Heavenly Mother and Scripture

[Justice]

I have to point out that you are reading way too much into the text.

OK. Fair enough. I don't expect anyone to believe something new unless the spirit touches them. So, what I hope you will do is at least consider this, and wonder if you haven't been lied to, or misled, most of your life about the nature of God.

Here are some interesting scriptures to ponder as you consider it:

Genesis 5:

1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

You almost have to "un"read it out of that verse.

Luke 3: 38

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

And, you have to "un"read it out of that verse as well.

Remember, the God who spoke to the prophets in the Old Testament is the same being who appeared in the flesh as Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke in parables to hide some meanings from people who refused to see.

Perhaps you are being "had" by a parable-like teaching and simply refuse to "See?"

If we could use other scriptures, modern and ancient, revealed through modern prophets, and quotes from modern prophets, this would be much easier. The problem is, you have to first recognize them as scripture for it to make a difference.

This conversation really can't go any farther until you do. Are you willing to try?

Edited February 12, 2010 by Justice

[JohnOF123]

Well as I mentioned to you in another thread yesterday, I am willing to... however I wound need to see these doctrines in order to search the scriptures to verify the books are from the same source. I know you mentioned some doctrine I can look at will be found in the book of mormon, but are there any other written doctrine that the LDS church consider official doctrine that I can look up somewhere online? I image that main church's website might have this information? If this is indeed where I can read all the doctrines, then what is that offical site, lds.com? mormon.com?

[Justice]

Well, it's not about looking up on-line and comparing tit-for-tat and measuring what's in these "new" scriptures against how you interpret the Bible. I know that we typically learn this way, and it really goes against our natures to NOT learn this way.

Do you trust that the Lord can reveal truth to you?

I have learned that He can.

You need to be willing to put aside the interpretaitons you now have in order to have truth revealed to you. This is obvious. If you are unwilling to accept revelation when it is revealed, then you will not see it when it is.

I'm not talking about accepting any doctines anyone has discussed here on this forum, or anywhere on-line. I'm speaking about being willing to accept personal revelation from the Holy Ghost, that is the only way you can unlearn and relearn the nature and character of God.

You know that anything I say makes absolutely no difference, and my words can't change anyone's mind about what they believe or know. I'm not asking you to be open to my words, other than asking you to be open to revelation. You must be willing to accept what God reveals to you.

If you are willing to do that, and your sole intent is to know if the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is true, then you only have one source.

From the bottom of my heart, and with all the love I can muster, I hope and pray that you will be open and willing to accept what God reveals.

Book of Mormon

Start at the Title Page.

But, remember, if you find yourself comparing the text to Biblical passages and to what you currently believe, it will be very difficult to hear the revelation of new things. Just clear your mind. This book is another testament of Jesus Christ. It is not a testament of another Jesus Christ. It is the same Jesus Christ who was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, endured the atonement and was crucified for the sins of the world, then was resurrected.

The prophets and testimonies contained in this book are directed at Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

If your mind is open and you are genuinely curious if this book is of God, then pray that He will manifest the truth of it to you as you read. With that method, you no longer need anything you learned before to know if it's true. Trust Him...

Edited February 12, 2010 by Justice

[JohnOF123]

Do you trust that the Lord can reveal truth to you?

I have learned that He can.

Yes, however we need to compare scripture like the Buereans did. God called them more noble for doing that. The only problem here is that I would be trusting in a feeling that I am getting. That is dangerous because feelings are powerful and I don't have any way of knowing where that comes from. The Bible warns me not to trust my heart. It says that my heart is deceitful and wicked. So I only have the Bible to use as my ruler. I will start reading the first page as you mentioned.

[Justice]

Well, if you read something you feel is "new" in the Book of Mormon, and it is not addressed exactly the same way as in the Bible, and you refuse to accept it based on that, then there is no need to read the Book of Mormon. I understand your hesitancy, but you must realize the danger.

It's like Jews in the time of Christ who believed the Messiah would be a political ruler. They refused to believe Jesus was the Christ because it was not the way they interpreted the Old Testament. No matter how many times they "read" the New Teatament (or heard the words of Christ or His followers, since the New Testament hadn't been complied yet) it did not matter because they did not "give way" to the truth presented that Jesus was the Messiah.

You are headed down the same path if you compare "new" scripture to your interpretation of the old (or in this case the New Testament). The new can help you understand the old better. You just have to be willing to have faith in His power and mercy. Either you believe God can reveal truth to you, or you do not. If you do not, and proceed to compare tit-for-tat, then you may as well not read. Wait until you're ready, and really curious to know if it is true, and read with faith in His power.

[marts1]

Thousands, if not millions have come to realise that absolute truth concerning God can only come through the Holy Ghost.

[Justice]

It's more than just my opinion, John. Here is a promise to all readers of the Book of Mormon who are genuinely seeking to know if it is of God:

Moroni 10:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

You see, it's about being believing, and having faith in Christ's ability to make the truth known to you. You don't have to know a single thing about what's in the Bible in order for Christ to reveal truth to you. It's man's way to try to compare evidences and come to logical deductions, it is not God's way.

However, once you come to KNOW it's true, then you have your entire life to study and compare... but from the perspective that they agree and are both true, not from the perspective of comparing to see which is true. They are very different methods. God cannot work in us if we doubt. Miracles require faith.

[JohnOF123]

Well, if you read something you feel is "new" in the Book of Mormon, and it is not addressed exactly the same way as in the Bible, and you refuse to accept it based on that, then there is no need to read the Book of Mormon. I understand your hesitancy, but you must realize the danger.

It's like Jews in the time of Christ who believed the Messiah would be a political ruler. They refused to believe Jesus was the Christ because it was not the way they interpreted the Old Testament. No matter how many times they "read" the New Teatament (or heard the words of Christ or His followers, since the New Testament hadn't been complied yet) it did not matter because they did not "give way" to the truth presented that Jesus was the Messiah.

You are headed down the same path if you compare "new" scripture to your interpretation of the old (or in this case the New Testament). The new can help you understand the old better. You just have to be willing to have faith in His power and mercy. Either you believe God can reveal truth to you, or you do not. If you do not, and proceed to compare tit-for-tat, then you may as well not read. Wait until you're ready, and really curious to know if it is true, and read with faith in His power.

I'm not saying I would reject NEW information. I'm saying that if I read information that completely contradicts existing information, that's when everything gets rejected.

The Jews rejected Jesus even though the OT (the Torah) spoke of Him. So He was indeed in their scriptures but they still rejected Him.

So I'm not looking for something that can be interpreted this way or that, I'm looking for doctrine that is completely opposite or contradict that of the Bible. BTW, the OT completely supports the NT and never contradicts it. I would expect the Book of Mormon and doctrines to do the same.

Might be getting off topic here, what were we talking about again, lol.

[Justice]

Thousands, if not millions have come to realise that absolute truth concerning God can only come through the Holy Ghost.

So, then, you will find this passage in Moroni agreeable. :)

[marts1]

I guess you havn't noticed any contradictions within the New Testament as yet.

[marts1]

So, then, you will find this passage in Moroni agreeable. :)

You got that right.

[JohnOF123]

Here is a promise to all readers of the Book of Mormon who are genuinely seeking to know if it is of God:

"...if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

You see, it's about being believing...

I cannot trust my feeling, or what I feel that God is trying to tell me. Muslims feel their religion is true also. To me, this is not a Biblical truth test. Let me illustrate a few reasons I believe this.

Jeremiah 17:9

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

Proverbs 28:26

“He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall he shall be delivered.”

I have to search scripture like the Bureans did.

Acts 17:10-11

“And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea; who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether these things were so”.

They didn't trust what they were told by faith or by prayer. They searched the scriptures and God called them more noble for this.

1 John 4:1

“…believe not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone into the world.”

1 Thessalonians 5:21

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”.

Now do you see where I am coming from? I have to read, and study and search scriptures. I can't just pray, ask God and believe the feeling I get. But I appreciate the vote of confidence and the sincerity!

(also, I haven't come across contradictions, only grammar mistakes and misunderstood context)

Edited February 13, 2010 by JohnOF123

[Justice]

The Jews rejected Jesus even though the OT (the Torah) spoke of Him. So He was indeed in their scriptures but they still rejected Him.

And if you use the same method they did, ignoring the new because it completely contradicted their interpretation of the old, you will get similar results.

So I'm not looking for something that can be interpreted this way or that, I'm looking for doctrine that is completely opposite or contradict that of the Bible.

You understanding of the Bible IS an interpretation. If you think it's not, you are only fooling yourself. Many of your "interpretations" may completely contradict the truth. You wouldn't know since you will not give way to the new. Again, it is exactly why many Jews would not accept Christ. I hope you will seriously think about what I'm saying.

BTW, the OT completely supports the NT and never contradicts it.

...according to your interpretation. There are millions who believe it does.

I suggest that if you actually believe you know every detail; every truth as taught in the Bible today, you are prideful and a bit arrogant to think all other Christians who do not interpret as you do are wrong. I am certain that you know much truth in the Bible, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that without modern prophets and modern scripture it is impossible to properly discern every last truth conatined in the Bible.

I would expect the Book of Mormon and doctrines to do the same.

And this is where you will fail. I am 100% confident the Book of Mormon does not teach everything you believe. I am certain there will be some things that you disagree with. If you have already deduced that it is wrong because it does not meet your approval of Bible interpretation, then again, there is really no need to read it.

I encourage you to at least keep an open mind. There will be nothing groundbreakingly different in the Book of Mormon. It teaches Jesus is the Christ, and only by and through Him can man reach His full potential. However, the Book of Momron addresses topics like resurrection and baptism more pointedly and specific than the Bible does.

So, for instance if you do not believe the Bible teaches baptism is necessary, and must be done by immersion, and by one who has been properly ordained of God, then you will not give way to the "new" idea taught in the Book of Mormon about baptism, because the Book of Mormon clearly teached you must have all 3. It's words and views can be supported in the Bible, but only if your mind isn't already made up about a wrong interpretation of baptism.

(That's just an example, I'm not looking for you to expalin your beliefs about baptism. The truth is many reject the Book of Mormon because they feel it teaches "baptism" differently than the Bible. Which, is my point)

So, as you read, be very careful not to reject just because it seems different that your "interpretaiton." Instead, if you must compare, compare it to the words of the Bible, and not to your interpretaiton (I'm saying it's impossible, but hey, I've been wrong before).

Edited February 13, 2010 by Justice

[Justice]

Now do you see where I am coming from? I have to read, and study and search scriptures. I can't just pray, ask God and believe the feeling I get. But I appreciate the vote of confidence and the sincerity!

Do you believe God cannot manifest truth to you indepentent of all other sources?

(For every scripture you show in the Bible that says not to trust your feelings I can show you one that says you can)

Again, it's not a tit-for-tat comparison.

I guess I've been as clear as I can be. But, the fact that you interpret the Bible to say that God can't reveal truth by power and feeling, is the very point I'm trying to make... the Book of Mormon says He can. So, your natural course of action is to reject what is new, based on your interpretation of the old.

I seriously wish you well in your effort. It will be difficult, if nigh impossible.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Justice

[JohnOF123]

I'm not talking about the "grey areas" that could be interpreted differently. I more or less talking about when one Book calls it "only red" and the other say it's not red but "only blue". Things that are cut and dry. If I can find that, then it can't flow with the Bible. But perhaps I won't. The point is, I cannot just pray about it and rely on my feelings. I will indeed pray about it, dont get me wrong, but I have to rely on the only light I have, the Bible.

Like I said, in this case, it is cut and dry. I'm not interpreting what the Bible says about trusting my feelings and I'm not interpreting what it says about a people group not trusting but searching the scriptures. I'm reading it plainly with no interpretation at all.

Edited February 13, 2010 by JohnOF123

[marts1]

(I'm saying it's impossible, but hey, I've been wrong before).

Oh, you must mean 2 hours ago.:)) j/k I actually find your explanations hard to disbelieve.

oops..that was meant for John sry arghhh

Edited February 13, 2010 by marts1

[Justice]

Like I said, in this case, it is cut and dry. I'm not interpreting what the Bible says about trusting my feelings and I'm not interpreting what it says about a people group not trusting but searching the scriptures. I'm reading it plainly with no interpretation at all.

So, anyone who reads the Bible and understands it differently than you do is "interpreting" it but you are not?

I'm having a hard time grasping that logic.

If 2 people read the same passage in the Bible, and come away with 2 different understandings, there are 3 possibilities:

The 1st person is right and the 2nd person is wrong.

The 2nd person is right and the 1st person is wrong.

They are both wrong.

It is impossible that they are both right.

So, you're saying in every case; every scripture; every story in the Bible, every last word it teaches, if anyone disagrees with you, then they are "interpreting" and therefore they are wrong, since you don't interpret, you just read the words and take them at face value?

That's very amazing to me. If the Bible is so plain and clear why are there so many different Christian religions that teach very different things about the Bible?

There are millions of Christians who have studied the Bible 30+ years who disagree with you about some passages in the Bible. It is prideful, indeed, to accuse them of "interpreting" while you do not.

I'm nearly speechless.

... nearly

[Justice]

Take this simple, quick 3 part test, based on your unbiased, uninterpreted understanding of the Bible, and show me the Biblical scripture that proves your answers:

Is baptism necessary for salvation?

Is immersion necessary for proper baptism?

Does baptism have to be performed by one having authorty from God?

[marts1]

I'd hate to come up against you as a lawyer in a court of law justice.:) I mean the one's that make too much sense. :)

[JohnOF123]

So, anyone who reads the Bible and understands it differently than you do is "interpreting" it but you are not?

I'm having a hard time grasping that logic.

There are millions of Christians who have studied the Bible 30+ years who disagree with you about some passages in the Bible. It is prideful, indeed, to accuse them of "interpreting" while you do not.

Well, when you study the whole Bible in its context, then you can clearly understand what a specific passage says, and your interpretation is more valid than the person I will explain next. Some other people, as you said, pick out certain passages to support their belief, even though that belief contradicts many other parts of the Bible speaking of the same subject.

Let me give you an example:

Billy belongs to a religion. He was always been taught as a Jehovah Witness that only 144,000 elite JW’s will go to heaven.

His source is Revelation 7:4-8

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Now another person named Bob also belongs to a religion. However Bob studies the complete Bible in context. After his studies, he has read things such as...

"..whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.."

"everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved"

"he who stands firm to the end will be saved"

And furthermore, when Bob studied the same scripture interpreted wrong by Billy, it is obvious that the 144,000 are all literal Jews of the ancient tribes with no Gentiles among them (7:4-8). They are all males (14:4) and virgins (14:4).

Bob can be more confident that his interpretation is more Biblical than that of Billy, and Billy must be willing to conform to the Bible, not the other way around.

This is how some interpretations can be trusted and some cannot.

(pertaining to your request of my interpretations of baptism and such, let us start a new thread on that subject)

Edited February 13, 2010 by JohnOF123

[Justice]

John, I think you will find many scholars of the Bible who feel the same as you do. You're not the only person who feels you have to study the entire Bible to understand the individual passages. Yet, I am 100% confident that, even though there are many hundreds of thousands of you who feel the same way, and even study the same way, the majority of you who study this way will still disagree on different stories and doctrines.

Anyway, I don't really want to argue. You have the right to believe your interpretation of the Bible is perfectly accurate. My hope is that you will consider our discussion, and try not to appraoch the Book of Mormon in a critical manner, but in a believing manner. If you have any questions (your legitimate questions, not ones you find on anti-LDS web sites) just let us know and we'll try to find an answer for you.

[bytebear]

Well, when you study the whole Bible in its context, then you can clearly understand what a specific passage says, and your interpretation is more valid than the person I will explain next. Some other people, as you said, pick out certain passages to support their belief, even though that belief contradicts many other parts of the Bible speaking of the same subject.

Let me give you an example:

Billy belongs to a religion. He was always been taught as a Jehovah Witness that only 144,000 elite JW’s will go to heaven.

His source is Revelation 7:4-8

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Now another person named Bob also belongs to a religion. However Bob studies the complete Bible in context. After his studies, he has read things such as...

"..whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.."

"everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved"

"he who stands firm to the end will be saved"

And furthermore, when Bob studied the same scripture interpreted wrong by Billy, it is obvious that the 144,000 are all literal Jews of the ancient tribes with no Gentiles among them (7:4-8). They are all males (14:4) and virgins (14:4).

Bob can be more confident that his interpretation is more Biblical than that of Billy, and Billy must be willing to conform to the Bible, not the other way around.

This is how some interpretations can be trusted and some cannot.

(pertaining to your request of my interpretations of baptism and such, let us start a new thread on that subject)

So, why aren't you Jewish? When Christ came, he contradicted the scholars and religious leaders of the day. Their argument was they knew the scriptures in context, and that some interpretations simply could not be trusted. So they rejected Jesus as a false teacher.

[Nikkie85]

I believe that there is a Heavenly Mother. To me it just makes sense. The family unit is such a big part of the church it doesn't really make much sense to me think that Heavenly Father doesn't have someone by his side.

[JohnOF123]

So, why aren't you Jewish? When Christ came, he contradicted the scholars and religious leaders of the day. Their argument was they knew the scriptures in context, and that some interpretations simply could not be trusted. So they rejected Jesus as a false teacher.

They we hard headed or "stiff necked" as God puts it. The Bible even proclaimed that He would be rejected by His own people. The prophecies in Isaiah and Psalm 22 described a suffering Messiah who would be persecuted and killed, but they chose to focus instead on those prophecies that discussed His glorious victories, not His crucifixion.

[Justice]

So, if the Book of Mormon is scripture about Christ, and Christians reject it, aren't His people still rejecting Him?

What would the difference be between then and now?