What One Lds Distinctive Truth Is Most Essential?

[prisonchaplain]

I have never said that people in other churches are not Christians, or that other people do not worship Jesus Christ. I have simply said that not everybody who is a Christian, or who believes in Jesus Christ, has received authority from Him or from His duly authorized servants. You still seem to be having trouble making the distinction between having beliefs and having authority, with the understanding that no matter how much you know, you still may not have authority.

Okay, I'll rephrase. Let's see if I can capture the nuance better. Non-LDS Christians may be Christians, they may worship Jesus, but they have no authority to be missionaries, apostles, prophets, bishops, or to represent Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world. Only those duly authorized in the one true restored Christian Church (LDS) have authority from Jesus Christ. Have I understood you?

I have been trying to approach you as someone who does not see something I see, while trying to help you see it, in a “proper and affectionate manner”. ... I simply know that I can see some things that you can’t see, and I am trying to help you see them.

So, are you trying to help those like me move from the Terrestial to the Celestial kingdom? Perhaps from glory to GLORY? If so, perhaps you are closer to Robinson's view than I have intimated.

I did not say that Pentecostals speak gibberish. I was saying that the gift of speaking in tongues results in people who can speak in other tongues, not people who can speak in gibberish.

I'll just explain the Pentecostal position, and leave to you as FYI. We believe that the gift of speaking in tongues need not be a human language. In fact, in the context of 1 Corinthians 12-14, it probably was not. Otherwise, why the need for a gift of interpretation? If the primary purpose of the gift of tongues was to communicate a gospel message in a foreign tongue, then the receiver would not need an interpreter. It's pretty clear that the tongues-speech was not understood by the church. Paul also said that tongues edifies the individual, but it's the interpetation that edifies the church. Thus, the context was that the tongues-speech was an unknown language.

Ray, you've worked hard on this string, and I appreciate your comments, your insights, and the exchange. God bless you...until next time!

[Serg]

Well, concerning the One True Church, as far as I see, our lds argument has not been enough throughout this LONG conversation (aparrently) with our brother here.

Yet, concerning the "tongues' as "gibberish", cant be true at all. I know, as Ray does, that MOST(not all) of the aspects of these "so called"tongues are indeed foreign languages to preach the gospel, indeed, what we find in Acts, in Pentecost, is a gift to PREACH in the foreign languages of the people thereof. But anyways, and this may come as a sorprise, its found in the early records of teh Church, and mostly in diaries of the converts that there was a "tongues gift" and is not quite described as a foreign language, after all, did not JS or BY speak in the ADAMIC language? What for? may we ask. What for? Not to preach certainly! For who would understand? And obviously not to bragg about it, not did the Lord give them such a gift just to practice it, or to show of, or to "grow"in salvation, for what does speaking in such a language(or any by the way) has to do with salvation?

Yet my protestant friend, what has been crawling all up on the christian faith nowadays, is that a person that does not get to speak in tongues has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit, therefore is NOT saved, for , who will be those to inherit the Kningdom, if not the Sons, and which ones if in facy (as Romans says) ONLY those guided by the Spirit and sealed with it will be saved? Oh, but does not Paul say in 1 Corinthians 12 that NOT everybody in the Church speaks in tongues? For ofcourse it states that not all can be eyes, or hands in the same body, so like it, not all will have the same gifts, for if such were the situation, will the rest of the gifts(out of the one or ones already given) just vanish? Yet again, will everybody be an apostle, a prophet, a pastor, a missionary of regular time! Imagine it! A church in which EVERY one is a pastor or a bishop! It does not make sense, for as the Lord said the SICK are the oned who need the doctor , not the doctors need the doctors, or as Paul says in 1Cor.12, talking of ministries, are they all prophets? Are they all apostles? are they all peroformers of miracles? Do they all speak in tongues?

Samewise it says that there are those in the Church in AUTHORITY, of course it makes a difference between the authority given to the believer based on Christs saving role to him, and that of the persons who administrate the Church...

Anyways, this sort of organization that often is not present in most churches is very important.

Regards,

[prisonchaplain]

I know, as Ray does, that MOST(not all) of the aspects of these "so called"tongues are indeed foreign languages to preach the gospel, indeed, what we find in Acts, in Pentecost, is a gift to PREACH in the foreign languages of the people thereof.

I'm sorry to strain this gnat, because your overall post at least party makes my point. However, in the five cases in the book of Acts, where Spirit-baptism takes place, ONLY in Acts 2:4 did the tongues appear to be human. Also, if I'm not mistaken, many of the "foreign languages" spoken were dialects, and most of the audience had the ability to understand the disciples without the tongues speech. My point is that there is no case in the New Testament where speaking in tongues is used to aid a missionary/apostle in presenting the gospel in a foreign language. Even in the Acts 2:4 case, they were glorifying God in tongues, not offering any plan of salvation--that came later, with Peter's defense.

But anyways, and this may come as a sorprise, its found in the early records of teh Church, and mostly in diaries of the converts that there was a "tongues gift" and is not quite described as a foreign language, after all, did not JS or BY speak in the ADAMIC language? What for? may we ask. What for? Not to preach certainly! For who would understand? And obviously not to bragg about it, not did the Lord give them such a gift just to practice it, or to show of, or to "grow"in salvation, for what does speaking in such a language(or any by the way) has to do with salvation?

I remember hearing somebody mention Mormons and an Adamic language, but never studied what this phenomenon was about. Thanks for the insight. There do seem to be some parallels here with the Pentecostal/Charismatic understanding of tongues used as a prayer language.

Yet my protestant friend, what has been crawling all up on the christian faith nowadays, is that a person that does not get to speak in tongues has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit, therefore is NOT saved, for , who will be those to inherit the Kningdom, if not the Sons, and which ones if in facy (as Romans says) ONLY those guided by the Spirit and sealed with it will be saved?

Three views on tongues and Spirit-baptism within Pentecostal and Charismatic movements:

1. Tongues is one possible sign, but not the only or even most important one. (Charismatics)

2. Tongues are the initial, physical evidence of Spirit-baptism. However, all Christians "receive the Holy Ghost" at salvation. Baptism in the Holy Ghost is a "second work of grace," that brings greater power. For example, all the Christians in the New Testament received the baptism in the Holy Ghost AFTER salvation. (Classic Pentecostalism)

3. Tongues are the evidence of baptism in the Holy Ghost, and they are a requirement of salvation. Furthermore, some argue you must be baptized in the name of Jesus only (not Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) to be saved. (United Pentecostal Church, and a few independent churches). Such interpretations often come from groups that deny the Trinity, and are strongly disavowed by the first two groups.

To hold mainstream Pentecostals and Charismatics responsible for the erroneous teachings of a few in group three would be akin to non-Mormons blaming your church for the illegal polygamy of fundamentalists groups that happen to use the Sacred Works to justify their practices.

Oh, but does not Paul say in 1 Corinthians 12 that NOT everybody in the Church speaks in tongues?

It is true that not everyone will have the GIFT OF TONGUES, which is always accompanied by interpretation, and is meant for the church to hear. However, tongues that comes with Spirit-baptism, and is used for prayer is accessible by all.

[Serg]

I might ask, with which of the three(views concerning the gift of tongues and salvation) above do you agree?

[prisonchaplain]

I might ask, with which of the three(views concerning the gift of tongues and salvation) above do you agree?

#2. I'm an ordained minister with the Assemblies of God, which, with the possible exception of the Church of God in Christ, is the largest classic Pentecostal denomination in the U.S., with roughly 3 million members--about 35 million worldwide.

[Guest Monica]

Why not?