Questions about the Book of Mormon and DNA

[Noir]

This is a question that i have asked of the few Mormons I personally know, and have never got a satisfactory answer, and so i am asking it here.

The Book of Mormon is to be taken as scripture, i.e. it *is* true.

And i am sure you are all aware of the story that Native Americans are descended from Jews, and yet we are able to (and have) sequenced the DNA of countless Native American groups, and yet there is nothing in the DNA to indicate this is so, and more than that there is a pretty clear path from Eastern Asians to Native Americans.

So i was wondering how you personally resolve these two contrary statements. Either the Native Americans are descended from Jews or they're not. The book of Mormon says they do, advanced genetic sequencing says not...

Edit - btw wasn't sure what forum this should go in, but as its referring to scripture i thought here, sorry if not.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Noir

[MisterT]

The Nephites are extinct. How do you DNA sequence them? And nowhere in the scriptures does it say that all "Native Americans" are decendants of the Lamanites....

[NeuroTypical]

This is a question that i have asked of the few Mormons I personally know, and have never got a satisfactory answer, and so i am asking it here.

Well, a satisfactory answer involves unlearning a few falsehoods you've accepted as truth, so here goes.

And i am sure you are all aware of the story that Native Americans are descended from Jews, and yet we are able to (and have) sequenced the DNA of countless Native American groups, and yet there is nothing in the DNA to indicate this is so, and more than that there is a pretty clear path from Eastern Asians to Native Americans.

The answer lies in the question "what does Jewish DNA look like?" That question is answered as follows:

There is no such thing as "Jewish DNA". The Jews, although they tend to be homogenous through the millenia, still have a lot of diversity in their genes.

So that's a falsehood you need to unlearn in order to ever move forward in this area. No such thing as "Jewish DNA". There are Cohen markers, lots of haplotypes [sp?], etc - but no, you can't tell someone is Jewish by their DNA.

Another falsehood involves thinking that DNA science can help prove or disprove the BoM. It really can't.

Here's a big stack of articles you might want to persue, to help you understand what DNA is and isn't, and what the BoM claims are and aren't.

LM

Edited May 8, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Noir]

The Nephites are extinct. How do you DNA sequence them? And nowhere in the scriptures does it say that all "Native Americans" are decendants of the Lamanites....

You can extract DNA from bones. Thud how Neanderthal DNA has been sequenced ect.

And even if i grant onto you that not all of them where, surly many where, and there genes will be out there, given they are meant to have covered the continent.

[Noir]

Well, a satisfactory answer involves unlearning a few falsehoods you've accepted as truth, so here goes.

The answer lies in the question "what does Jewish DNA look like?" That question is answered as follows:

There is no such thing as "Jewish DNA". The Jews, although they tend to be homogenous through the millenia, still have a lot of diversity in their genes.

So that's a falsehood you need to unlearn in order to ever move forward in this area. No such thing as "Jewish DNA". There are Cohen markers, lots of haplotypes [sp?], etc - but no, you can't tell someone is Jewish by their DNA.

Another falsehood involves thinking that DNA science can help prove or disprove the BoM. It really can't.

Here's a big stack of articles you might want to persue, to help you understand what DNA is and isn't, and what the BoM claims are and aren't.

LM

Lol, from the first paragraph of the link you provided "We do not know what ancient Israelite or Nephite/Lamanite DNA looked like and modern Jewish populations may not reflect Israelite ancestry because of intermarriage and conversion over the past few thousand years."

That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how we interpret DNA.

And even again, if i grant to you that you can not tell what *is* jewish DNA (which i very much doubt) we can tell what is eastern Asian, and, er, is pretty prevalent in Native American DNA.

[MisterT]

Ok, smartypants. How many "Neanderthals" have had their DNA sequenced? One? Two? There isn't even any scientific concensus that those sequences are in fact neanderthals; there's a lot of debate about that.

And where, even once, has anyone claimed to have done mytochondrial DNA testing of Nephite bones???

You're obviously not searching for answers, but trying to further an agenda. Just say what you really want to say without the ruse and you'll get a better reception, I guarantee.

[Noir]

Ok, smartypants. How many "Neanderthals" have had their DNA sequenced? One? Two? There isn't even any scientific concensus that those sequences are in fact neanderthals; there's a lot of debate about that.

And where, even once, has anyone claimed to have done mytochondrial DNA testing of Nephite bones???

You're obviously not searching for answers, but trying to further an agenda. Just say what you really want to say without the ruse and you'll get a better reception, I guarantee.

I have not heard of such a debate, but if you say so, my source of the Neanderthal sequencing is from Sciencemag.org - A Draft Sequence of the Neandertal Genome -- Green et al. 328 (5979): 710 -- Science

I'm not saying anyone has on Nephite bones, I was merely pointing out that the fact they they were dead makes no difference as far as DNA testing goes.

I have no agenda to further, i laid my hand out clear when i joined the site, if you're going to stoop to such tosh so quickly i doubt i will learn much, but then atleast i tried.

[MisterT]

Tried to do what?

Your agenda was clear with the first post.

[Noir]

Tried to do what?

Your agenda was clear with the first post.

To ask reasonable questions without having accusations of agenda pushing thrust upon me. But no matter, i am not here to discuss such drivel, if that is all you wish to do then i ask you leave me alone.

Otherwise i'd be more than interested to see how well educated people are able to reconcile such a glaring discrepancy between data gained via genetic coding and a book which is said to be irrefutable truth.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Noir

[NeuroTypical]

Lol, from the first paragraph of the link you provided "We do not know what ancient Israelite or Nephite/Lamanite DNA looked like and modern Jewish populations may not reflect Israelite ancestry because of intermarriage and conversion over the past few thousand years."

That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how we interpret DNA.

Ok. So perhaps you could explain to us how we interpret DNA from your perspective? The links I provided you are written by folks who have done quite a bit of research on the issue. PhD's in various fields. One is a genuine DNA scientist who earns a living by doing DNA stuff. Perhaps you could start by giving us your credentials. Have any published papers on the subject of DNA we could look at?

I mean, I hear that you fundamentally disagree with what seem to us rational, scientific, correct opinions. Before we just drop our faith and accept your opinion, shouldn't we know a bit about why you believe what you do?

LM

[Noir]

Ok. So perhaps you could explain to us how we interpret DNA from your perspective? The links I provided you are written by folks who have done quite a bit of research on the issue. PhD's in various fields. One is a genuine DNA scientist who earns a living by doing DNA stuff. Perhaps you could start by giving us your credentials. Have any published papers on the subject of DNA we could look at?

I mean, I hear that you fundamentally disagree with what seem to us rational, scientific, correct opinions. Before we just drop our faith and accept your opinion, shouldn't we know a bit about why you believe what you do?

LM

To cut my answer short i will refer you to a video i found which first aroused my suspicions over the Mormon faith vs. Scientific reasoning.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Dravin
Link removed

[NeuroTypical]

So, you do realize that video was produced by a bunch of antimormon evangelicals, right? You discount scientists and PhD's, but you accept blindly the word of a piece put together by the attack dogs at "living hope ministries"?

Tell me, do you also take the word of Athiest-produced videos telling me about the falsehoods of the Bible?

LM

p.s. - I see you indicate you're from the UK. Do you have anything to do with the Reachout Trust countercult folks? I went the rounds with a poster on their forum a few years back on this subject. I did so well there, they deleted the whole thread. I could send it to you if you like. The jury's been out on this video for a few years, it might help you come to grips...

Edited May 8, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[MisterT]

To ask reasonable questions without having accusations of agenda pushing thrust upon me. But no matter, i am not here to discuss such drivel, if that is all you wish to do then i ask you leave me alone.

Otherwise i'd be more than interested to see how well educated people are able to reconcile such a glaring discrepancy between data gained via genetic coding and a book which is said to be irrefutable truth.

It is the tool of the intolerant to force intolerance through toleration of rediculous viewpoints and statements.

How do you know what my 'education' level is? How do you know that I do not have a University degree in a scientific field (which I do - Electrical Construction Technologies, plus 15 years of experience in the field as a design/build contractor and troubleshooter)???

Your ad-hominem attack is pathetic, as is your obvious anti-mormon rhetoric. It is obvious what your agenda is, has been, and will be.

I, therefore, ask you leave me and my religion alone, and instead find something else to occupy your obvioiusly abundunt recreational time...

[Dravin]

Considering the level of heat already present in the thread I'm not seeing this going anywhere good, as such I'm closing it.