Sadistic God?

[marts1]

Those are scriptures Faded posted. Not mans word at all.

[Faded]

How interesting, I was always told that the Spirit Prison was where those who had not accepted the gospel would be sent and there they would be ministered by those who had passed on before them and taught the gospel. That doesn't sound so horrible to me.

And I was always taught that fire and brimstone were metaphorical. *shrug*

You see it your way. I'll see it mine. God is not sadistical..it's man that paints Him that way putting humanly imperfect attributes on a loving and forgiving divine Heavenly Father and I'll say again, it's absolutely an abomination to paint our creator that way.

We should not fear God, but love God. If we fear God we may run from God.

I really get a kick out of people who are so quick to show the HORRIBLE reasons to be obedient rather than the wonderful reasons for serving with a whole heart, without fear.

I'm not trying to portray God as a "do it or I'll roast you alive" type of being. That's not what I'm saying.

What I am trying to get across is this: While Latter Day Saints DO believe that in virtually all cases, hell is not a permanent state, some of us are probably guilty of teaching an extremely watered down version of God's punishment for the wicked. But we have no basis for teaching it that way.

There was a false prophet in the Book of Mormon named Nehor. He and his followers taught that everyone everywhere would be saved no matter what -- also known as universal unconditional salvation. He and his followers taught that there was no punishment for sin, etc. We do want to be careful about wandering too far in that direction with our teachings, because the Nehor-founded doctrine was false according to Book of Mormon prophets.

[prisonchaplain]

And I was always taught that fire and brimstone were metaphorical. *shrug*

I learned that unless there is a strong, obvious, compelling reason to see a scripture passage as allegory, it should be taken literally.

You see it your way. I'll see it mine. God is not sadistical..it's man that paints Him that way putting humanly imperfect attributes on a loving and forgiving divine Heavenly Father and I'll say again, it's absolutely an abomination to paint our creator that way.

IMHO you argument is with the way scripture describes him. You seem to label the biblical depiction sadistical, and then reason that it can't be, so it must be allegorical.

We should not fear God, but love God. If we fear God we may run from God.

A wise man once said that fearing God was the beginning of wisdom. His name was Solomon. Can we really argue with him?

I really get a kick out of people who are so quick to show the HORRIBLE reasons to be obedient rather than the wonderful reasons for serving with a whole heart, without fear.

I don't see that people are so quick to do so. Increasingly we are afraid to even talk about hell. And yet, C.S. Lewis (hardly a conservative or fundamentalist!) suggested that one of Satan's greatest tricks is to convince that hell is not real--that's it's mere allegory.

[marts1]

D&C 76:28-38

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

D&C 76:41-48

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

[Faded]

A wise man once said that fearing God was the beginning of wisdom. His name was Solomon. Can we really argue with him?

It should probably be pointed out that "the world "fear" in the Old Testament does not directly correlate with our understanding of the word in English. In most cases, "fear of the Lord" would imply love, reverence, trust, and acceptance of/subservience to God's will. It doesn't seem to imply that we should be mindlessly terrified of God. Otherwise the scriptures would contradict themselves -- "Cast out all fear" vs "Fear God." The word "fear" obviously must mean something different in these two cases.

I'm sure you're familiar with it PC, but I thought it worthwhile to point it out.

I don't see that people are so quick to do so. Increasingly we are afraid to even talk about hell. And yet, C.S. Lewis (hardly a conservative or fundamentalist!) suggested that one of Satan's greatest tricks is to convince that hell is not real--that's it's mere allegory.

I think Cassiopeia is making well thought out statements and I don't want to disrespect her point of view. I appreciate what she's had to say.

I do want to make sure nobody outside the Church completely misunderstands the LDS doctrine either. There are a lot of non-LDS who claim that we don't believe in hell, and this simply isn't true.

Whether or not the punishment of God (aka Hell) is literally fire and brimstone and so forth or if it is metaphorically speaking, it should matter quite so much. If it really is fire and brimstone, then that sounds terrible enough. If it's metaphorical, then I think the prophets must be trying to describe agony, pain and suffering that is far worse than fire and brimstone and these are words that at least come as close as possible to the reality.

2 Ne. 28:2-23

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Taken together with this:

Doctrine and Covenants 19

1 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world.

2 I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—

3 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.

4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.

5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Take these two passages together and what to we learn?

a.) Hell is something we really don't want to experience.

b.) Hell is not infinite in it's duration of time nor is it a permanent state -- but we should not be any less afraid of it. It sounds downright unpleasant!!

What we gain with this knowledge: God will punish the wicked if they will not repent, true. But he will not inflict an infinite punishment for a finite amount of sin. Properly understood, this demonstrates that our God truly and perfectly just and merciful.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Faded

[marts1]

So you believe that Satan's punishment will have an end?

[Faded]

So you believe that Satan's punishment will have an end?

I'm referring to punishment for the unrepentant, not punishment for the Sons of Perdition.

It's because of the confusion between the two that Latter Day Saints generally call the state of Satan and those worthy of his same fate "Outer Darkness." It helps keep things less confusing.

But I get what you're saying.

[marts1]

I don't know the difference between unrepentant sinner and sons of perdition...Actually maybe I do.

Edited March 5, 2010 by marts1

[Faded]

I don't know the difference between unrepentant sinner and sons of perdition...Actually maybe I do.

Unrepentant sinner of any variety vs person who has exempted themselves from all possibility of forgiveness and become eternally incapable of repenting by committing sin that is unforgivable.

Pretty big difference!

[marts1]

I was thinking of those who deny the Holy Ghost after having recieved...Have we been convincing enough here that justice prevails.:)

[Cassiopeia]

I learned that unless there is a strong, obvious, compelling reason to see a scripture passage as allegory, it should be taken literally.

IMHO you argument is with the way scripture describes him. You seem to label the biblical depiction sadistical, and then reason that it can't be, so it must be allegorical.

A wise man once said that fearing God was the beginning of wisdom. His name was Solomon. Can we really argue with him?

I don't see that people are so quick to do so. Increasingly we are afraid to even talk about hell. And yet, C.S. Lewis (hardly a conservative or fundamentalist!) suggested that one of Satan's greatest tricks is to convince that hell is not real--that's it's mere allegory.

I realize my thoughts and feelings on the subject matter are not traditionally held. I'm speaking from my personal experience that the concept of hell is a state of mind and one of man's own making.

I also understand that my stance on any text that is considered sacred scripture is bound to confound and maybe even offend some. As I've studied throughout my life, and I began studying the bible as soon as I could read (I'm a convert to the LDS church btw) I have found contradictory interpretations from men of theology to my own experiences.

I studied religion at the University of Cape Town and had some amazing professors. We wandered through the various arguments surrounding scripture, it's interpretations, translations and how they came into being.

I have concluded that however inspired someone was to record what they did, we can only speculate as to their meaning and if the events they recorded actually happened.

This is where our faith and influences of the spirit come into play. Since a small child, I have never experienced anything other than the most amazing outpouring of love from my Father in Heaven and my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Even when I've made grievous mistakes in my life, I have always felt that love and not just after I had repented but that love has been steadfast and helped me find my way to better choices.

It is inconceivable to me that the interpretation of scriptures that others use to "fear" God can be considered viable. That is not my experience.

It should probably be pointed out that "the world "fear" in the Old Testament does not directly correlate with our understanding of the word in English. In most cases, "fear of the Lord" would imply love, reverence, trust, and acceptance of/subservience to God's will. It doesn't seem to imply that we should be mindlessly terrified of God. Otherwise the scriptures would contradict themselves -- "Cast out all fear" vs "Fear God." The word "fear" obviously must mean something different in these two cases.

In the world in which I live, which is the field of communications, context is EVERYTHING. Thank you for your example. I reverence, love, trust and completely trust the will of my Father in Heaven. I rely heavily on continued inspiration from the Lord directly. When I do that, I've never been steered wrong. When I have relied on the interpretations of man, I've found myself lost in a sea of opposing beliefs.

When people say to me, I must repent (according to their measuring standards and by that I mean, their own interpretation of how to live my life) it is almost always packed with ultimatums like,

if you don't do this (take your pick of things) you won't make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

if you don't believe in Christ, you will burn in hell.

if you don't make it to every single meeting (no matter what your situation is) you aren't doing all you can to be faithful and you will not be blessed.

if you don't have 2 years supply of food, you aren't following the prophet's advice.

if you don't pay your tithing you are going to suffer financially.

if you don't obey the word of wisdom you'll get sick and may die.

if you divorce your husband, you won't see your children in heaven.

and the if you don't threats go on and on and on.

What has happened to the understanding given to us in the BOM, that if we are compelled to do something, it's as if we never did it at all. To what end would God want to coerce us through fear? The invitation to follow Christ and to love one another is more compelling than "you better do what I say or I'm going to through you into the pit of eternal fire and eternal damnation."

It doesn't track and why is that? Because man in his imperfection and inability to express himself often puts his own perceptions of events into his writing. It's impossible for man to be perfect in relying ideas. I say this as a writer and communicator. So I am very careful about how I interpret the scriptures and I am especially cautious about any man telling me what they mean.

What is the admonish of our leaders? To listen and to ponder and then pray about it. We are counseled to pray about every word that a prophet utters. In recent decades while we hear about the reasons for obedience which are humanly consequences, the message of a loving and divine Heavenly Father and the over powering love of our Savior remains constant. It is not God who punishes us. It is the natural consequence of our own iniquity.

PC--It was my understanding that C.S. Lewis said that Satan would convince us, "he-satan" does not exist. And while I certainly am an avid fan of C.S. Lewis, I do not consider what he has to say as doctrinal but he poses a very intriguing idea. For one could ask then, to what end would Satan try to convince us he does not exist. Perhaps so he can convince us that God does not exist either so that we might fall into despair and lose hope? That has been my experience. Satan did his level best to convince me that neither of them existed. He did NOT prevail.

I think Cassiopeia is making well thought out statements and I don't want to disrespect her point of view. I appreciate what she's had to say.

I do want to make sure nobody outside the Church completely misunderstands the LDS doctrine either. There are a lot of non-LDS who claim that we don't believe in hell, and this simply isn't true.

Whether or not the punishment of God (aka Hell) is literally fire and brimstone and so forth or if it is metaphorically speaking, it should matter quite so much. If it really is fire and brimstone, then that sounds terrible enough. If it's metaphorical, then I think the prophets must be trying to describe agony, pain and suffering that is far worse than fire and brimstone and these are words that at least come as close as possible to the reality.

I can testify to this. That I do believe in the metaphorical hell. I've experienced it. And it was not of God's doing. It is an expression. Just like when I tell people, "I walked through the very mouth of hell and snatched my daughter from it.", I was illustrating what it took for me to save her from Crystal Meth. It was a metaphor to describe how horrifying and painful the experience was and if ever there was a hell, I looked straight into the mouth of it as I sat with her for months as she went through the process of withdrawal and recovery.

Suffice it to say, that experience has humbled me and taught me more fully the truthfulness of the atonement and what Christ did for me and my daughter when He died on the cross and took upon him our sins. I understand the how, what, and why of it now.

I have experience so much love from the Savior in my life and I am so grateful to our Father in Heaven for the strength he gives me daily. I do not need to be threatened into obedience and I bear witness that our Father looks to his children for willing hearts, not fearful compliance.

If you are a parent, you understand that because you don't want your children to do as you say because they are afraid of you but rather because they understand correct principles and are happy to show you the respect and love you deserve.

A willing hear, is a true heart.

[Cassiopeia]

I was thinking of those who deny the Holy Ghost after having recieved...Have we been convincing enough here that justice prevails.:)

When you say that justice prevails, you deny the merciful blessing of the atonement.

Though Satan and the sons of perdition have removed themselves from the saving grace of mercy, that does not apply to the majority of God's children.

[marts1]

Are you saying you believe God is not just! Justice and mercy meet because of the atonement. Justice cannot be robbed or cease to be.

Edited March 5, 2010 by marts1

[marts1]

I can see you are a very good living person, and because of your overpowering feelings of love, which I totally understand, does not mean God has only one emotion. He has them all and He has to abide by laws as well, justice being a very important one of them.

[rameumptom]

God is merciful, but also just. He will not give a kingdom of glory to a person who does not want it. The reality is, a telestial person would hate to dwell in the Celestial Kingdom, because it would not suit him/her. There is a higher standard of living and expectation that they would have to live up to. D&C 88 tells us that those who will not abide the law of a certain kingdom, must dwell in a lower one.

Unrepented sinners are those who have not yet repented. Spirit Prison hell (I do not believe the whole of Spirit Prison is hell, part is for missionary work) is for those who have yet to repent of sins. The pains and sufferings are our own. We see what sins we have committed, and will suffer for them until we finally humble ourselves, fully and completely repent, and turn everything over to Christ. Only Jesus can rescue us. Sons of Perdition hate Jesus so much that they would rather suffer in hell than repent and accept his atonement. So they remain in that state for eternity, because they refuse to repent.

In this way, God maximizes heaven for each individual who seeks it. And he even allows sons of perdition to have what they will accept.

[Cassiopeia]

I have to ask you both, what does it do for you to preach these things in this manner?

God is merciful, but also just. He will not give a kingdom of glory to a person who does not want it. The reality is, a telestial person would hate to dwell in the Celestial Kingdom, because it would not suit him/her. There is a higher standard of living and expectation that they would have to live up to. D&C 88 tells us that those who will not abide the law of a certain kingdom, must dwell in a lower one.

Unrepented sinners are those who have not yet repented. Spirit Prison hell (I do not believe the whole of Spirit Prison is hell, part is for missionary work) is for those who have yet to repent of sins. The pains and sufferings are our own. We see what sins we have committed, and will suffer for them until we finally humble ourselves, fully and completely repent, and turn everything over to Christ. Only Jesus can rescue us. Sons of Perdition hate Jesus so much that they would rather suffer in hell than repent and accept his atonement. So they remain in that state for eternity, because they refuse to repent.

In this way, God maximizes heaven for each individual who seeks it. And he even allows sons of perdition to have what they will accept.

First you, rameumpton--where do you get this idea that people who aren't worthy wouldn't be happy in the Celestial Kingdom and that they would be uncomfortable. I believe that statement to be a rationalization from a part of the LDS culture and not grounded in doctrinal fact. It is indeed a speculation, not truth. Not everyone who sins abhors righteousness, but rather perhaps those who knowingly sin against the spirit and they have their own place.

Amongst those who have not repented are good people who may not know how to repent or have the will to and then there are those who do not know they sin.

When you talk in terms of God maximizing heaven for us, I flinch. You do not see that your words are placing your own desires on our Heavenly Father's actions. Indeed I find such language to be offensive in the manner in which it portrays the Kingdom of Heaven in worldly terminology that depicts greed and promotes a secularism as though it were a country club.

I can see you are a very good living person, and because of your overpowering feelings of love, which I totally understand, does not mean God has only one emotion. He has them all and He has to abide by laws as well, justice being a very important one of them.

Whether or not I'm a very good living person has no bearing on this discussion. I am here to proclaim that it is God's love for us, his children that caused him to ask our divine Savior to sacrifice his life for us. that is far more merciful than just.

If we are to apply the principle of justice equally with mercy, it does not give us a picture of what has been accomplished through the atonement. While I agree that there must be justice, it is clear to me that our Father leans more to mercy for there is a multitude of sins for which we can not make restitution.

In spreading concepts of hell fire and damnation, we actually terrorize our brothers and sisters and compel them through fear. I have come to see that people make themselves feel better by preaching this sort of terrorizing doctrine because we can at least say to ourselves:

I attend my meetings

I pay my tithes

I obey the word of wisdom

I do my home or visiting teaching

I do service

I keep the commandments

etc....

I have learned in my own life how easy it is to look at the lives of others and to measure harshly so that I, as do many others, comforted myself like the Jews of old who counted their steps and I was puffed up in self righteousness and attempted to make myself feel better. After all, I had done all I could and I had secured my place in the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom. Right? Not so fast.

We forget that simple call:

Have I done any good in the world today?

Have I helped anyone in need?

Have I cheered up the sad, made someone feel glad.

If not I have failed indeed.

Has anyone’s burden been lighter today?

Because I was willing to share?

Have the sick and the weary been helped on their way?

When they needed my help was I there?

Then wake up and do something more

Than dream of your mansion above.

Doing good is a pleasure, a joy beyond measure,

A blessing of duty and love.

The time is now for all of God's children to reach out to each other in faith and in love and to do the greatest of all things Jesus asked of us. "As I have love you, love one another."

Were we not admonished through the words of Paul? Are we not entreated by his impassioned letter to the Corinthians? Read carefully and don't just skim through this well known scripture.

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

If your intent is to "teach them the truth" remember that Satan would use that "truth" to compel people to obedience knowing full well, it is not sufficient motivation to sustain a life time of devoted service and obedience to our Father in Heaven.

Rather, entreat them with your actions and your words. Teach them as Christ taught us by example how to love one another. When one has the true love and light of Christ in their heart, it is very difficult to harbor iniquity.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Cassiopeia

[marts1]

Your choice if you do not want to believe all of the gospel, thats fine but it is not my way.

Edited March 5, 2010 by marts1

[Dravin]

First you, rameumpton--where do you get this idea that people who aren't worthy wouldn't be happy in the Celestial Kingdom and that they would be uncomfortable. I believe that statement to be a rationalization from a part of the LDS culture and not grounded in doctrinal fact.

You can disagree with the interpretation, but he isn't pulling it out of nowhere.

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

Amongst those who have not repented are good people who may not know how to repent or have the will to and then there are those who do not know they sin.

11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.

Just like all of us, the ignorant will be taught and then make the choice of living the laws of the particular kingdoms. The ignorant are not accountable (if that is truly what they are, and there are varying levels of ignorance but that's God's decision). So your talk about the ignorant isn't particularly pertinent to Ram's comments. We will be judged on our knowledge, not our ignorance. And if you are taking Ram's comments to mean the Jong Wei of China 1200BC can't abide a celestial glory because he didn't live a celestial law in this life (not knowing the laws), I think you are reading something that isn't there.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Dravin

[marts1]

I prefer to accept all of the words of God myself.

[Cassiopeia]

You are clearly not reading what I'm saying. I didn't say he pulled the words out of nowhere. I'm saying placing such emphasis on them instead of Christ's teaching to love one another is an act of terrorizing our brothers and sisters into obedience instead of entreating them with love and the many heart felt reasons behind following our Father's commandments with a willing heart instead of threatening them with fire and damnation.

Marts1, I am offended by your insinuation. Next time you want to accuse me of something, come right out and say it.

As for your swipe at me, I have never said I do not accept all of God's words. I've said, I do not like man's interpretation of them at times like this when I feel they are used to force others into obedience. Last time I checked we are not in the business of coercing people to follow the commandments.

[Dravin]

And yet these words are Christ's. Don't forget the carrot for the stick or the stick for the carrot. There are blessing and consequences associated with obedience/disobedience.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

[marts1]

You are clearly not reading what I'm saying. I didn't say he pulled the words out of nowhere. I'm saying placing such emphasis on them instead of Christ's teaching to love one another is an act of terrorizing our brothers and sisters into obedience instead of entreating them with love and the many heart felt reasons behind following our Father's commandments with a willing heart instead of threatening them with fire and damnation.

Marts1, I am offended by your insinuation. Next time you want to accuse me of something, come right out and say it.

As for your swipe at me, I have never said I do not accept all of God's words. I've said, I do not like man's interpretation of them at times like this when I feel they are used to force others into obedience. Last time I checked we are not in the business of coercing people to follow the commandments.

The subject I was discussing was judgement, not anything else. You made it quite obvious that you did not agree with those scriptures. This is good if I and others made a mistake with what you were trying to say.

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps some members can enlighten me. In evangelical churches, my experience is that the doctrine of hell is seldom mentioned. It comes across much the way Cassiopia states, and people just do not want to be negative or judgmental. A few famous ministers openly admit they just do not talk about it. Even Billy Graham, who believes in hell, when asked to describe it, is known to have said "it's separation from God."

Is this reticence not even stronger in LDS circles? I find it difficult to believe the doctrine would be abused as a means of controlling people with fear, in your wards.

[marts1]

It is about the least talked about subject on religion from what I have heard or seen.

[Cassiopeia]

And yet these words are Christ's. Don't forget the carrot for the stick or the stick for the carrot. There are blessing and consequences associated with obedience/disobedience.

In all my years as a member I have never seen anyone snatch a scripture like that from it's context to drive home eternal damnation. It is always tempered with words of hope and love.

Perhaps some members can enlighten me. In evangelical churches, my experience is that the doctrine of hell is seldom mentioned. It comes across much the way Cassiopia states, and people just do not want to be negative or judgmental. A few famous ministers openly admit they just do not talk about it. Even Billy Graham, who believes in hell, when asked to describe it, is known to have said "it's separation from God."

Is this reticence not even stronger in LDS circles? I find it difficult to believe the doctrine would be abused as a means of controlling people with fear, in your wards.

On rare occasion as this thread illustrates I see people discuss eternal damnation but our leaders and lessons are geared in a positive way. Which is why I'm most ardent in pointing out that we do not often see people talking about it this way. We are always counseled to focus on the good and loving things about our faith.

Marts1--there is nothing in what I said in any of my posts to indicate that I don't believe the scriptures. I object once again to not only taking what I'm saying out of context but the use of scriptures out of context.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Cassiopeia