Polygamy Possible In Canada?

[Outshined]

I would agree that the above discussion is hearsay to say the least. I don't know if I would classify it as gossip, no intention to do someone wrong, but definately hearsay.

In such a personal context, I would consider it gossip, especially in light of the fact that it has no basis in history.

When it can be found written in someones journal, someone that was there not heard a story then it would have more validity.

Agreed. That evidence points toward the story being false.

Let's please stop the personal attacks on one another about who is a gossip and who is not. It does not add to the forum.

No one has been accused of "being" anything, but there does seem to be an attempt to justify repetition of such tales as long as there is no official denial from the Church, which leaves a lot of criticism unchallenged. Gossip or just plain heresay, the story is unfit for repetition.

I've said my piece on the subject, as seen above. Thanks for weighing in.

[Guest Syble]

Enough said already, huh?

[Jason]

For the sake of the anti-homosexuality crowd here, I'll take my arguments to Open Forum. But as for this:

The United Nations confiscated WMD in Iraq.

No they didn't. That's the problem. And if you have any evidence to the contrary, i'd love to hear/see it.

[Outshined]

Enough said already, huh?

Yep, I've had my say, and I've grown as tired as you of the subject.

[Snow]

This is one wild hair of a thread.

But to put my two cents in on the gay sin; it is a sin. A very disturbing one.

How about married men marrying other married women?

If polygamy were legalized, homosexuals would lobby for the right to have more than one "same-sex partner" [minors].

Huh?

First, straight or gay, one can have as many sex partners as he or she chooses>

Second? What possible evidence do you have that polygamists or homosexuals and any more or less inclined towards minors than anyone else?

Besides, for someone opposed to homosexuality, you sure picked an overtly suggetive username.

"Unfounded assertion" is an oxymoron. Do you speak for everyone in this forum: "we've yet to meet him"?

You're misusing the word 'oxymoron.

Yes, he speaks for, if not all of us, then most of us who have been around for years and note that we don't have any polygamists on board or at least those who verbalize being so inclined.

[Guest Syble]

QUOTE(Syble @ Jan 17 2006, 12:48 PM)

This is one wild hair of a thread.

But to put my two cents in on the gay sin; it is a sin. A very disturbing one.

How about married men marrying other married women?

If you are pretending that you know what really happened with JS, forget it. LOL

You are missing some very important information and jumping to conclusions, which is second only to GOSSIPPING or just spreading malisious lies for a power trip.

So I guess you want to know what important information you are missing? Lots! JS's written explanation of what he was doing and why and how exactly it was to work eternally, just for small starters.

[Snow]

If you are pretending that you know what really happened with JS, forget it. LOL

You are missing some very important information and jumping to conclusions, which is second only to GOSSIPPING or just spreading malisious lies for a power trip.

So I guess you want to know what important information you are missing? Lots! JS's written explanation of what he was doing and why and how exactly it was to work eternally, just for small starters.

So how's that pretend supercilious condescension working out for you? Does it impress anyone?

I assume that you already knew JS was a polygamist and were challenging me about the polyandry. I guess you have now figured out that JS took already married women as his plural wives.

Now you seem to be saying that they is probably a good explanation for it and since I don’t know what it is, I am jumping to conclusions - HARDLY. I am not jumping to any conclusions. Joseph Smith took married women to be his plural wives.

Now - if you can (by the way... I know you won’t and can’t) show how I have spread any “malisious lies” then I will humble beg your forgiveness, but like I said... you can’t and you won’t.

[Fiannan]

1 multiple personality disorder + 1 fire breathing dragon = ?

I love math questions Aristotle. Would the answer be "Hitlery Clinton"?

[Fiannan]

member friend of mine had her daughter (16) suspended from school until she admitted to her class that her beliefs were homophobic. She was home schooled the rest of high school. The school board stood by the principle decision.

There is a disturbing trend among high schools in Canada that it’s cool to be bisexual.

Gee I wonder were that came from?

Of course, if that had been my second oldest son he would have got in front of the class, admitted it, waved a Confederate flag and (when his classmates were cheering) thanked the teacher for the opportunity to address the class on an important social issue. Just can't imagine where he gets it from...

As for the bisexual thing I have addressed the reasons for this before. The first is that (believe it or not) girls look at pornography on the internet as much as guys (maybe not as many hours, but they do access it as many times). And what is the most popular feature on general porn sites? Either threesomes (one male, two females) or two females. This not only provides temptation but also a form of legitimization via visual means. It also doesn't help that guys, even the most anti gay ones, generally consider female bisexuality a turn on. Combine this with educational programs designed to make gay okay, and the media (i.e. music videos, films -- anyone see Starsky and Hutch when the two cheerleaders were at Starsky's house and...? -- etc. which makes bisexual female sex seem hot and natural and it is no surprise this is the case.

[Fiannan]

Polygamist minded-men have a problem with nonpolygamist minded-women. Men fantasize about being with more than one woman simultaneously. Polygamy would feed right into this fantasy. Polygamists marry minors; homosexuals recruit minors. If polygamy were legalized, homosexuals would lobby for the right to have more than one "same-sex partner" [minors].

What is underneath the debate over Emma Smith/Eliza Snow has nothing to do with proving or disproving the validity of the story. It is about polygamist minded-men feeling threatened by non [anti] polygamist minded women.

My intention for debating this issue is a) demonstrate that the scriptures are not anit- polygamy, B) demonstrate that polygamy might serve a purpose in modern society, and c) open up discussion on the foundations of beliefs for and agaist polygamy. Just want to get that out there.

Now while I believe many men might fantasize about multiple sex partners at once (as do many if not most women) most people don't take that to the logical step of what it would be like to be married to all those people (in at least a living sense). Yeah, men might like two women, but not to have throughout life and not raising big families. Yeah, Mormon, orthodox Jewish and Muslim men might, but I doubt if your typical man would see this as a lifestyle choice. They are much too selfish.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but I would assume most LDS polygamists in the 19th. Century only had sex with one woman at a time. I believe Muslims would also only have coupling since it is considered a sin for a woman to see another woman's genitilia as it is a sin for a man to see another man naked. So that gets rid of the pornographic fantasy for both males and females if they are into the idea for the orgy factor.

Polygamist marry minors? True, Mohammed married a 9 year old, but did not have sex with her until she reached puberty. In most societies 100 years ago, even here, marriage to women in their mid-teens was not seen as strange (how old is the princess in Sleeping Beauty which was produced in 1960 -- that's right, 16, and no public outcry about her getting married). Now the idea of breeding women and selecting their husbands when they are 14 does not appeal to me in the least. Yet if a woman who is a few years older wants to marry then that's fine -- and it should not matter if it is to a polygamist or not once polygamy is legal here.

The LDS position on polygamy is interesting because if you read between the lines carefully there is no condemnation of polygamy as immoral -- only something the Church does not allow. And the theme of civil law is brought up time and time again. Once polygamy is legalized then what? The reasons given by president Woodruff on why it was best to give up polygamy was that God recognized that on a cost benefit analysis basis the Gospel could not have gone forth if the government had waged continued war on the LDS and confiscated all Church property and property belongiing to polygamists.

[Aristotle]

I would agree that the above discussion is hearsay to say the least. I don't know if I would classify it as gossip, no intention to do someone wrong, but definately hearsay.

When it can be found written in someones journal, someone that was there not heard a story then it would have more validity.

Let's please stop the personal attacks on one another about who is a gossip and who is not. It does not add to the forum.

Thank you

According to Webster's, hearsay means "that which one has been told but has not directly experienced". Since I directly experienced hearing Bruce McConkie's sister address this subject in a stake Relief Society meeting, it is not hearsay. Whatever information Bruce McConkie's sister quoted from is not known; nor do I know from what source Outshined has gathered his/her information to counter Bruce McConkie's sister's information. It would seem to me that unless either argument is documented officially by the Church, both stories presented by Outshined and Bruce McConkie's sister are based solely upon hearsay evidence, since those in question are dead and unable to verify either argument. The fact that I heard this information in a stake meeting is undisputable based upon personal testimony, not upon hearsay or gossip.

It isn't my style to attacked anyone; I merely responded to a post on polygamy.

For the sake of the anti-homosexuality crowd here, I'll take my arguments to Open Forum. But as for this:

<div class='quotemain'>

The United Nations confiscated WMD in Iraq.

No they didn't. That's the problem. And if you have any evidence to the contrary, i'd love to hear/see it.

You'll have to do some research into AOL's archives. I read it on AOL news online about a year after the the war in Iraq started.

1 multiple personality disorder + 1 fire breathing dragon = ?

I love math questions Aristotle. Would the answer be "Hitlery Clinton"?

LOL... good one! ^5, Fiannan

[Snow]

According to Webster's, hearsay means "that which one has been told but has not directly experienced". Since I directly experienced hearing Bruce McConkie's sister address this subject in a stake Relief Society meeting, it is not hearsay. Whatever information Bruce McConkie's sister quoted from is not known; nor do I know from what source Outshined has gathered his/her information to counter Bruce McConkie's sister's information. It would seem to me that unless either argument is documented officially by the Church, both stories presented by Outshined and Bruce McConkie's sister are based solely upon hearsay evidence, since those in question are dead and unable to verify either argument. The fact that I heard this information in a stake meeting is undisputable based upon personal testimony, not upon hearsay or gossip.

Ari,

That's is probably the third most idiotic thing I have ever heard. It sounds just like what a former mental patient of mine said. Irving Kanarek, one time attorney for Charles Manson once objected in court when the witness was asked to state his name. He objected on the grounds that the man first heard his name from his mother and it was therefor heresay.

You inane example is the exact definition of heresay. The person you claim was Sister McConkie had no personal knowledge of the incident and in fact was only repeating the rumors started 40 years after the fact by an antiMormon which you are now repeating, which makes it heresay still and false to boot.

Besides - I thought you were banned.

[Guest Syble]

Just for the record---

They did find an did announce a finding of things to create WMDs. But no complete read to shoot off WMDs.

[Aristotle]

Polygamist marry minors?

The LDS position on polygamy is interesting because if you read between the lines carefully there is no condemnation of polygamy as immoral -- only something the Church does not allow. And the theme of civil law is brought up time and time again. Once polygamy is legalized then what? The reasons given by president Woodruff on why it was best to give up polygamy was that God recognized that on a cost benefit analysis basis the Gospel could not have gone forth if the government had waged continued war on the LDS and confiscated all Church property and property belongiing to polygamists.

Polygamist colonies, headed up by cultist Jeffs (who has now fled to Mexico), have been established in AZ/Utah/TX. Evidence has shown how minor girls are married to middle aged men, raped and impregnated.

Pres. Hinckley addresses this problem in the following article:

What is the Church’s position on polygamy?

Gordon B. Hinckley, “What Are People Asking about Us?” Ensign, Nov. 1998, 70

"We are faced these days with many newspaper articles on this subject. This has arisen out of a case of alleged child abuse on the part of some of those practicing plural marriage.

I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members. They are in violation of the civil law. They know they are in violation of the law. They are subject to its penalties. The Church, of course, has no jurisdiction whatever in this matter.

If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church. An article of our faith is binding upon us. It states, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law” (A of F 1:12). One cannot obey the law and disobey the law at the same time.

There is no such thing as a “Mormon Fundamentalist.” It is a contradiction to use the two words together.

More than a century ago God clearly revealed unto His prophet Wilford Woodruff that the practice of plural marriage should be discontinued, which means that it is now against the law of God. Even in countries where civil or religious law allows polygamy, the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage."

Please note: If polygamy is against the law of God, it is immoral. The Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous; therefore, if one practices polygamy, they are excommunicated. Members are excommunicated due to immorality.

Just for the record---

They did find an did announce a finding of things to create WMDs. But no complete read to shoot off WMDs.

You're right...in fact, the U.N. buried the WMD that they confiscated.

[Fiannan]

More than a century ago God clearly revealed unto His prophet Wilford Woodruff that the practice of plural marriage should be discontinued, which means that it is now against the law of God. Even in countries where civil or religious law allows polygamy, the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage."

Please note: If polygamy is against the law of God, it is immoral. The Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous; therefore, if one practices polygamy, they are excommunicated. Members are excommunicated due to immorality.

How does the Church feel about animal sacrifice? It is against the law where I live. It is something that God has discontinued, but is it immoral?

[shanstress70]

Besides - I thought you were banned.

Ummm Ari, I think you forgot to address this...

[Jason]

Just for the record---

They did find an did announce a finding of things to create WMDs. But no complete read to shoot off WMDs.

Finding a hammer does not make it a house.

[Maureen]

...I assume that you already knew JS was a polygamist and were challenging me about the polyandry. I guess you have now figured out that JS took already married women as his plural wives.

I can even give one example:

Zina Huntington married Henry Jacobs in March 1841 and then married Joseph Smith later that year, October 1841; while she was pregnant with her first child.

M.

[Aristotle]

How does the Church feel about animal sacrifice? It is against the law where I live. It is something that God has discontinued, but is it immoral?

The official website to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is:

http://www.lds.org

You can search for the topics you're interested in.

[Outshined]

<div class='quotemain'>

Besides - I thought you were banned.

Ummm Ari, I think you forgot to address this...

You noticed that too?

B)

[Aristotle]

This morning, I've been doing some research in regard to the story that Bruce McConkie's sister told in our stake Relief Society meeting. I believe this sister's name is Margaret McConkie Pope. I'm in the process of trying to reach this sister to verify this information. Until I receive confirmation, I will refer to her as Sister McConkie.

As I recall, Gracia Jones was also mentioned at this stake meeting. I found several websites which referred to Emma "kicking Eliza down the stairs", but have yet to find anything in this regard on the Church's official website. My hope is to substantiate this information from Sister McConkie and find out her source. One thing is very evident. Why would a woman of such caliber, well respected in the Church, one who is sought as a speaker in the Church, risk her reputation by giving a ficticious account of Emma's life?

The following is an excerpt by Gracia Jones (re: http://www.lds.org). I emphasize Gracia's statement that "Emma suffered deeply hurt feelings because of it [plural marriage]".

- Mrs. A

My Great-Great-Grandmother, Emma Hale Smith

By Gracia N. Jones

...I discovered there was a different attitude about Emma. One day, when I was in a Relief Society room, I happened to notice a picture of a dark-haired woman. Curious, I moved closer. On the nameplate I read the inscription: “Emma Hale Smith—Elect Lady—First President of the Relief Society.” Fascinated to see at last a picture of my great-great-grandmother, I thought, How beautiful she is! Feelings of love for her filled me. But my thoughts were interrupted when someone behind me said, “My husband says they ought to take that woman’s picture off the wall of the church.” Stunned by the tone as much as by the words, I was troubled and wondered what prompted this judgment of Emma.

Later, while reading the book History of the Prophet Joseph Smith by His Mother, I found Lucy Mack Smith’s tribute to Emma: “I have never seen a woman in my life, who would endure every species of fatigue and hardship, from month to month, and from year to year, with that unflinching courage, zeal, and patience, which she has ever done; for I know that which she has had to endure—she has been tossed upon the ocean of uncertainty—she has breasted the storms of persecution, and buffeted the rage of men and devils, which would have borne down almost any other woman.”

I was struck forcibly by the contrast between the loving words of one who knew her and the judgment of one who did not.

Her great trial came when the prophet revealed to Emma that they would be required to live the ancient law of Abraham—plural marriage. Emma suffered deeply hurt feelings because of it. While she agreed with this doctrine at times, at other times she opposed it. Years later, Emma is purported to have denied that any such doctrine was ever introduced by her husband. In later years, Emma apparently never spoke of the sacred ordinances they had received. She would have been under covenant not to do so.

Careful and prayerful study was essential to my understanding that Joseph received true authority from the Lord and that there were those who tried to misuse authority, or take authority upon themselves in respect to this matter. In D&C 132:45, the Lord said, “For I have conferred upon you [Joseph] the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things.” On 5 October 1843, the Prophet gave instructions “to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives; for, according to the law, I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise.” 15 This point is confirmed in the Book of Mormon, Jacob 2:27, where we read, “There shall not any man among you have save it be one wife.” But in verse 30, we read, “If I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.” [Jacob 2:30]

Both the truth of scripture and the source of conflicting opinions was clear to me. I concluded that if Joseph was a prophet, and I knew that he was, then the doctrines he revealed were true and that succeeding prophets have also been given authority according to their times. Hence, I knew that in 1890, Wilford Woodruff was inspired, as prophet, seer, and revelator, to issue the Manifesto ending the practice of plural marriage in the Church.

[shanstress70]

Ari, I don't doubt that Emma was VERY unhappy with polygamy. And I don't know if she pushed this lady down the stairs. I like to think not. Even if you do get in touch with this lady and she sticks to her story, she is hearing it from someone else as well. She wasn't there. Even highly esteemed people sometimes make mistakes by believing something that is false.

[Aristotle]

Ari, I don't doubt that Emma was VERY unhappy with polygamy. And I don't know if she pushed this lady down the stairs. I like to think not. Even if you do get in touch with this lady and she sticks to her story, she is hearing it from someone else as well. She wasn't there. Even highly esteemed people sometimes make mistakes by believing something that is false.

Are you referring to me as Ari? Sorry, but my nickname is Mrs. A, and my husband is Aristotle...or Aris from Paris. ;-)

If you would care to challenge Sister McConkie yourself (providing it is the same sister who addressed our meeting), do a search on the internet under "Margaret McConkie Pope".

The sister who addressed our Relief Society meeting was probably in her 50's at the time, and this was sometime during the past 20 yrs. that she spoke at our meeting. So she may be elderly, but I sent an email nevertheless. (Her phone number was non-published.)

[Outshined]

Ari, I don't doubt that Emma was VERY unhappy with polygamy. And I don't know if she pushed this lady down the stairs. I like to think not. Even if you do get in touch with this lady and she sticks to her story, she is hearing it from someone else as well. She wasn't there. Even highly esteemed people sometimes make mistakes by believing something that is false.

I agree, and we've seen that the statements of people actually involved dispute the folk tale. Emma Smith did not push anyone down stairs. On that we can read Eliza Snow's journal and the statements of JS's own son. You won't find mention of it on a Church website because it is fabricated. In fact, you'll note that almost every mention of it on the web is in anti-Mormon context.

Who knows what led McConkie's sister to repeat the heresay? I'm sure she meant well in some way, but she did Emma no favors.

(And changing a screen name does not hide your identity, especially when you have been banned. Many boards frown on people trying to get around bans by registering with new names, in fact.)

[Aristotle]

It is understood that no official Church documentation has been provided thus far to either substantiate or unsubstantiate Sister McConkie's story re Emma.

Off topic, I have read the posts about not having more than one account, and the fact that many in this forum use aliases.