Heavenly Mother and Scripture

[Justice]

All he's doing is forcing his belief into the text. We all do it.

But, I was about to mention what you already mentioned, bytebear, that babies do not sin immediately upon birth. They are born into a world where they will eventually choose to sin. God, in His wisdom, knows this. You have to look at reality, the way things really are, and then use that to understand what's being said. David was NOT saying he sinned right from the womb, but that he chose to be sinful at a young age.

Obviously David did not remember his birth and know how he felt... sinful or otherwise. He was looking at his life as a whole and felt guilty for his choices.

John, if David sinned because of a nature he could not overcome, why would he feel guilty for doing what he had to do? I feel guilty because I choose to sin, and I know I didn't have to. That's what remorse is all about. That's what repentance is all about. We promise to make wiser choices. If I believed I had to sin, or that I don't have a choice, then I wouldn't feel guilty about it.

If we are forced to sin by our nature, how can we feel remorse or repent?

Again, I know you don't get it yet, but your misinterpretation of the Bible is filling your head with false beliefs.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

We do not believe the Bible is translated perfectly, nor do we believe it is complete. Therefore, we use modern scripture, along with the words of modern prophets, to understand the Bible as it was written, not as it was translated.

Logic and common sense are all you need to get you past this one. If sin nature were forced on us, no matter what we did, then we would not be accountable for what we do, and therefore, we could not sin. Sin requires a choice. The fact David recognizes himself as sinful means he recognizes he chose to sin, otherwise there would be no guilt or remorse on his part. Plain and simple, that's the truth.

You still haven't explained how one can be forced to sin by a "sin nature" we can not override by choice, yet be responsible for what we do.

Please explain if sin is not a conscience choice we make how can we be held accountable? It's like being held accountable for a sin because we were born with blue eyes or blonde hair. It really makes no sense to me, so you're going to have to explain it to me.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Justice

[JohnOF123]

Here is where I agree and disagree. This may illustrate some of my viewpoints.

The only difference, is you believe we are sinful upon creation, but LDS believe we are innocent.

Correct. I believe that we are born sinners, inherited by our earthly father, and ultimately from Adam. Jesus's father was God whereas our fathers are fallen men.

if we were all created in the Garden before the fall, we would remain innocent, but could not progress. So the fall was necessary so we could progress.

Yea, we could start a whole new thread. Many threads, lol. I disagree in that I believe we are redeemed (completely). Where you say we can progress to exultation, I would say we progress in Christian maturity (Holiness) after we are saved unto God's exultation. My viewpoint is based on that we believe that we are saved first, then "progress" in Holiness since we have become a new creature. I think your viewpoint might be that you need to progress in order to strive to become that new creature. This is where we say, a cow moos, but you cannot moo to become a cow. We believe we are born again while still a wretched sinner, which gives us spiritual life (dead before) and good works naturally come out of our new nature.

Hope that made sense. And keep in mind that we believe there are many unsaved people in our Churches whom don't know it. Much more unsaved than saved.

Christ's atonement covers their sins.

I don't believe a child is "saved" from baptism or anything in of themselves. This could be another thread too. I believe that the "new birth" happens to people and they become a child of God. With some people it happens as a youngster, and others it might not happen until they are 60. Now on the other hand, if a young child were to die, perhaps they would be unaccountable and enter Heaven, or perhaps God would know what their heart would have chose, and base it on that. But I do not believe people can enter the Kingdom of God until they are born again, supernaturally.

[MeIRL]

I believe that we are born sinners, inherited by our earthly father, and ultimately from Adam.

So the infant who dies is condemned to eternal hell.

Nice.

[JohnOF123]

If we are forced to sin by our nature, how can we feel remorse or repent?

You still haven't explained how one can be forced to sin by a "sin nature" we can not override by choice, yet be responsible for what we do.

Good question Justice. We feel remorse when we see and compare how God is, what His righteousness demands and who we are, wicked and sinful. We want to be Holy for Him and like Him, and it breaks our hearts that we are sinners by nature. We can repent of our sins and have remorse. Your sinful nature does not force you to sin, but it however is only natural for you to choose sin. God gave us free will, a conscience, and His Word. His laws are written on our hearts.

And the second part of your question I believe applies to Mormonism as well. You are sinful, and are responsible for your actions. You aren't forced to sin, but you do. Perhaps what you mean to ask is whether that's fair or not that we have a fallen nature. But who are we the clay to tell the potter what's not fair.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

We do not believe the Bible is translated perfectly, nor do we believe it is complete. Therefore, we use modern scripture, along with the words of modern prophets, to understand the Bible as it was written, not as it was translated.

This might be too much of a sensitive subject on this open forum. I'll just say that I think the Bible has done a supernatural job proving itself in prophecy, archeology, history, etc than any book on Earth can claim. If I was God and wanted to separate my book from all other of mans religious texts, I would have it do something that no man could do; tell the future with 100% accuracy. Therefore this is one reason I trust it as the Word of God. Every time an atheist or someone claims something is not true, archeology or prophecy will end up proving them wrong and the Bible true. The Bible truly has proven itself and withstood the tests of time.

Edited February 16, 2010 by JohnOF123

[JohnOF123]

So the infant who dies is condemned to eternal hell.

Nice.

On one of the previous pages, we all agreed that infants, newborns, toddlers, mentally retarded people are not accountable. Hope that makes you feel better. :)

[MeIRL]

On one of the previous pages, we all agreed that infants, newborns, toddlers, mentally retarded people are not accountable. Hope that makes you feel better. :)

This contradicts your assertion that "I believe that we are born sinners, inherited by our earthly father, and ultimately from Adam." Infants and the mentally retarded are also children of Adam.

[Vanhin]

I think D&C 132 is the crowning scriptural evidence that we have of the existence of a heavenly mother. According to the section, exaltation is attained by receiving the new and everlasting covenant and being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. In other words, if we receive the gospel of Jesus Christ, and baptism and all the saving ordinances, and are true to the covenants we make, we will be exalted and be as God is. The last saving ordinance that is performed here in mortality is the sealing of a man and a woman for time and all eternity.

In D&C 132 the Lord teaches that marriage is given "to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified." (D&C 132:63)

God is an Exalted Man, and the spirits of mankind are his offspring. So, if we must enter mortality, gain a body, be baptized, receive all the ordinances of salvation and be sealed eternally to our spouse in order to be like He is and "bear the souls of men" - if that is true at all - then it is true of Him. If I must have a wife to "bear the souls of men" and be like God is, then He must have a wife in order for us to be his offspring, since He himself is an Exalted Man. Else, He is not an Exalted Man - because that is how you become one according to God.

Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. (1 Cor. 11:11)

Truth is "knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;" (D&C 93:24).

Regards,

Vanhin

[JohnOF123]

So the infant who dies is condemned to eternal hell.

Nice.

This contradicts your assertion that "I believe that we are born sinners, inherited by our earthly father, and ultimately from Adam." Infants and the mentally retarded are also children of Adam.

Sin - the transgression of God's law (thou shalt not lie).

Accountability - responsiblity to God for my sin or sinfulness.

Babies + Sinful Nature x Unaccountability = No Hell

No contradiction. Hope that helps clear up things.

[MeIRL]

"I believe that we are born sinners, inherited by our earthly father, and ultimately from Adam."

Babies + Sinful Nature x Unaccountability = No Hell

No contradiction. Hope that helps clear up things.

Not in the least. You want babies to be "born sinners" yet not be sinful. Nonsense.

[Vanhin]

I believe that we are born sinners, inherited by our earthly father, and ultimately from Adam. Jesus's father was God whereas our fathers are fallen men.

Not to gang up on you, but Latter-day Saints believe that we inherit death from Adam. We are born into a world, and to bodies that will ultimately change, decay, and die because of the fall of Adam. Christ's atonement and resurrection overcomes the bonds of death for all who are or ever will be born into mortality. Both sinners and saints alike will be resurrected.

Spiritual death, on the other hand, is something we bring upon ourselves once we become accountable for our actions. The atonement of Christ, also overcomes the bonds of spiritual death, for those who have faith in Christ and keep his commandments. Since we choose to sin, we must also choose to repent and come unto Christ (Moroni 10:32). Children who die before they are accountable, and other people who are not accountable, have not sinned - therefore, the Atonement covers them outright.

Concerning salvation from sins, we claim the following:

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (Articles of Faith 1:2-3)

Regards,

Vanhin

[JohnOF123]

Not in the least. You want babies to be "born sinners" yet not be sinful. Nonsense.

Yes that statement would indeed be nonsense. However, my words are in the Green, yours are in the Red.

My point is not for you to agree with the premise (since LDS do not hold this belief), but to appease your concern for the contradiction you claim exists.

-You originally claimed my words of "we are born sinners" would conclude that infants go to Hell.

-I reminded you that we all agreed babies are not held accountable and therefore do not.

-Then you claimed that I was contradicting myself, since I called babies sinners.

-Next, I felt a need to display the definition for Sin and Accountability to help you see that one can be "born a sinner", yet be unaccountable and therefore not go to Hell. Hence, no contradiction.

-Finally, you misquoted me, so here we are, lol.

Can we please go on with the discussion. No one contradicted themselves here; I believe there is only a difference in doctrine and belief.

[JohnOF123]

Spiritual death, on the other hand, is something we bring upon ourselves once we become accountable for our actions.

Interesting, I didn't know LDS believed this. We believe all men are born spiritually dead, and when they are "born again", they are given spiritual life.

And you're not ganging up too badly, lol, no worries.

Children who die before they are accountable, and other people who are not accountable, have not sinned - therefore, the Atonement covers them outright.

I think I agree here. However, I think you mean that kids sin, but are not held accountable (for their sin). Otherwise "accountable" would have no place in that sentence. I think I would agree there if that's what you meant.

We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (Articles of Faith 1:2-3)

I totally agree that men will not be punished for Adams sin, though we reap all the benefits of his sin (sarcasm).

But where you say

through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel

We say

through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

[MeIRL]

I totally agree that men will not be punished for Adams sin, though we reap all the benefits of his sin (sarcasm).

Since the result of Adam's sin was the Fall, and since the Fall was necessary to bring about the Atonement and our possibility to return to the heavenly Father, we do indeed reap all the benefits of Adam's sin (no sarcasm).

But where you say

through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel

We say

through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

There is no difference. Two ways of saying the same thing.

How do we have faith in Christ? By keeping his commandments, the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. Claiming to have faith without the works that inevitably go with faith is meaningless (or, in Paul's word, dead).

Matthew 7:21-23

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[john doe]

Since there is likely to be no reconciling this subject, I'm inclined to close this thread.

[JohnOF123]

we do indeed reap all the benefits of Adam's sin (no sarcasm).

I was referring to birth pain, death, sickness, murder, disease, etc.

Please don't quote people just to simply try to pick on them. You have only tried to pick on me for my belief in original sin. My statement about reaping woe's from Adam's sin was sound and valid. Everyone was getting along nicely.

There is no difference. Two ways of saying the same thing.

I would disagree, but I have a feeling an explanation will go nowhere.

I'm okay with that if you like john_doe. We've veered pretty far off the OP's subject. Soon, we will be talking about politics, lol.

[john doe]

Then it's settled. Thread closed.