Sons Of God, Daughters Of Men, & Giants

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Jason+Jan 5 2006, 05:39 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Setheus@Jan 5 2006, 06:11 PM

I've been to Rome. I've been to Vatican City. I've sat 8 rows back from Pope John Paul II.  I know Catholics.  I'm Italian.  I know what I mean.  "Hail Mary " ring any bells?   I know what I'm talking about.  Book knowledge and street knowledge are two very different animals Jason.

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Big deal. Your information is wrong. But you don't know the difference between "latria" and "dulia", do you?

Officially, worship of Mary is wrong. Do some catholics cross the line? Yes. Does that make it official doctrine? No.

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Isnt what you practice more signifigant than what you preach? And through a Catholic friend I know that certain pennance is done by praying to Mary. And dont tell me you've never heard someone pray to the Saint of their particular situation. I've watched nuns march through snow early in the morning from their house over to a shrine of Mary, kneel down before it and pray. I've SEEN this with my own eyes.

Time to get your nose out of the books and try looking up and noticing whats going on in the present.

You're like those Naval academy boys. Because the books and professors say its so, it must be so.... Welcome to the real world and real Catholic practice.

[Jason]

Setheus,

Let's start over, ok?

What most catholics are doing is called "veneration". Venerating a Saint implys that you're asking them to pray on your behalf. Catholics call this the "communion of the Saints". You're not praying to Mary, your're asking Mary (aka Theotokos) to intercede on your behalf.

Think of it as if you were asking your friends to pray for you.

That's what it's all about. Did you in all your observations actually bother to ask any of those people what they were doing?

It seems not.

PS. There's a reason why the pay grade for the Naval Academy Grads is well above yours.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Jason@Jan 5 2006, 06:01 PM

PS.  There's a reason why the pay grade for the Naval Academy Grads is well above yours. 

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I'm prior enlisted GM1. I participated in the Seaman to ADM program and graduated with a BS in business from NROTC. My pay grade is equal to all other LT's in the Navy. Comming from the Naval Academy doesnt make your pay grade higher it makes you think you know it all.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Setheus+Jan 5 2006, 08:36 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Jan 5 2006, 06:01 PM

PS.  There's a reason why the pay grade for the Naval Academy Grads is well above yours. 

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I'm prior enlisted GM1. I participated in the Seaman to ADM program and graduated with a BS in business from NROTC. My pay grade is equal to all other LT's in the Navy. Comming from the Naval Academy doesnt make your pay grade higher it makes you think you know it all.

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But as an enlisted man, you've probably maxed out. If you were coming out of the Academy as an Officer, you're pay grade would continue to rise.

And this was just a side thought. Not what we're really talking about.

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Jason+Jan 5 2006, 09:36 PM-->

Originally posted by Setheus@Jan 5 2006, 08:36 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Jan 5 2006, 06:01 PM

PS.  There's a reason why the pay grade for the Naval Academy Grads is well above yours. 

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I'm prior enlisted GM1. I participated in the Seaman to ADM program and graduated with a BS in business from NROTC. My pay grade is equal to all other LT's in the Navy. Comming from the Naval Academy doesnt make your pay grade higher it makes you think you know it all.

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But as an enlisted man, you've probably maxed out. If you were coming out of the Academy as an Officer, you're pay grade would continue to rise.

And this was just a side thought. Not what we're really talking about.

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GM1 is Gunners Mate Petty Officer 1st Class. That is a pay grade of E-5. I'm not enlisted anymore but if I was I could still advance to E-9 which is Master Chief Petty Officer. However, I am out of NROTC now *which is just like the Academy* and I am a LT now and will be up for LtCDR within a couple of years. So in short I have not "maxed" out on my pay.

I also earn sea pay, jump pay, dive pay, haz duty pay, and eod pay. This is ontop of my base pay of 0-3.

Now who's ignorant?

[Justlooking]

Ok, lets forget EVERYTHING we have been told by religions and get into the meat of the matter, the Bible. The term "sons of God" has been used to refer to angels in the old testament. Its a hebrew idiom.

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Remember angels can appear and seem human. Hbr 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Also remember in Sodom and Gamorrah, the men wanted to have relations with the angels sent to warn Lot. They assumed they were human men.

Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

[Setheus]

What about where the Savior and Only Begotten is refered to as "son of man"?

This blows your ship right out of the water.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jan 6 2006, 10:46 AM

Now who's ignorant?   

Touche'

It pays to get all the facts, eh?

[Justlooking]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jan 6 2006, 11:43 AM

What about where the Savior and Only Begotten is refered to as "son of man"?

This blows your ship right out of the water.

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"Son of man" is a different term which litterally translates human being from the hebrew. Jesus referred to Himself as son of man, because of what HE had to accomplish on earth in His human form.

"Son of man" litterally translates son of adam. ben 'adam

adam in hebrew is: man, mankind

"Son of man" means human being.

"Son of God" littereally translates to son of God. ben 'elohiym

elohiym in hebrew is: God in its plural form

Sons of God means angels.

ben means son

bath means daughter

so "bath adam" litterally means female human beings

Gen 6:2 That the (sons of God) ben 'elohiym

saw the (daughters of men) bath 'adam

that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

If we look at this verse from the hebrew we see the distinction from the two.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jan 6 2006, 10:43 AM

What about where the Savior and Only Begotten is refered to as "son of man"?

This blows your ship right out of the water.

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"Son of God" and "Son of Man" cannot be contradictory terms, because Jesus is called both.

I'll tell you what did blow my ship out of the water though. The footnote in my Full Life Study Bible (which happens to have a heavy Pentecostal and Assemblies of God flavor in its notes) contends that the sons of God are probably of the righteous line of Seth, because angels could not marry or have children.

I could still be right, but Seth, knowing that you have the full weight of tongues-talking Assemblies of God academia backing your view probably resolves the issue permenantly for you

Ah...theological debates make strange bedfollows

[Justlooking]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Jan 6 2006, 03:59 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Setheus@Jan 6 2006, 10:43 AM

What about where the Savior and Only Begotten is refered to as "son of man"?

This blows your ship right out of the water.

←

"Son of God" and "Son of Man" cannot be contradictory terms, because Jesus is called both.

I'll tell you what did blow my ship out of the water though. The footnote in my Full Life Study Bible (which happens to have a heavy Pentecostal and Assemblies of God flavor in its notes) contends that the sons of God are probably of the righteous line of Seth, because angels could not marry or have children.

I could still be right, but Seth, knowing that you have the full weight of tongues-talking Assemblies of God academia backing your view probably resolves the issue permenantly for you

Ah...theological debates make strange bedfollows

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Ok, if you do a search in the bible you will see that Jesus never calls Himself Son of God, but Son of man. That is due to His humility.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...98473-3287.html Son of God

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...598613-967.html Son of man

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Justlooking@Jan 6 2006, 06:51 PM

Ok, if you do a search in the bible you will see that Jesus never calls Himself Son of God, but Son of man. That is due to His humility.

I said he was called that Son of God, not that he used that term for himself.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son...

[Setheus]

Originally posted by Justlooking+Jan 6 2006, 06:51 PM-->

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Jan 6 2006, 03:59 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Setheus@Jan 6 2006, 10:43 AM

What about where the Savior and Only Begotten is refered to as "son of man"?

This blows your ship right out of the water.

←

"Son of God" and "Son of Man" cannot be contradictory terms, because Jesus is called both.

I'll tell you what did blow my ship out of the water though. The footnote in my Full Life Study Bible (which happens to have a heavy Pentecostal and Assemblies of God flavor in its notes) contends that the sons of God are probably of the righteous line of Seth, because angels could not marry or have children.

I could still be right, but Seth, knowing that you have the full weight of tongues-talking Assemblies of God academia backing your view probably resolves the issue permenantly for you

Ah...theological debates make strange bedfollows

←

Ok, if you do a search in the bible you will see that Jesus never calls Himself Son of God, but Son of man. That is due to His humility.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...98473-3287.html Son of God

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...598613-967.html Son of man

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was it humility or was it out of a deeper understanding of the truth? "Man of Holieness" ring a bell? God is "Man of Holieness" and Christ is "The Son of Man"

[Justlooking]

Originally posted by Setheus+Jan 7 2006, 01:43 AM-->

Originally posted by Justlooking@Jan 6 2006, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Jan 6 2006, 03:59 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Setheus@Jan 6 2006, 10:43 AM

What about where the Savior and Only Begotten is refered to as "son of man"?

This blows your ship right out of the water.

←

"Son of God" and "Son of Man" cannot be contradictory terms, because Jesus is called both.

I'll tell you what did blow my ship out of the water though. The footnote in my Full Life Study Bible (which happens to have a heavy Pentecostal and Assemblies of God flavor in its notes) contends that the sons of God are probably of the righteous line of Seth, because angels could not marry or have children.

I could still be right, but Seth, knowing that you have the full weight of tongues-talking Assemblies of God academia backing your view probably resolves the issue permenantly for you

Ah...theological debates make strange bedfollows

←

Ok, if you do a search in the bible you will see that Jesus never calls Himself Son of God, but Son of man. That is due to His humility.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...98473-3287.html Son of God

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...598613-967.html Son of man

←

was it humility or was it out of a deeper understanding of the truth? "Man of Holieness" ring a bell? God is "Man of Holieness" and Christ is "The Son of Man"

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Check the scriptures and see how JESUS refers to Himself. Its always in a humble and modest term as opposed to stating "I AM MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE YOU MUST OBEY!"

:)

His behavior and way of being was profesied long ago:

Mat 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

[Setheus]

dont you remember in the temple/synagog where he prounounced himself son of god? then had to slip away through the crowd...

[Ray]

Here are some references for those who don’t have them or know how to get them:

Bible Dictionary: Son of God

Topical Guide: Son of God

Bible Dictionary: Son of Man

Topical Guide: Son of Man

[Justlooking]

dont you remember in the temple/synagog where he prounounced himself son of god? then had to slip away through the crowd...

Luk 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. 22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son? 23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. 24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. 28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. 30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

This is the same passage I was referring to earlier. Again, Jesus in His humility doesnt say HE is the son of God, but a servant and prophet.

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; 11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.