What Cometh Before The Second Coming?

[prisonchaplain]

In a string discussing religion and politics, Mrs. A pointed out to me that Mormons believe that Jesus will return to set up his kingdom. I believe she said it would take place in America.

By way of information, Christian churches of the last two centuries have foreseen to possible scenarios leading up to Christ's return:

1. Postmillenialism (mainstream Protestantism, and perhaps Catholicism--not sure on the RCC): It is the responsiblity of the church to build the kingdom of God on earth. Through education, enlightened politics, increasingly successful moral and ethical influence, the world would become so glorious that Christ would return in triumph, with congratulations to his Church for a job well done.

2. Premillenialism (Fundamentalist, evangelical, and other 'conservative' groups): The world will continue to degenerate "as it was in the days of Noah." The Church is to be salt and light, but understand that ultimately, Jesus will return, in judgement. The main duty of believers is not to build God's kingdom on earth, but to redeem as many souls as possible, so they might be spared the judgement, and enjoy eternal reward in the "new heaven and new earth."

Now Mormons have a reputation for being conservative, yet Mrs. A's post leads me to believe that the first scenario fits better into LDS eschatology. Can somebody enlighten me here? Also, I thought Jesus would return to Jerusalem. Will he come to America again, too...or instead?

[Ray]

If you want an understanding of the official Church doctrine on this issue, I suggest you do a search of the key words “Millennium”, “Jesus Christ, Millennial Reign”, “Kingdom of God, on Earth”, and “Millennium, Preparing a People for”.

And btw, those are hyperlinks to the scriptures only in the standard works, with much more to be found by searching the writings of latter-day prophets and apostles, at lds.org.

But if you simply want to hear a summary of personal beliefs from someone else who is LDS, I will say we should do all we can to show our support for our Lord and His work, while also showing support to the people He authorizes to help Him with His work.

Or in other words, to understand what our Lord requires from those who are members of our Lord’s church, I think it is first necessary to determine what our Lord requires from those who want to be members.

And btw, I believe our Lord requires more from us than merely a desire or belief that we are members.

[LionHeart]

According to the book of revelation, the second coming will be after the calamities that come with the opening of the seventh seal. In the D&C, Joseph Smith say's that the seven seals represent the seven thousand years that make up the life of the Earth. Also in the D&C, Joseph Smith say's that the Saviour's first coming was in the meridian of time; or during the fourth millenium.

I did some research on bilical chronology and found many conclusions as to how old the Earth really is acording to the bible; all ranging within 3500 years. But the only one I could find that placed Jesus's birth in the fourth millenium, places the calendar year of 2006 in the 5963 year of the world. This means that in the calendar year of 2043, the seventh seal will be opened; according to this figure. Now if the time periods given in the book of revelation are to be taken literally, that would place the Saviour's second coming around the calendar year of 2050; give or take.

[Ray]

I still don't understand why some people call it the "second" coming.

And btw, our Lord said that our Father in heaven will "cut short" the last days, so it could be any day now... now that the conditions are right.

[Aristotle]

In a string discussing religion and politics, Mrs. A pointed out to me that Mormons believe that Jesus will return to set up his kingdom. I believe she said it would take place in America.

Now Mormons have a reputation for being conservative, yet Mrs. A's post leads me to believe that the first scenario fits better into LDS eschatology. Can somebody enlighten me here? Also, I thought Jesus would return to Jerusalem. Will he come to America again, too...or instead?

Hi, prisonchaplain...

Please refer to the topic I started on America in the Gospel Discussion Board. If that doesn't answer all of your questions, please let me know and I'll do some more research on the subject if you'd like.

- Mrs. A

[Outshined]

HERE is some reading on the LDS teachings on the subject.

[LionHeart]

I still don't understand why some people call it the "second" coming.

And btw, our Lord said that our Father in heaven will "cut short" the last days, so it could be any day now... now that the conditions are right.

Could you elaborate on this further? If he comes a second time, would that not be a second coming? Or are you taking into consideration the times he came to Joseph Smith and others?

Also, what do you mean by "the conditions are right?"

[Ray]

Yes, I meant that I don’t consider it to be His “second” coming because I know He came several times to others after His resurrection, including the time He appeared to Mary, and then to His first 12 apostles, several times, and then to some of his disciples on the road to Emmaus, and then to Paul on the road to Damascus, and then to the righteous Nephites, several times, and then to Joseph Smith, several times… which makes it evident that His next return will not be His “second” coming… unless perhaps it is a reference to the second time He will come to live and reside on this Earth, and not merely to a second “coming”.

And by saying that the conditions are now right for our Lord’s “next” return, the one people often refer to when calling it a “second” coming, I meant that I believe the conditions are now right for that return, since the gospel has been restored and all the other “signs” are plainly evident… or at least it appears so to me.

And btw, keep in mind that some signs will not appear until He actually comes, while the other signs appear before His coming.

[prisonchaplain]

Yes, I meant that I don’t consider it to be His “second” coming because I know He came several times to others after His resurrection, including the time He appeared to Mary, and then to His first 12 apostles, several times, and then to some of his disciples on the road to Emmaus, and then to Paul on the road to Damascus, and then to the righteous Nephites, several times, and then to Joseph Smith, several times… which makes it evident that His next return will not be His “second” coming… unless perhaps it is a reference to the second time He will come to live and reside on this Earth, and not merely to a second “coming”.

Ray, you really don't know why non-LDS people speak of Christ's second coming? Here it is:

1. All the times that Jesus appeared to his followers after the resurrection are still considered part of his first advent. He had not yet returned to the Father. Nobody talked of him having left and returned. Rather, three days after his death ON THE EARTH, he rose--came back to life. He was STILL here--he had not yet left.

2. Whereas Orthodox Jews are still awaiting the first coming of the Messiah, we believe that He already came once, and will return--just as He promised.

3. Those outside of the LDS-faith tradition have never embraced the stories of Jesus time in America--so they would not have counted that appearance. Even if the stories are true, Jesus time in American would not seem to fall within the Messianic prophecies of the Old or New Testament--it was not the appearing they were looking towards--the one they were to be ready for.

BTW--I know, I still have a good deal of homework--Aristotle's America thread, and your link to the lds.org site. But, I hope this explains the mysterious use of "second coming" by non-LDS Christians.

[Jason]

"What Cometh Before The Second Coming?"

I think you need definitive proof that there was a "first coming" before you worry about this. Many books out there debunking the theory that Jesus was even a real person.

[Josie]

PC,

The LDS believe that Christ will return both to America and to Jerusalem. When he comes for the "last" time, if you want to call it that, or the "second coming" he will come in full glory and the righteous from the earth as well as in heaven will be with him. He will establish his Church with two headquarters, one in America, and one in Jerusalem.

The Second Coming will be after much calamity has befallen the earth and its people and the wicked have been basically wiped from the face of the earth. This is in the future and there is yet much to happen before this Second Coming. I am not saying it will be 1,000's of more years, but simply that as bad as things are in the world right now, they are going to get much worse and when the wicked have been destroyed, then Christ will return and reign in glory for 1,000 years upson the earth and at this time the work for the dead and the living will be done.

This 1,000 years will be a wonderful wonderful time for all the earth's people. There will be no murder or terrible wickedness like that has always existed on the earth. Man will live to the age of 100 with no illness and be changed without tasting death as we know it. It will be a wonderful time, that I am sure we cannot imagine now.

Also, you were talking about Christ's several appearances after his death. You are right, we do know that when he first appeared to Mary and some of the others, he had not been to his father yet. He told them not to touch him, because he had not yet been to his Father. But when he was with the apostles and Thomas came in and did not believe it was him, he told him to touch him and see. So at that point he had been to his Father. He could not allow himself to be touched in his state until he had seen his Father. So he had to have been to his Father before he saw Thomas.

But the Second Coming that we all look forward to will be his coming to dwell upon the earth in glory. That will be the time that all have looked for from the beginning of time.

[Ray]

An excellent post with some excellent thoughts, Josie. But again, I still don't know why people refer to it as the "second" coming, because it will not be the second time He has come, nor will it be the second time that He has come from our Father. And yes, I do know that the "second coming" refers to the "second time" He will come to live and reside on Earth.

Anyway, I'm hoping that with time that term will be dropped in place of a more proper term , kinda like how we have replaced the term "pre-existence" with "pre-mortal", which also did not make sense because that term inidcated that we did NOT exist before we came here... which we [LDS] all know is not right.

[Ray]

The LDS believe that Christ will return both to America and to Jerusalem. When he comes for the "last" time, if you want to call it that, or the "second coming" he will come in full glory and the righteous from the earth as well as in heaven will be with him. He will establish his Church with two headquarters, one in America, and one in Jerusalem.

And btw, His church has already been established here on Earth several times, so when our Lord comes again He will only be re-establishing or re-structuring His church which is now headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, in the United States of America.

[prisonchaplain]

PC,

The LDS believe that Christ will return both to America and to Jerusalem. When he comes for the "last" time, if you want to call it that, or the "second coming" he will come in full glory and the righteous from the earth as well as in heaven will be with him. He will establish his Church with two headquarters, one in America, and one in Jerusalem.

The Second Coming will be after much calamity has befallen the earth and its people and the wicked have been basically wiped from the face of the earth. This is in the future and there is yet much to happen before this Second Coming. I am not saying it will be 1,000's of more years, but simply that as bad as things are in the world right now, they are going to get much worse and when the wicked have been destroyed, then Christ will return and reign in glory for 1,000 years upson the earth and at this time the work for the dead and the living will be done.

This 1,000 years will be a wonderful wonderful time for all the earth's people. There will be no murder or terrible wickedness like that has always existed on the earth. Man will live to the age of 100 with no illness and be changed without tasting death as we know it. It will be a wonderful time, that I am sure we cannot imagine now.

Also, you were talking about Christ's several appearances after his death. You are right, we do know that when he first appeared to Mary and some of the others, he had not been to his father yet. He told them not to touch him, because he had not yet been to his Father. But when he was with the apostles and Thomas came in and did not believe it was him, he told him to touch him and see. So at that point he had been to his Father. He could not allow himself to be touched in his state until he had seen his Father. So he had to have been to his Father before he saw Thomas.

But the Second Coming that we all look forward to will be his coming to dwell upon the earth in glory. That will be the time that all have looked for from the beginning of time.

Thank you, Josie. I'll still read Aristotle's thread, and Ray's lds.org references--especially the latter since it would be 'official'--but you pretty much gave me the summary as was looking for!

My only question mark on your analysis is that I've not heard is that Jesus told Mary and others not to touch him because he had not been to the Father. In fact, I found the following account:

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Then Jesus said unto them, [Be not afraid: go tell my bretheren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me. Matthew 28:9-10

I've never heard before that Jesus went to the Father in heaven after the resurrection, then came back for a few days, then left again. I'm not sure this matters much, but the Matthew reference seems to indicate that the women did indeed touch him--and worship him.

PC,

This is in the future and there is yet much to happen before this Second Coming. I am not saying it will be 1,000's of more years, but simply that as bad as things are in the world right now, they are going to get much worse and when the wicked have been destroyed, then Christ will return and reign in glory for 1,000 years upson the earth and at this time the work for the dead and the living will be done.

I've highlighted the part of this statement that concerns me. We teach believers that NOTHING more has to happen before the time of the Great Tribulation and the anti-Christ. Jesus said He will come "like a thief in the night." He will come "in the twinkling of an eye." He will come when people do not expect him.

Quite frankly, I told my parishioners in 1999 that I did not expect the rapture of the church, or the great tribulation to begin that year, or the next. The End Times were hyped during those two years. I told them to wait a few years, and watch people turn away from concern about the End Times. Sure enough, we have crazy things happening in the Middle East, and Russia seeming to assend once again. China is clearly becoming a serious world power--one with an overt policy of atheism. Yet, we hear much less discussion about the End Times. This is the kind of time when Jesus could initiate the end times scenario that has been planned out from the beginning.

[Josie]

PC,

Here is the answer to your concerns:

John 20: 13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.

14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Hope that helps you understand why we believe as we do. If you continue reading, you will see it is after that that he appeared to the Apostles and allowed them to touch him.

[Josie]

"like a thief in the night."

We believe that Christ will come like a thief in the night to those who are not prepared for his second coming and not keeping his commandments. (according to the gospel of Josie - this is my understanding of our beliefs) When Christ told the story of the 10 Virgins, he is the bridegroom. He is the one they were waitting on. The fuel in their lamps? That is their faith, their service, their obedience. They are filling their fuel by keeping his commandments, reading the scriptures, increasing their testimony and faith, doing good to all men, etc...

When the Lord comes again, is our lamp going to be half full? Or is it going to be full to the top? If we are not living the commandments and doing the things we are suppose to, then we are not going to be prepared and not going to be ready and not going to be with him...

There is still much to happen before the Lord comes again. We will see more devastation yet, than we can even imagine. There will be many good things to happen too. Can't chalk everyone up to trouble and gloom, the Lord is always blessing us. There is so much good in our world if we will just look for it.

[prisonchaplain]

PC,

Here is the answer to your concerns:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Hope that helps you understand why we believe as we do. If you continue reading, you will see it is after that that he appeared to the Apostles and allowed them to touch him.

Comments (mostly from Wycliff's Commentary--but he agrees with me):

1. The Greek rendoring of "touch me not" might better read "Stop clinging to me." Indeed, the New International Version reads, (John 20:17) Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (NIV)

See also: John 20:17 in The Message translation:

Jesus said, "Don't cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, my God and your God.' "

2. Wycliff notes that Jesus did not rebuke the other woman for holding his feet (Matthew 28:9).

Conclusion: Jesus is gently informing Mary that the old relationship with him has changed. He is now glorified. She must not cling to the "man" Jesus, but now to King Jesus, the Messiah.

I only explain this because I had never before heard such an interpretation of Jesus' statement to the women--reading into it the whole idea that he was not yet in a form to be touched, that he had to go to heaven and see his Dad first.

Interest ideas. Thanks for sharing.

[Josie]

PC,

As you know, we accept the King James version only as our scripture, and we do take that scripture literally. We believe that between the time he saw Mary alone in that scripture and when he was later allowing people to touch him, he had ascended to his Father and then returned.

Christ would not have rebuked Mary. He knew her love for him, and I believe that he has a greater love for us than we can even begin to comprehend or understand. I also believe He came to Mary, because he understood her love and mourning and wanted her to know that she did not have to mourn any longer, he was alive and fine. He also wanted her to prepare the Apostles for his return to them.

Remember, they just went back to doing whatever they had done before when he was killed. They did not know what to do with him gone, because their understanding was so weak, and they went back to their fishing boats, or whatever they had done before. If Christ had not returned and taught them all his work would have been lost and for naught. Christ had to help them understand what all his teaching had led up to and their duties.

[Sugarbay]

Exactly what is happening right now in the world. Read the scriptures.

B)

[Ray]

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PC,

Here is the answer to your concerns:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Hope that helps you understand why we believe as we do. If you continue reading, you will see it is after that that he appeared to the Apostles and allowed them to touch him.

Comments (mostly from Wycliff's Commentary--but he agrees with me):

1. The Greek rendoring of "touch me not" might better read "Stop clinging to me." Indeed, the New International Version reads, (John 20:17) Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" (NIV)

See also: John 20:17 in The Message translation:

Jesus said, "Don't cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, my God and your God.' "

2. Wycliff notes that Jesus did not rebuke the other woman for holding his feet (Matthew 28:9).

Conclusion: Jesus is gently informing Mary that the old relationship with him has changed. He is now glorified. She must not cling to the "man" Jesus, but now to King Jesus, the Messiah.

I only explain this because I had never before heard such an interpretation of Jesus' statement to the women--reading into it the whole idea that he was not yet in a form to be touched, that he had to go to heaven and see his Dad first.

Interest ideas. Thanks for sharing.

There are still a few ideas you didn’t address.

First, the fact that our Lord didn’t want Mary to touch him, or cling on to him, does not indicate that he was not in a “form” that could be touched, and that is not what I believe Josie was saying.

Second, our Lord told Mary to go tell his “brothers” that He was [going to] ascend to His Father, and “our” Father, which is the reason that He indicated for not wanting to be “touched” yet.

Third, the fact that our Lord DID allow others to touch and “handle” Him later, which indicates that He had already ascended to our Father, otherwise He would have also told those other people not to “touch” Him because He had not yet ascended to “our” Father.

And lastly, of the points I will mention, to get back to my other point, I can still see that it doesn’t make any sense to refer to our Lord’s next coming as his “second”… except in the sense that it will be the second time that He will come to live and reside on this Earth.

And btw, when you get all of this figured out in your own head, I hope you will also explain it to your "parishoners".

[Josie]

Ray,

The fact that Christ's body was was in a form or state that it could not be touched until he descended to his and our Father in heaven was exactly what I was addressing. I just did not explain it in those terms. That is the reason that Mary could not touch him. I just did not go into the reason for her not being able to touch Christ at that time.

Thank you for explaining that.

[Ray]

Hmm. Then at this moment I disagree with that point, because I can’t see any reason why the form of our Lord would not have been able to be touched after His resurrection… when His spirit rejoined His body. I believe He simply did not want to be touched at that time, because He had not yet ascended to our Father.

And btw, for those who don’t know, we [LDS] believe our Lord was in the spirit world during the 3 days before His resurrection… in case anyone is wondering where He was.

[Josie]

I am not sure that it is important to our salvation to know the reason for all things at this point in our progression. I do believe there was a reason that Christ could not be touched at that time, before his ascension and I am satisfied with that. I am sure he had good reason to ask that Mary not touch him at that particular time. I do not think that his relationship or feelings for Mary had anything to do with it.

But, this is not scripture, my own thoughts only, and I leave it there. When it is time we will know the truth of all things.

[Ray]

I am not sure that it is important to our salvation to know the reason for all things at this point in our progression. I do believe there was a reason that Christ could not be touched at that time, before his ascension and I am satisfied with that. I am sure he had good reason to ask that Mary not touch him at that particular time. I do not think that his relationship or feelings for Mary had anything to do with it.

But, this is not scripture, my own thoughts only, and I leave it there. When it is time we will know the truth of all things.

What can you imagine that would hold you back from knowing everything there is to know now?

Or in other words, do you believe our Lord needs to reveal all things to the whole world before He can reveal all things to you?

And btw, I know that our Lord reveals all things about the Church to our Prophet, but there are a lot of other things to know too.

[BenRaines]

Ray, to clarify I believe the Lord has revealed to the Prophets over the ages and the things that must be revealed to operate the church.

I don't believe that all keys of the Priesthood have been given to the Prophet. There is one key or authority that has been held back by the Lord and will be brought by him when he returns. That is the key of resurrection. Current Prophet, as I understand, does not hold that authority or key of the Priesthood.

Only what pertains to this generation and this dispensation and necessary to fulfil the current church's destiny is what the Prophet has.

In my opinion.