Brass Plates

[Justice]

I don't know why I've always missed it before, but while reading today something jumped off the page.

Have you ever wondered what language the Brass Plates were written in?

The Book of Mormon clearly tells us what language the Brass Plates were written in.

Does anyone know without looking? Where did you find it?

I found it interesting.

[bytor2112]

Hebrew?

[Dravin]

Reformed Egyptian, and if it had been in Hebrew there would have been no imperfection in their record according to Moroni. But Reformed Egyptian took less space.

*goes to double check*

Yep, Moroni is the one who points it out, though it is contained in the book named after his father (Mormon 9).

[Justice]

Moroni is referring to either the Large Plates of Nephi or the Plates of Mormon, correct? Not the Brass Plates? They never wrote in the Brass Plates, right?

You're referring to Mormon 9, I believe.

Mormon 9 (written by Moroni):

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

Although, what he wrote here is something I was going to bring up when I gave you my theory.

A few more replies and I'll show you where I think the answer is.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Justice

[MarginOfError]

"For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time" (Mosiah 1:4).

[Hemidakota]

EGYPTIAN Script Language...

Let me add some vestige from Brother Sperry insight regarding the language used:

In explaining to his sons the importance of record keeping (and especially the importance of the brass plates in the preservation of the Nephites), King Benjamin said, "For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children" (Mosiah 1:4; italics added). It is difficult to know exactly what is meant when King Benjamin indicated that the brass plates were written in Egyptian. In speaking on this matter, one Latter-day Saint scholar has written that the plates "were almost certainly not started until after the flood and the tower of Babel, as there was no Egyptian language before these events. The brass plates were probably not started until after the Israelites went down into Egypt in the days of Joseph, although the writers on these plates may have had access to records that had been written earlier." First of all, perhaps the phrase "language of the Egyptians" in the above verse means the same thing that Nephi meant when he spoke of the language of his father (and thus the language of the Book of Mormon) as consisting of "the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians" (1 Nephi 1:2). That is to say, the Nephite record reflected the Hebrew culture and background of the Jews but was written in Egyptian characters. In the present context, then, the brass plates may have been records of Hebrew prophets and their prophecies, all recorded in an Egyptian script. According to Sperry:

Every reader of the Nephite record has observed the large number of quotations of the text of Isaiah, which were taken from the brass plates. Now it must be remembered that Isaiah was a Hebrew prophet and an advisor at the royal court in Jerusalem. Were his sermons given in Egyptian? Common sense says not. Otherwise we have to assume that they were translated into Egyptian and copied on the brass plates. . . . Doesn't it seem unreasonable to believe that the sermons of the Hebrew prophets, down to and including Jeremiah (1 Nephi 5:13), which were delivered in Hebrew, would be translated into Egyptian and then copied onto the brass plates—itself a record kept for the benefit of Hebrews? . . . The Hebrew scriptures on the brass plates evidently became well known in the Nephite nation, but nowhere is the statement made that they were translated from Egyptian into the Nephite language—that is, into Hebrew.

Professor Sperry then remarked:

"The writer is frank to say that he sees little evidence that our present English text of the Book of Mormon betrays having been translated from an Egyptian original; on the other hand traces of a Hebrew original seem abundant."

Secondly, it may be that only a portion of the brass plates was written in Egyptian. We know that the Israelites spent centuries in Egyptian bondage. Joseph, the great-grandson of Abraham, spent a total of ninety-three years in Egypt and surely would have become proficient in the language of the Pharaohs. Moses, the author-editor of the Pentateuch, spent the first forty years of his life in Egypt and "was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (Acts 7:22). "We . . . suppose that [Moses] copied or condensed the historical portions of Genesis from the writings of Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, and the patriarchs. The fourteenth and fiftieth chapters of Genesis, both as restored by Joseph Smith, must have been written respectively by Melchizedek and Joseph (the son of Jacob) in the first instance." A second possibility, then, is that the first five books of Moses were written in Egyptian and that the historical books and prophecies of such notable personalities as Isaiah and Jeremiah were given and recorded in Hebrew. Lehi's knowledge of Egyptian would thus have allowed him to read and pass on the sacred knowledge contained in Moses' first five books—the story of the birth and development of the nation of Israel.

In speaking to his rebellious brothers, Nephi declared: "It is wisdom in God that we should obtain these records [brass plates], that we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers" (1 Nephi 3:19). In the light of the discussion above, it may be that the Nephites felt the need to preserve the Hebrew language, the Egyptian language (script), or both. So far as the Lehite colony was concerned, such a preservation would serve to do more than remind this American branch of Israel of its illustrious past—it would, as indicated earlier, prove essential in maintaining both intellectual and spiritual literacy (1 Nephi 4:13; Omni 1:17).

In explaining to his sons the importance of record keeping (and especially the importance of the brass plates in the preservation of the Nephites), King Benjamin said, "For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children" (Mosiah 1:4; italics added). It is difficult to know exactly what is meant when King Benjamin indicated that the brass plates were written in Egyptian. In speaking on this matter, one Latter-day Saint scholar has written that the plates "were almost certainly not started until after the flood and the tower of Babel, as there was no Egyptian language before these events. The brass plates were probably not started until after the Israelites went down into Egypt in the days of Joseph, although the writers on these plates may have had access to records that had been written earlier." First of all, perhaps the phrase "language of the Egyptians" in the above verse means the same thing that Nephi meant when he spoke of the language of his father (and thus the language of the Book of Mormon) as consisting of "the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians" (1 Nephi 1:2). That is to say, the Nephite record reflected the Hebrew culture and background of the Jews but was written in Egyptian characters. In the present context, then, the brass plates may have been records of Hebrew prophets and their prophecies, all recorded in an Egyptian script. According to Sperry: Every reader of the Nephite record has observed the large number of quotations of the text of Isaiah, which were taken from the brass plates. Now it must be remembered that Isaiah was a Hebrew prophet and an advisor at the royal court in Jerusalem. Were his sermons given in Egyptian? Common sense says not. Otherwise we have to assume that they were translated into Egyptian and copied on the brass plates. . . . Doesn't it seem unreasonable to believe that the sermons of the Hebrew prophets, down to and including Jeremiah (1 Nephi 5:13), which were delivered in Hebrew, would be translated into Egyptian and then copied onto the brass plates—itself a record kept for the benefit of Hebrews? . . . The Hebrew scriptures on the brass plates evidently became well known in the Nephite nation, but nowhere is the statement made that they were translated from Egyptian into the Nephite language—that is, into Hebrew.

Professor Sperry then remarked: "The writer is frank to say that he sees little evidence that our present English text of the Book of Mormon betrays having been translated from an Egyptian original; on the other hand traces of a Hebrew original seem abundant."

Secondly, it may be that only a portion of the brass plates was written in Egyptian. We know that the Israelites spent centuries in Egyptian bondage. Joseph, the great-grandson of Abraham, spent a total of ninety-three years in Egypt and surely would have become proficient in the language of the Pharaohs. Moses, the author-editor of the Pentateuch, spent the first forty years of his life in Egypt and "was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (Acts 7:22). "We . . . suppose that [Moses] copied or condensed the historical portions of Genesis from the writings of Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, and the patriarchs. The fourteenth and fiftieth chapters of Genesis, both as restored by Joseph Smith, must have been written respectively by Melchizedek and Joseph (the son of Jacob) in the first instance." A second possibility, then, is that the first five books of Moses were written in Egyptian and that the historical books and prophecies of such notable personalities as Isaiah and Jeremiah were given and recorded in Hebrew. Lehi's knowledge of Egyptian would thus have allowed him to read and pass on the sacred knowledge contained in Moses' first five books—the story of the birth and development of the nation of Israel.

In speaking to his rebellious brothers, Nephi declared: "It is wisdom in God that we should obtain these records [brass plates], that we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers" (1 Nephi 3:19). In the light of the discussion above, it may be that the Nephites felt the need to preserve the Hebrew language, the Egyptian language (script), or both. So far as the Lehite colony was concerned, such a preservation would serve to do more than remind this American branch of Israel of its illustrious past—it would, as indicated earlier, prove essential in maintaining both intellectual and spiritual literacy (1 Nephi 4:13; Omni 1:17).

[Justice]

Hebrew?

I have always thought or just assumed this also.

"For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time" (Mosiah 1:4).

That's it. Mosiah 1: 4.

Also, there is something interesting here:

1 Nephi 1:

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

This means Lehi knew Egyptian, and since the Brass Plates were written in Egyptian, it means the Jews were accustomed to, or at least familiar with, writing in Egyptian, it seems particularly for keeping scriptural records.

Moroni makes the point that they wrote in Hebrew also. But, it's interesting to think that the Brass Plates were written in Egyptian, and what implications that might have.

I'll give you time to ponder on it and offer any insight.

Also, it's interesting that the record of Coriantumr was written on a large stone...

Omni 1:

20 And it came to pass in the days of Mosiah, there was a large stone brought unto him with engravings on it; and he did interpret the engravings by the gift and power of God.

21 And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.

while Ether's record, presumably of the same events, was written on gold plates...

Mosiah 28:

11 Therefore he took the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, and also the plates of Nephi, and all the things which he had kept and preserved according to the commandments of God, after having translated and caused to be written the records which were on the plates of gold which had been found by the people of Limhi, which were delivered to him by the hand of Limhi;

Ether 1:

2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether.

Interesting how the secular record kept by Coriantumr, or caused to be kept by him, was on a stone, while the more spiritual record kept by Ether was on plates.

Plates of Ether

Plates of Brass

Plates of Lehi

Plates of Nephi

Plates of Mormon

Interesting.

Also, except for just a few words and insights, the bulk of what we have from the Book of Ether is just a geneaology.

Speaking of these 24 gold plates found by Ammon (not the son of Mosiah):

Mosiah 28:

19 And this account shall be written hereafter; for behold, it is expedient that all people should know the things which are written in this account.

We really don't know what is written in that account, except for a few abridged stories. But, we are told they will be made known to us in the future.

Any more thoughts?

Edited May 5, 2010 by Justice

[Hemidakota]

Plates of Ether were condensed version of his own writings and not the complete records of the Jaredites. After considering that Jared brought those plates of the history from Adam to the Tower, it is highly unlikely there were the same plates, noting the length of time from Jared to Ether. But again, what I would summarize, like Mormon, he took the records, condensed the spiritual history of the people on 24-plates.

Since Joseph and those who were allowed to view the 'apartment sized room' at the hill, there mounds and mounds of plates that filled the space of 16'x16'; both civic and secular history of the Nephites, Lamanites, Mulekites, and the Jaredites. I would be interested to read the civic history of both sets of people.

[Justice]

Where did you hear or read that the Jaredite Plates went back to Adam? Are you saying the writings did, or the actual authors did?

So, what's your theory about the room where Mormon buried the Large Paltes of Nephi? Is it at the Cumorah we know? Or, some other hill called Cumorah? If so, where do you think it is?

[RipplecutBuddha]

Where did you hear or read that the Jaredite Plates went back to Adam? Are you saying the writings did, or the actual authors did?

So, what's your theory about the room where Mormon buried the Large Paltes of Nephi? Is it at the Cumorah we know? Or, some other hill called Cumorah? If so, where do you think it is?

From what I can recall, the hill we know as Cumorah has been thoroughly examined by ground penetrating radar, and other means in order to search for the remaining records, but no likely place has been found within that hill.

It must be another hill elsewhere, or we need better technology to find the spot within the hill we know about.

While it would be amazing to find the other records, they won't be found until God is ready for them to be found. Hopefully I get to see that day, but I won't cry if I don't.

In a related mater, what of the sealed portion of the golden plates? While Joseph was forbidden from reading them or translating them, we have been promised that the day will come when they will be translated. What could be done to hasten the day?

I believe it was Ezra T. Benson that spoke on this matter when he said something like this...(amazingly authoritative quote to follow....)

"When will we recive further scripture from God? When we make full use of the scripture we already have."

It follows the eternal pattern of growth....we came here only when our further growth was not possible in heaven. We cannot expect more until we are at our limit here.

*Thanks for letting me ramble....*

[Dravin]

Moroni is referring to either the Large Plates of Nephi or the Plates of Mormon, correct? Not the Brass Plates? They never wrote in the Brass Plates, right?

You're correct, I was just sloppy with my reading.

[Son_of_Joseph]

I believe it was Ezra T. Benson that spoke on this matter when he said something like this...(amazingly authoritative quote to follow....)

"When will we recive further scripture from God? When we make full use of the scripture we already have."

It follows the eternal pattern of growth....we came here only when our further growth was not possible in heaven. We cannot expect more until we are at our limit here.

This idea that there is still a substantial amount of scripture to be recovered and translated interests and excites me because such a situation truly blesses the future. Edited May 9, 2010 by Son_of_Joseph

[Hemidakota]

From what I can recall, the hill we know as Cumorah has been thoroughly examined by ground penetrating radar, and other means in order to search for the remaining records, but no likely place has been found within that hill.

It must be another hill elsewhere, or we need better technology to find the spot within the hill we know about.

While it would be amazing to find the other records, they won't be found until God is ready for them to be found. Hopefully I get to see that day, but I won't cry if I don't.

In a related mater, what of the sealed portion of the golden plates? While Joseph was forbidden from reading them or translating them, we have been promised that the day will come when they will be translated. What could be done to hasten the day?

I believe it was Ezra T. Benson that spoke on this matter when he said something like this...(amazingly authoritative quote to follow....)

"When will we recive further scripture from God? When we make full use of the scripture we already have."

It follows the eternal pattern of growth....we came here only when our further growth was not possible in heaven. We cannot expect more until we are at our limit here.

*Thanks for letting me ramble....*

One of the three witness stated the same...(nearby hill).

It will come when Zion city is being built and through a moses type prophet who will have the same ability as Joseph did in his young age.

[Hemidakota]

Where did you hear or read that the Jaredite Plates went back to Adam? Are you saying the writings did, or the actual authors did?

So, what's your theory about the room where Mormon buried the Large Paltes of Nephi? Is it at the Cumorah we know? Or, some other hill called Cumorah? If so, where do you think it is?

Found in the Book of Ether...it was stated by Moroni. The only difference I cannot understand, I know he had two versions of the beginnings of Adam to the tower. But, what I am confused on what Moroni missed this. One had a greater clarity of details from to the tower vice the Pentateuch version. Or, maybe it was not important to him.