Proof = tempting the Lord?

[Saturnfulcrum]

wait wait wait. You don't believe in Brahma?

We're gonna have some problems here.

[rameumptom]

I don't believe in Brahma either. Biggest liar I ever came across. And he owes me 20 bucks!

[Saturnfulcrum]

Careful there, Brahma might send his super secret ninjas after you if he finds out you've been talking that way about him.

[zippy_do46]

Sometimes when threads are posted on here, I can only see a answer at my level of understanding. Interesting is what the Bible Dictionary says in the King James used by the Church it says:

"All true faith must be based upon correct knowledge or it cannot produce the desired results. Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel and is more then belief since true faith always moves its possessor to some kind of physical and mental action: it carries an assurance of the fulfillment of the thing hoped for. ...."

It goes on to say that our Faith should grow like a seed even into a tree. This tells me we should seek and ask for understanding. Seeking in Faith the knowledge to make your decisions should not be stepping over the line and asking for a sign.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sometimes when threads are posted on here, I can only see a answer at my level of understanding. Interesting is what the Bible Dictionary says in the King James used by the Church it says:

"All true faith must be based upon correct knowledge or it cannot produce the desired results. Faith in Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel and is more then belief since true faith always moves its possessor to some kind of physical and mental action: it carries an assurance of the fulfillment of the thing hoped for. ...."

It goes on to say that our Faith should grow like a seed even into a tree. This tells me we should seek and ask for understanding. Seeking in Faith the knowledge to make your decisions should not be stepping over the line and asking for a sign.

I am on the same page. Some people (and I have done this myself at times) equate "seek and ask for understanding" (as you say it) with asking for proof. That proving something is the way to gain understanding. Some of that comes from having to do that in certain fields of study and then it is brought into the gospel discussion realm.

[Hemidakota]

At what point does a strong desire for knowledge turn into desire for proof when it comes to spiritual knowledge. I have a science background and so my tendency is to find the proof or evidence based knowledge in whatever topic. And, I know a lot of you are that way too by previous conversations. When it comes to the gospel I think we have to switch gears and learn spiritually. Spiritually based learning is through the Holy Ghost, its a spirit to spirit communication. It's not something that can easily be transmitted by a series of arguments for or against a specific point.

But, where is that "line" where a strong desire for truth turns into a desire for proof. And if we ask for proof, isn't that the same as asking for a sign? Isn't that similar to Satan tempting Jesus to throw himself down from a high place and let angels save him from death? What did Jesus say to that? Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I don't want to tempt the Lord. So, how do you know when you have crossed that line, when you are really asking God to prove Himself, even though (in your mind) it is just a strong desire for knowledge and truth?

How do you define levels of a testimony? For me, there are but three levels that I have seen over the years as member and have formulated into but three levels of sequence:

1] FAITH

2] KNOWLEDGE

3] WITNESSING

Now, among the three, which one can you accurately choose?

How do a Saint, go from FAITH to KNOWLEDGE? What did the Lord state to the prophet Joseph in the D&C 93? What is the difference of FAITH and KNOWLEDGE?

Once we achieve on what the Savior gave, how does one proceed from KNOWLEDGE to WITNESSING? What was the level of testimony did the teenage boy, Joseph Smith, received in the woods nearby his home? As you note, it was quite a difference for this youthful chosen prophet as for us. Not all fall under the same sequential order but never-or-less, we hope, we end up the same as he did in the beginning.

It is not tempting the Lord to desire something that is not the unusual objective or method in achieving what other members may not have received. What is deemed by the Lord that is appropriate for your salvation and edification is given.

Do you know Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaiah, Peter, or Joseph Smith true desire? Did not Abraham state in his own writing that he desired and sought the same knowledge of the patriarchal fathers? Did not one of the sons of Aram sought to be like Enoch and in receiving the same aspiration as the Great High Priest?

The argument is not the same when we compare those spirits who desire is not truly acknowledging the true intent of receiving proof as in the case of Laman, Lemuel, or even Korihor who sought a sign. Even after given a sign as in the case of Laman, did give thanks to GOD and added it to his testimony? Nay! Go to the section D&C 93 for the answer how truths are manifested.

[Seminarysnoozer]

How do you define levels of a testimony? For me, there are but three levels that I have seen over the years as member and have formulated into but three levels of sequence:

1] FAITH

2] KNOWLEDGE

3] WITNESSING

Now, among the three, which one can you accurately choose?

How do a Saint, go from FAITH to KNOWLEDGE? What did the Lord state to the prophet Joseph in the D&C 93? What is the difference of FAITH and KNOWLEDGE?

Once we achieve on what the Savior gave, how does one proceed from KNOWLEDGE to WITNESSING? What was the level of testimony did the teenage boy, Joseph Smith, received in the woods nearby his home? As you note, it was quite a difference for this youthful chosen prophet as for us. Not all fall under the same sequential order but never-or-less, we hope, we end up the same as he did in the beginning.

It is not tempting the Lord to desire something that is not the unusual objective or method in achieving what other members may not have received. What is deemed by the Lord that is appropriate for your salvation and edification is given.

Do you know Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaiah, Peter, or Joseph Smith true desire? Did not Abraham state in his own writing that he desired and sought the same knowledge of the patriarchal fathers? Did not one of the sons of Aram sought to be like Enoch and in receiving the same aspiration as the Great High Priest?

The argument is not the same when we compare those spirits who desire is not truly acknowledging the true intent of receiving proof as in the case of Laman, Lemuel, or even Korihor who sought a sign. Even after given a sign as in the case of Laman, did give thanks to GOD and added it to his testimony? Nay! Go to the section D&C 93 for the answer how truths are manifested.

I think Dallin H. Oaks states it well ;

"What do we mean when we testify and say that we know the gospel is true? Contrast that kind of knowledge with “I know it is cold outside” or “I know I love my wife.” These are three different kinds of knowledge, each learned in a different way. Knowledge of outside temperature can be verified by scientific proof. Knowledge that we love our spouse is personal and subjective. While not capable of scientific proof, it is still important. The idea that all important knowledge is based on scientific evidence is simply untrue.

While there are some “evidences” for gospel truths (for example, see Psalm 19:1; Helaman 8:24), scientific methods will not yield spiritual knowledge. This is what Jesus taught in response to Simon Peter’s testimony that He was the Christ: “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). The Apostle Paul explained this. In a letter to the Corinthian Saints, he said, “The things of God knoweth no man, but [by] the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:11; see also John 14:17).

In contrast, we know the things of man by the ways of man, but “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14)."

There is a certain amount of knowledge that is required to "know" about the gospel and the commandments to eventually receive the fullness of truth as you gave in D&C 93. But it is not necessary to know everything that is provable through scientific reason, like Oaks says it. This is why my question related to "wanting proof." To me, the desire for proof already makes it the kind of knowledge that is outside of the kind of knowledge spoken of in D&C 93. The fullness of truth can be reached without any provable back up like Oaks example of "its cold outside." So, reasoning back, if we are really seeking the knowledge needed to reach a "fullness of knowledge" there is no proof necessary. And if its not necessary, than it is simply tempting the Lord, like asking Him to jump off the spire to prove He is really the Savior.