we will never be what He is.

[prisonchaplain]

Here's an article on the use of hypostasis, ousia in New Testament, and the LXX (Greek version of OT, used in Jesus' day). The Use of the Term Hypostasis (No. 230)

[Guest]

More than any discussion of God as one essence vs. one purpose, the bolded part of your post dilineates the chasm between LDS theology and that of Trinitarians. We believe God alone is and will ever be what He is.

PC, yes, yes! That is exactly the ONLY difference - in my opinion.

Jason, this is what I was getting at - the missing element in the Catholic teachings of the nature of God. The one that I just cannot grasp with the Trinitarian concept. Because, growing up Trinitarian then seeing this other way of explaining the Trinity - it all suddenly makes absolute perfect sense to me! All those billigerent questions I have hammered the nuns with in frustration all through my pleated skirt and black shoes days - getting more irritated every time they throw me the "it's a mystery" answer - I just cannot accept it no matter how hard I try to become the best Catholic ever. And trust me, I have tried my very best.

Because, in the end, I just cannot understand why it has to be a mystery! In the Catholic faith - it remains a mystery. There is never a promise of eventually "getting it". So, I always have this feeling that I'm striving and striving to be more like God, yet I don't know what that's supposed to be!

Then LDS theology comes along - and voila! It is the same - call it Trinity (Catholicism), call it Godhead - people, it's the same. Really. Just like what Jason said exactly - it is all semantics!

But the LDS difference is, unlike Catholicism, it is not intended to be a mystery! We are intended to learn it line by line, precept upon precept until the mystery is unravelled within ourselves. Because, all the answers are within us - because we are made in the same pattern that God is. "In his image" has more meaning - it makes perfect sense. And our earthly existence, our progression, makes more sense. FAMILIES make more sense. It is but part of the pattern.

And with all that, the essential meaning of life makes more sense - seen through the LDS view of the Godhead - that difference gives you the Plan of Salvation - which is what this whole thing is all about. This is the important FIRST step. Then I can move on to making my covenants and following the teachings of the scriptures, because I can finally understand "the plan". It is not blind faith to me anymore.

I told you, PC... you are but one step away from getting baptized LDS. Just one measly step.

Edited February 8, 2010 by anatess

[Guest]

The spirit of man is what connects him to the Spirit of God. It is how the Holy Spirit speaks to, testifies to and sanctifies man.

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. (Job 32:8)

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers...Romans 1:9)

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...(Romans 8:16)

M.

Exactly - so, your spirit is not distinct and separate from your intelligence - therefore, your spirit is part of your soul.

Therefore, it makes sense when you see wikipedia say that soul is synonymous to spirit.

[Maureen]

Exactly - so, your spirit is not distinct and separate from your intelligence - therefore, your spirit is part of your soul.

Therefore, it makes sense when you see wikipedia say that soul is synonymous to spirit.

Man's spirit is different from man's soul. Man's ability to imagine, reason, think, express emotions comes from his soul. Man's spirit receives impressions through the soul, and it is through our spirit that we can connect with God, that we are regenerated. Man's capacity to have faith, hope, to pray and worship comes through his spirit.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

Anatess, the appeal of understanding God because I become Him can be exciting or frightening. If it's true, then it's destiny, and the traditional understanding of Creator-Created has been sorely misconstrued throughout human history. On the other hand, if it's not true--if the revelations Joseph Smith said he received did not come to him from God--then the traditional understanding of most religions would consider a theology that exalts humanity to Godhood as a drastic departure from orthodoxy.

[Faded]

I've long said, both here and on other forums, that the traditional Trinity and the LDS Godhead are more similar than many on either side want to say, if we understand the terminology being used. It seems as if you have come to the same conclusion.

One terminology issue: Trinitarians do not use the word "separate" to describe the Persons. They use "distinct". Now, I personally am a little amused by this, because one of the definitions of 'distinct' is separate. However, it is important to realize this as another issue in Trinitarian language. Trinitarians will say that the three Persons are "inseparable". This usually creates another issue similar to that of "being". If they are distinct, how can they be inseparable? Are they attached to each other? No. Like the issue of being three and one (where they are three in a totally different way than they are one), the Persons are distinct in a different way than they are inseparable. Basically, you cannot have one Person without the others. You cannot have the Son without the Father, you cannot have the Holy Spirit without the Father and the Son, and you cannot be a Father without having the Son. In that way, they are inseparable.

No "lengthy explanation" required.

Our faith would wholeheartedly agree with the teaching that they are all indispensable and essential, and that you don't have one without the other two. Essentially, if you're communicating with one you're communicating with all three. Inspiration from the Holy Spirit is the same thing as inspiration from God the Father and Jesus Christ. Forgiveness from sins via the Atonement of Jesus Christ means you are forgiven and cleansed in the eyes of all three in every case.

Somehow or another, I'm missing something because at this level of understanding the Trinity, I see no problem with it and I see no reason that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost cannot be the same species as mankind. That makes all the scriptures calling us God's children and saying that we are made in his image begin to make a lot of sense. The statement "when we meet we shall be like Him for we shall see face to face" goes from impossible to possible.

But somehow or another, the Trinitarian understanding of things concluded that, by God's Triune nature, God cannot be the same species as mankind. It is that conclusion -- that God is not the same species as humankind -- that makes the LDS understanding of exaltation and eternal life an impossibility. So what did I miss?

Edited February 8, 2010 by Faded

[Jason_J]

Our faith would wholeheartedly agree with the teaching that they are all indispensable and essential, and that you don't have one without the other two. Essentially, if you're communicating with one you're communicating with all three. Inspiration from the Holy Spirit is the same thing as inspiration from God the Father and Jesus Christ. Forgiveness from sins via the Atonement of Jesus Christ means you are forgiven and cleansed in the eyes of all three in every case.

Somehow or another, I'm missing something because at this level of understanding the Trinity, I see no problem with it and I see no reason that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost cannot be the same species as mankind. That makes all the scriptures calling us God's children and saying that we are made in his image begin to make a lot of sense. But somehow or another, the Trinitarian understanding of things concluded that, by God's Triune nature, God cannot be the same species as mankind. It is that conclusion -- that God is not the same species as humankind -- that makes the LDS understanding of exaltation and eternal life an impossibility. So what did I miss?

Well there are a number of differences between the Trinitarian understanding and the Godhead understanding, here are a few:

-Trinitarians do not believe in a corporeal Father

-Trinitarians do not believe that God the Son is literally the first-born of the Father

-Trinitarians do not believe that anyone is or ever will become/have the essence of God

-Peripheral: Trinitarians do not believe that the Father is married to a Heavenly Mother

-Trinitarianism is surrounded by various views from Greek philosophy (hence the importance of words such as hypostasis, hypostatic union, ousia/homoousios, etc)

[Vanhin]

To Latter-day Saints, the members of the Godhead are in perfect harmony with the will of God the Father, who is Himself, the God of gods (Ps. 136:2). Unity, in the Godhead, is achieved by having the will of the Son and the Holy Ghost, swallowed up in the will of the Father (Mosiah 15:7, 3 Nephi 28:11). Unity with God, for the Saints, is achieved in precisely the same manner. The following is pure LDS doctrine.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:20-24)

God is our Father, and it is both his will and within his power, through the merits of his Christ, to make us like He is and one with Him, like the Son is. We can all become "begotten" sons and daughters unto Him, if we will allow our wills to be swallowed up in the will of the Father (D&C 76:24). God has done everything for us, except he does not infringe upon our own freedom to choose for ourselves. So, the power to save belongs to God, and the power to give to him the only thing that we truly own - our will - belongs to us.

Then we will truly know God and his Christ, because we will be like them, and that is Eternal Life (John 17:3).

Regards,

Vanhin

[Guest]

Man's spirit is different from man's soul. Man's ability to imagine, reason, think, express emotions comes from his soul. Man's spirit receives impressions through the soul, and it is through our spirit that we can connect with God, that we are regenerated. Man's capacity to have faith, hope, to pray and worship comes through his spirit.

M.

In LDS theology your ability to imagine, reason, think, express emotions is part of your spirit. The totality of your person which includes your spirit and your body is your soul.

Let's just leave this at that because we are digressing too far from the thread. It will take us too far out to left field if we start to talk about the perfecting function of the Atonement of Christ only applying to our spirits (in born-again teachings) and not our souls (which is why it is important for born again Christians to take away spirit from the soul).

The point of the exercise was that the triune of man's spirit, body, and soul is not analogous to the Trinity because - in man, that is just parts of one person, and not the three persons that the Trinity represent. This holds true for any Christian sect including Catholicism and LDS.

[Faded]

Well there are a number of differences between the Trinitarian understanding and the Godhead understanding, here are a few:

-Trinitarians do not believe in a corporeal Father

-Trinitarians do not believe that God the Son is literally the first-born of the Father

-Trinitarians do not believe that anyone is or ever will become/have the essence of God

-Peripheral: Trinitarians do not believe that the Father is married to a Heavenly Mother

-Trinitarianism is surrounded by various views from Greek philosophy (hence the importance of words such as hypostasis, hypostatic union, ousia/homoousios, etc)

Now I was under the impression that the Trinitarian view held that God the Father has a body, that the Son has a body, and that the Holy Spirit does not. Then again, I'd heard both: That he has corporeal form from some and that he doesn't from others. I believe someone said very recently on this forum that the Trinity affirms that God the Father has a body just as the Son does. So that's a point to clarify obviously.

Other than that, it seems like is that the original core concepts are almost identical and that Nicean Christians just came to different doctrinal conclusions than Latter Day Saints.

The ancient teaching that we could potentially become like God, the existence of a "mother in heaven" and several other LDS teachings certainly did find their way into Gnostic thinking. The Gnostics are an interesting group. Before the orders of Benedictine and Augustinian Priests existed, the Gnostics seem to have been the earliest scholars in Christianity. Many of their ideas were rejected and branded as unspeakable heresy. Many of their ideas found their way into Catholic orthodoxy. One wonders if these particular teachings were thrown out when they shouldn't have been. There is plenty of ridiculous nonsense that some of the Gnostic sects came up with of course. The key is to realize that they were not a single unified group, but a broad array of groups with vastly different teachings. Essentially, they were the early Church's "think tank" for lack of a better word. They do seem to have had knowledge of these "heretical" teachings and one must ask the question, "Where did they get that idea from?." What's more interesting is that Joseph Smith would certainly not have had access to their material.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Faded

[Guest]

Anatess, the appeal of understanding God because I become Him can be exciting or frightening. If it's true, then it's destiny, and the traditional understanding of Creator-Created has been sorely misconstrued throughout human history. On the other hand, if it's not true--if the revelations Joseph Smith said he received did not come to him from God--then the traditional understanding of most religions would consider a theology that exalts humanity to Godhood as a drastic departure from orthodoxy.

I think you misunderstood me, PC. The appeal of understanding God is not because I become Him. The understanding stems from the pattern of life. The comfort it gives you to know that God knows who I am because I am like Him and that I can know Him too because He is like me.

Okay, I'm going to continue the trend of poor analogies here... it's like me saying I know who my dog is (let's take away the part that I didn't create my dog to simplify things - let's just pretend I created my dog). I love my dog and my dog worships the ground I walk on. And I can claim to know everything about my dog. But, there is that big divide between me and my dog because, I am woman and he is dog. And because of the inferiority of dog brain, he will never achieve a level of understanding of man.

LDS believe in eternal progression. That God has not stopped progressing just because he has achieved the level of Godhood. He will always be God - our God - in any stage of our eternal lives. Because life - even God's - is not standing still. There is no end to His works nor to His words. God's glory and power is enhanced as His children progresses in glory.

This is different than Catholic theology wherein, there's really nothing beyond heaven. It seems like after heaven, everything stays the same in endless immortal bliss (or pain, if you happen to end up in hell). Another reason why I departed from that understanding - because, I cannot see how 100 years of mortality, or even just 1 day for those so unlucky, is so burdened as to dictate the endless state of man.

And yes, it is a drastic departure. But, it is substantiated by the Bible. Vahnin is so cool as to put the verses from John 17 up there.

But, hey, that's why we shouldn't force our beliefs on people. Because, I can claim my church is true - but the whole world can't all agree on it until the day of judgement. Because, the plan is free choice - and my choices and my appeal to God in prayer is solely for me. Your answer could be different.

But even so, we can still magnify and celebrate our similarities because there is a LOT of them. Trinity versus Godhead become fraternal twins if we celebrate the similarities instead of the minor differences. And we can truly be brothers and sisters.

Edited February 8, 2010 by anatess

[Maureen]

...Let's just leave this at that because we are digressing too far from the thread. It will take us too far out to left field if we start to talk about the perfecting function of the Atonement of Christ only applying to our spirits (in born-again teachings) and not our souls (which is why it is important for born again Christians to take away spirit from the soul).

The point of the exercise was that the triune of man's spirit, body, and soul is not analogous to the Trinity because - in man, that is just parts of one person, and not the three persons that the Trinity represent. This holds true for any Christian sect including Catholicism and LDS.

I would just like to say that Christ's atonement does not just apply to our spirits because the spirit is a part of the person. I am not just body or soul or spirit, I am all three. I am one person that is made up of a body, soul and spirit. When my spirit has been regenerated by the HS, I have been regenerated.

The point I wanted to make in saying that man is body, soul and spirit is that this description of man is very similar to the description of God, this is one way to see how we were created in God's image by this similarity of being 3 in 1. God has always existed as a Trinity, as Father, Son and HS. So when scripture says "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." that image and likeness was this 3 in 1.

That was my point.

M.

[Maureen]

...I believe someone said very recently on this forum that the Trinity affirms that God the Father has a body just as the Son does. So that's a point to clarify obviously...

I can't imagine a Trinitarian saying that he believed God the Father is corporeal. It was probably a misunderstanding or a misread.

M.

[Faded]

I can't imagine a Trinitarian saying that he believed God the Father is corporeal. It was probably a misunderstanding or a misread.

M.

It's a good point to clarify if I'm ever going to have any hope of understanding the Trinity.

Okay, so God the Father has no body according to Trinitarians. If there are no votes to the contrary ...? I do want to have the clearest understanding possible of course.

[Guest]

The point I wanted to make in saying that man is body, soul and spirit is that this description of man is very similar to the description of God, this is one way to see how we were created in God's image by this similarity of being 3 in 1. God has always existed as a Trinity, as Father, Son and HS. So when scripture says "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." that image and likeness was this 3 in 1.

That was my point.

M.

It is really not in any way close to similar, Maureen, except for the number 3 and the number 1. Distinct persons... don't forget that part.

[Maureen]

It is really not in any way close to similar, Maureen, except for the number 3 and the number 1. Distinct persons... don't forget that part.

My body is distinct from my soul and spirit, my soul is distinct from my body and spirit and my spirit is distinct from my body and soul. All 3 make one person. It is a similarity of likeness.

M.

[Guest]

My body is distinct from my soul and spirit, my soul is distinct from my body and spirit and my spirit is distinct from my body and soul. All 3 make one person. It is a similarity of likeness.

M.

But there are 3 persons in the Godhead, not one.

[Maureen]

anatess, you really don't see the similarity in the 3 (body, soul, spirit - Father, Son, HS) and man and God respectively? If you don't, then I can't explain it any further.

M.