An Understanding Of Apostates

[Guest Syble]

I was suggesting they be publically answered...discredited if possible. FAIR is already working on this. They publish anti-mormon claims, and then attempt to discredit them. I believe that information found at FAIR or FARMS should be more widely available in books, magazines, etc. for people who are not proficient in the Internet. It would even be good to discuss FAIR's articles in Seminary classes.

Why don't you go to the expense of doing just that? Anyone wanting to know can know. I don't put my money out to play both sides of the road. I see a work of faith being turned into a circus by non believers like yourself. You never put a dime or effort into anything, but expect everyone else to put it out there for you as you direct it. Bullllll ony.

I agree. Some of us have received different answers than you, and neither of us can prove to the other who received the correct answer. I'm not going to attempt to change your mind about the truth of the Church. I am only trying to change your perception of apostates, which I think is limited to considering them immoral, as Cannon did in his article.

There is a difference between the immoral and the unbeliever.

Not alot. They both are looking in all the wrong places and getting all the wrong answers and blaming it on the other guy. It isn't moral to challenge the church the way you do. You are talking to us as if you are on the higher ground. You aren't. You are not in any position to order us around to satisfy yourself. Nor are you in a position to be telling us that morals and faith don't go hand in hand.

[Ray]

I was suggesting they be publically answered...discredited if possible. FAIR is already working on this. They publish anti-mormon claims, and then attempt to discredit them. I believe that information found at FAIR or FARMS should be more widely available in books, magazines, etc. for people who are not proficient in the Internet. It would even be good to discuss FAIR's articles in Seminary classes.

Why don't you go to the expense of doing just that? Anyone wanting to know can know. I don't put my money out to play both sides of the road. I see a work of faith being turned into a circus by non believers like yourself. You never put a dime or effort into anything, but expect everyone else to put it out there for you as you direct it. Bullllll ony.

I agree. Some of us have received different answers than you, and neither of us can prove to the other who received the correct answer. I'm not going to attempt to change your mind about the truth of the Church. I am only trying to change your perception of apostates, which I think is limited to considering them immoral, as Cannon did in his article.

There is a difference between the immoral and the unbeliever.

Not alot. They both are looking in all the wrong places and getting all the wrong answers and blaming it on the other guy. It isn't moral to challenge the church the way you do. You are talking to us as if you are on the higher ground. You aren't. You are not in any position to order us around to satisfy yourself. Nor are you in a position to be telling us that morals and faith don't go hand in hand.

Wow. That was beautiful!!! Now if I could just find a good smiley to go with it. :)

And btw, Unorthodox, while I also would not appreciate seeing my tithing funds being used to spread those lies, there is a LOT of good information that is being published in the official publications of the Church.... not to mention TONS of good books that are written, and being written, by leaders and strong members of our Church.

[Maureen]

Why don't you go to the expense of doing just that? Anyone wanting to know can know. I don't put my money out to play both sides of the road. I see a work of faith being turned into a circus by non believers like yourself. You never put a dime or effort into anything, but expect everyone else to put it out there for you as you direct it. Bullllll ony.

Not alot. They both are looking in all the wrong places and getting all the wrong answers and blaming it on the other guy. It isn't moral to challenge the church the way you do. You are talking to us as if you are on the higher ground. You aren't. You are not in any position to order us around to satisfy yourself. Nor are you in a position to be telling us that morals and faith don't go hand in hand.

Sounds like someone has spit in Syble's cornflakes - she's in an ornary mood. We must be reading Unorthodox differently because I think he's been presenting his opinions quite diplomatically. On the other hand you have been receiving his opinions with little grace. I can just imagine how many people you have led to the Lord with your lovely tone.

Syble you may think that because you are LDS and this is an LDS site that that gives you the right to be rude - it doesn't - everyone must play by the same rules.

M.

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

Why don't you go to the expense of doing just that? Anyone wanting to know can know. I don't put my money out to play both sides of the road. I see a work of faith being turned into a circus by non believers like yourself. You never put a dime or effort into anything, but expect everyone else to put it out there for you as you direct it. Bullllll ony.

Not alot. They both are looking in all the wrong places and getting all the wrong answers and blaming it on the other guy. It isn't moral to challenge the church the way you do. You are talking to us as if you are on the higher ground. You aren't. You are not in any position to order us around to satisfy yourself. Nor are you in a position to be telling us that morals and faith don't go hand in hand.

Sounds like someone has spit in Syble's cornflakes - she's in an ornary mood. We must be reading Unorthodox differently because I think he's been presenting his opinions quite diplomatically. On the other hand you have been receiving his opinions with little grace. I can just imagine how many people you have led to the Lord with your lovely tone.

Syble you may think that because you are LDS and this is an LDS site that that gives you the right to be rude - it doesn't - everyone must play by the same rules.

M.

Do the rules say we have to bend to what I consider rude and ignore it, becauase you have your own idea of what is rude. If speaking straight forward to people who believe they have the right to tell us how to run our church is rude, then what is it called when they try and tell us how to run our church????

I call it rude!!! Tell it to the wind darlin' your prejudice is showing and I say you are rude.

You said several rude things in your post to me. Do you want me to repeat them, hylight them, or what?

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Why don't you go to the expense of doing just that? Anyone wanting to know can know. I don't put my money out to play both sides of the road. I see a work of faith being turned into a circus by non believers like yourself. You never put a dime or effort into anything, but expect everyone else to put it out there for you as you direct it. Bullllll ony.

Not alot. They both are looking in all the wrong places and getting all the wrong answers and blaming it on the other guy. It isn't moral to challenge the church the way you do. You are talking to us as if you are on the higher ground. You aren't. You are not in any position to order us around to satisfy yourself. Nor are you in a position to be telling us that morals and faith don't go hand in hand.

Sounds like someone has spit in Syble's cornflakes - she's in an ornary mood. We must be reading Unorthodox differently because I think he's been presenting his opinions quite diplomatically. On the other hand you have been receiving his opinions with little grace. I can just imagine how many people you have led to the Lord with your lovely tone.

Syble you may think that because you are LDS and this is an LDS site that that gives you the right to be rude - it doesn't - everyone must play by the same rules.

M.

She said nothing that was rude. She simply said what she had to say without any of the sugar coating that we usually see around here.

[Guest Syble]

Thank you RAY!!!

[Guest Unorthodox]

I said I quit this thread, but you are making that very difficult to do, as I don't want to leave with your accusations going unanswered...

I was suggesting they be publically answered...discredited if possible. FAIR is already working on this. They publish anti-mormon claims, and then attempt to discredit them. I believe that information found at FAIR or FARMS should be more widely available in books, magazines, etc. for people who are not proficient in the Internet. It would even be good to discuss FAIR's articles in Seminary classes.

Why don't you go to the expense of doing just that? Anyone wanting to know can know.

How can someone want to know about something when they do not know it exists?

I don't put my money out to play both sides of the road. I see a work of faith being turned into a circus by non believers like yourself.

How would publishing FAIR materials outside the Internet where everyone can read them turn FAIR's work into a circus?

I am only suggesting the idea...I am not saying I plan to implement it. Actually, I don't need to. The trend towards openly discrediting anti-Mormons is already happening. It began with FAIR and FARMS on the Internet. It is happening with books like "Rough Stone Rolling". LDS scholars are introducing controversial information to people who would not go out of there way to find it. Introducing small bits of controversial information will serve to "innoculate" people, so that when the larger controversies surface, LDS people will be prepared for it and know how to deal with it. And those larger controversies WILL surface as more and more people get on the Internet, and then more LDS will learn there is more to Church history and doctrine than what is in the basic lesson manuals we read every Sunday. When that happens, FAIR/FARMs will have to expand to the Seminary classrooms and perhaps the chapels themselves.

If the Church is true, there will not be many people lost to apostacy...FAIR and FARMS will be able to discredit or clarify the controversial issues...not to mention that if the Church is true, prayers will be answered to explain away the controversies.

You never put a dime or effort into anything, but expect everyone else to put it out there for you as you direct it. Bullllll ony.

Now that is just another personal insult.

Just because I don't give money to the LDS Church doesn't mean that I don't put a dime or effort into anything. I pay my taxes. That money is going to the government and its military, helping build a better America and a better world. My efforts are going into making a better life for my family through my work as a good husband and father.

Don't judge me when you don't know me beyond a few of my message board posts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

I agree. Some of us have received different answers than you, and neither of us can prove to the other who received the correct answer. I'm not going to attempt to change your mind about the truth of the Church. I am only trying to change your perception of apostates, which I think is limited to considering them immoral, as Cannon did in his article.

There is a difference between the immoral and the unbeliever.

Not alot. They both are looking in all the wrong places and getting all the wrong answers and blaming it on the other guy. It isn't moral to challenge the church the way you do. You are talking to us as if you are on the higher ground. You aren't. You are not in any position to order us around to satisfy yourself. Nor are you in a position to be telling us that morals and faith don't go hand in hand.

Let me get this straight.

Unbelievers are looking in all the wrong places and getting all the wrong answers and blaming it on...who? The Church?

I can't speak for other unbelievers, but I can say that I get my information from mainly apologetic websites, such as FAIR.

As for blame...I have no one to blame but myself for my unbelief. Let me rephrase that...I have no one to THANK for my unbelief except myself. To me, my skepticism is a gift, in the same way you consider the Holy Ghost to be your gift.

Of course we cannot agree on this because you KNOW the Church is true.

I do not claim to have any knowledge of anything, except to say that I believe (not know) that my belief system...though not classifiable under any one religion...is adequate to make me a good person, and that there is nothing to fear in the afterlife.

It isn't moral to challenge the church the way you do.

I am not anti-Mormon. I believe the LDS Church has a right to exist. I agree with Article of Faith #11, which states that people should follow the dictates of their consciences in matters of faith.

All I have said in this thread is that

A. LDS should have more compassion for so-called apostates, and that Cannon's description of apostates was incomplete, as it labelled apostates as weak and immoral people, when in fact many are simply skeptics. That view is contrary to the teachings of Article 11, and I oppose it. Even if he was a true Prophet, in this case I would argue he was speaking as a fallible man.

B. LDS...and all people...should hold their faith up to scrutiny. They should challenge their own beliefs. If they can overcome the challenge, through prayer, or through logic, or reading apologetics, then they have a true testimony (and by the way, I am told that the Church encourages people to study all things).

How does this make me immoral or anti-Mormon?

And btw, Unorthodox, while I also would not appreciate seeing my tithing funds being used to spread those lies, there is a LOT of good information that is being published in the official publications of the Church.... not to mention TONS of good books that are written, and being written, by leaders and strong members of our Church.

Umm...FAIR and FARMS are liars?

FARMS is sponsered by BYU, and I am not sure, but I think they are as official as apologetics get in the LDS Church. I know FAIR is unofficial, but it uses FARMS articles and is definately Pro-LDS.

I'm sure there are lots of good books out there written by LDS people...I already mentioned Rough Stone Rolling, which I believe is the beginning of a great new trend of openly teaching Church history without overlooking the controversial elements.

Sounds like someone has spit in Syble's cornflakes - she's in an ornary mood. We must be reading Unorthodox differently because I think he's been presenting his opinions quite diplomatically.

Thank you, Maureen :)

[Guest Unorthodox]

Do the rules say we have to bend to what I consider rude and ignore it, becauase you have your own idea of what is rude. If speaking straight forward to people who believe they have the right to tell us how to run our church is rude, then what is it called when they try and tell us how to run our church????

I call it rude!!! Tell it to the wind darlin' your prejudice is showing and I say you are rude.

You said several rude things in your post to me. Do you want me to repeat them, hylight them, or what?

So when you said:

Tell it to the wind.

...you were not being rude? You were just speaking straight forward to me in response to my comment, which was:

The important thing is to keep discussion out in the open, hiding nothing and seeing who passes the test of faith. Then you will see who the REAL SAINTS are.

...which you considered rude because it sounded like I was telling you how to run your church?

I don't see it.

I never told you how to run your church.

I just suggested that by revealing all controversial information...by FAIR, which discredits anti-Mormon lies and clarifies controversial facts to make them faith-promoting...people can more effectively test the strength of their testimony.

[Maureen]

...And btw, Unorthodox, while I also would not appreciate seeing my tithing funds being used to spread those lies....

This is confusing Ray. You think that FAIR & FARMS spread lies, if so how? Their main purpose is to defend the LDS church.

M.

[Guest Unorthodox]

She said nothing that was rude. She simply said what she had to say without any of the sugar coating that we usually see around here.

Who has been making sugar coated comments around here?

[Guest Unorthodox]

Ray & Syble:

I am giving you the last word in these debates.

If you want to logically answer my suggestions...or even explain how through prayer you know my suggestions are wrong, then I welcome your comments.

But I am quitting this thread on the condition that no one makes another personal insult towards me concerning my morality or integrity.

If you can't live up to that expectation, then don't blame me for coming back here.

[Ray]

Unorthodox: How can someone want to know about something when they do not know it exists?

Heh, by wanting to know more than what they know, and knowing that knowledge is out there.

…and then more LDS will learn there is more to Church history and doctrine than what is in the basic lesson manuals we read every Sunday.

Heh, you might not have caught onto this idea, since you were still pretty much new to the Church when you joined, but I think most members KNOW there is more information out there about the Church, and I also think members are constantly trying to learn.

But yes, there are also some people who do have the idea that they learned all they need to know in Sunday School.

Heh, which reminds me of a fairly new book with a title like that.

If the Church is true, there will not be many people lost to apostacy...FAIR and FARMS will be able to discredit or clarify the controversial issues...not to mention that if the Church is true, prayers will be answered to explain away the controversies.

Heh, I fear you greatly underestimate the sneakiness of our adversary.

Btw, that’s a hacked up line from Mr. Deeds.

Syble: You never put a dime or effort into anything, but expect everyone else to put it out there for you as you direct it. Bullllll ony.

Unorthodox: Now that is just another personal insult

I don’t think so. I think she just has the idea that you haven’t paid a dime to people who write books in support of the Church, yet you expect other people to write books for you, according to how you think their books should be written.

And btw, the Church doesn’t get money from the government.

Unorthodox: Let me get this straight.

Unbelievers are looking in all the wrong places and getting all the wrong answers and blaming it on...who? The Church?

I can't speak for other unbelievers, but I can say that I get my information from mainly apologetic websites, such as FAIR.

The only source you should trust for information about the Church, or the gospel, or about God, is God, because He is the source of that knowledge.

And btw, though I do now trust the leaders of our Church, I only do so with assurances from God.

Unorthodox: As for blame...I have no one to blame but myself for my unbelief. Let me rephrase that...I have no one to THANK for my unbelief except myself. To me, my skepticism is a gift, in the same way you consider the Holy Ghost to be your gift.

Heh, to each their own, I guess. I’d rather be thankful for knowing the truth.

Unorthodox: I do not claim to have any knowledge of anything, except to say that I believe (not know) that my belief system...though not classifiable under any one religion...is adequate to make me a good person, and that there is nothing to fear in the afterlife.

I think you’re a pretty good or “decent” person too, Unorthodox, but if Hitler believed he was a good person it wouldn’t mean that God would be happy with what he did.

Or in other words, instead of forming our opinion of ourselves by what we think about ourselves, I think we should see how we compare with God.

Unorthodox: Cannon's description of apostates was incomplete, as it labeled apostates as weak and immoral people, when in fact many are simply skeptics. That view is contrary to the teachings of Article 11, and I oppose it. Even if he was a true Prophet, in this case I would argue he was speaking as a fallible man.

If you’ll read the article again, and perhaps some more writings from President Cannon, you may change your opinion about him. And btw, my assessment of what he was saying, and what the author of that article was saying, is quite a bit different from yours.

Unorthodox: ... LDS...and all people...should hold their faith up to scrutiny. They should challenge their own beliefs. If they can overcome the challenge, through prayer, or through logic, or reading apologetics, then they have a true testimony (and by the way, I am told that the Church encourages people to study all things).

Yes, I agree that we should think carefully about everything we are told or assured to be true, no matter who tells us or assures us. And the more I think about my assurances from God, the more I know He is true.

Unorthodox: How does this [my outlook on life?] make me immoral or anti-Mormon?

Your beliefs have nothing to do with how moral you are, because your morals are determined by what you do.

And btw, to be “anti” anything is to be against or opposed to things personally in your own life, regardless of what other people do.

Ray: And btw, Unorthodox, while I also would not appreciate seeing my tithing funds being used to spread those lies, there is a LOT of good information that is being published in the official publications of the Church.... not to mention TONS of good books that are written, and being written, by leaders and strong members of our Church.

Unorthodox: Umm...FAIR and FARMS are liars?

Heh, no. Do you really think that was my point?

I was saying that slanderous information from people who publish anti-“Mormon” information should not receive any attention from the Church. Or do you really not know of a better way to learn the truth than to have to hear the garbage too?

Okay, now. In my closing remarks to you here, I will simply say that without Faith in God, you will never know who to believe.

So stop talking and start praying, Man! The truth is that easy to Find!

[Guest Syble]

You have danced a weaving winding dance Unorthodox, but you really haven't said anything. Maybe re-reading your own post you will see that.

[Maureen]

I was saying that slanderous information from people who publish anti-“Mormon” information should not receive any attention from the Church. Or do you really not know of a better way to learn the truth than to have to hear the garbage too?

Well it does with blessings from your prophet.

FARMS Review section deals with reviewing a good amount of what you might call "anti-mormon" publications:

The principal purpose of the FARMS Review is to help serious readers make informed choices and judgments about books published, primarily on the Book of Mormon…

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/reviewmain.php

Established as a private research organization in 1979, FARMS became part of BYU in 1997. At the time, Gordon B. Hinckley, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and chairman of the BYU Board of Trustees, observed that, "FARMS represents the efforts of sincere and dedicated scholars. I wish to express my strong congratulations and appreciation for those who started this effort and who have shepherded it to this point." He concluded by noting that he sees, "a bright future for this effort now through the university."

http://farms.byu.edu/aboutfarms.php

M.

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

I was saying that slanderous information from people who publish anti-“Mormon” information should not receive any attention from the Church. Or do you really not know of a better way to learn the truth than to have to hear the garbage too?

Well it does with blessings from your prophet.

FARMS Review section deals with reviewing a good amount of what you might call "anti-mormon" publications:

The principal purpose of the FARMS Review is to help serious readers make informed choices and judgments about books published, primarily on the Book of Mormon…

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/reviewmain.php

Established as a private research organization in 1979, FARMS became part of BYU in 1997. At the time, Gordon B. Hinckley, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and chairman of the BYU Board of Trustees, observed that, "FARMS represents the efforts of sincere and dedicated scholars. I wish to express my strong congratulations and appreciation for those who started this effort and who have shepherded it to this point." He concluded by noting that he sees, "a bright future for this effort now through the university."

http://farms.byu.edu/aboutfarms.php

M.

Twister pro are you?

Where is the correlation between research to answer anti-material and just putting it out there for those who are not deep searches for more answers? I see no where the endorsement of pushing information on those who are not spiritually ready or interested enough to search it out themselves.

[sgallan]

Syble and Ray.....

Honestly, I wouldn't except an invite to your respective Ward's from either one of you (and I have excepted a couple of invites in the past for baptisms, baby blessings, and missionary returns from friends). Given your attitudes why would I? To be abused. Heck if I wanted that I could go to a Southern Baptist congragation..... they think even less of my type than you do.

[Guest Syble]

Syble and Ray.....

Honestly, I wouldn't except an invite to your respective Ward's from either one of you (and I have excepted a couple of invites in the past for baptisms, baby blessings, and missionary returns from friends). Given your attitudes why would I? To be abused. Heck if I wanted that I could go to a Southern Baptist congragation..... they think even less of my type than you do.

Its your choice if I had extended such an invite. But seeing that I haven't, it isn't your choice.

[sgallan]

Its your choice if I had extended such an invite. But seeing that I haven't, it isn't your choice.

That's cool. I pretty much figured you weren't interested in having anybody not like you in your religion.

Oh.... and it is all good.

I am not interested in being hated up front by folks like you....

...and you are not interested in having folks like me in your religion.

I do believe we have a meeting of the minds here.

[Guest Syble]

It is actually you who do not want people like me in your life.

[sgallan]

I agree...

.... see, I told you we had a meeting of minds.

[Guest Syble]

I agree...

.... see, I told you we had a meeting of minds.

[Maureen]

Where is the correlation between research to answer anti-material and just putting it out there for those who are not deep searches for more answers? I see no where the endorsement of pushing information on those who are not spiritually ready or interested enough to search it out themselves.

I think I understand your problem Syble – your reading comprehension skills are lacking. I’m going to try a paraphrase Unorthodox’s posts just to see if a grain of it might sink into that brain of yours.

The whole point of Unorthodox’s posts was that if the LDS church truly wants to prepare its members to defend their faith then do so in church settings like SS and Seminary classes and use the research that FAIR and FARMS has already provided to help teach about anti-Mormon material. He never said anything about let the members read the anti-Mormon material and then let them fend for themselves. If you are a fair person Syble you could re-read his posts and see that for yourself. But obviously you are of the mind that to defend ones faith against “anti” material with Church back-up is such a bad idea, that is just easier to attack the unbeliever who presented the idea instead of giving it some thought to its merits.

M.

[Aristotle]

If you are a fair person Syble you could re-read his posts and see that for yourself. But obviously you are of the mind that to defend ones faith against “anti” material with Church back-up is such a bad idea, that is just easier to attack the unbeliever who presented the idea instead of giving it some thought to its merits.

M.

Hi, Maureen, and all...

Please permit me, if you will, to play devil's advocate for a moment. When I joined the forum before, as "Ari", I presented some hard core evidence about certain musicians being involved in satanism. I was attacked vehemently for simply opening the door to this information. So, it would seem that many of us have sensitive [sacred] issues which we wish left undisturbed. I think it would be important for us to look at our approach on things and not attack the messenger. If we choose not to believe certain information shared in this forum, that's ok. But to become easily offended and attack someone who may have had good intentions initially for presenting the information is hurtful and unnecessary. Cruelty is never warranted under any circumstance. I think the problem herein lies in the fact that we don't know one another well enough to judge one's heart. Communication is the key! Thanks for listening, and no offense intended.

- Mrs. A

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

I was saying that slanderous information from people who publish anti-“Mormon” information should not receive any attention from the Church. Or do you really not know of a better way to learn the truth than to have to hear the garbage too?

Well it does with blessings from your prophet.

FARMS Review section deals with reviewing a good amount of what you might call "anti-mormon" publications:

The principal purpose of the FARMS Review is to help serious readers make informed choices and judgments about books published, primarily on the Book of Mormon…

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/reviewmain.php

Established as a private research organization in 1979, FARMS became part of BYU in 1997. At the time, Gordon B. Hinckley, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and chairman of the BYU Board of Trustees, observed that, "FARMS represents the efforts of sincere and dedicated scholars. I wish to express my strong congratulations and appreciation for those who started this effort and who have shepherded it to this point." He concluded by noting that he sees, "a bright future for this effort now through the university."

http://farms.byu.edu/aboutfarms.php

M.

Heh, why do some people seem to have so much trouble understanding what I am saying?

I meant that members of the Church should not focus their attention on slanderous information from people who publish anti-Mormon information, because there are truthful sources of information which are published by people who know the truth, without the slanderous viewpoints!

Or in other words, I have learned more about the Church and the gospel by studying the Church and the gospel from the sources in the Church, than I ever would have learned by reading all the slanderous information out there about the Church and the gospel from people who make “slanderous” statements, and by having obtained so much more information about the Church and the gospel from the sources in the Church, I can detect the errors in slanderous information when I see it… by a better understanding of the truth.

For instance, instead of reading about how “Mormons” are not “Christians”, I have learned more about how “Mormons” truly are “Christians” by reading the information from sources in the Church, including myself, than I ever would have learned by reading all of the information out there about how “Mormons” are not “Christians”, and by knowing what I know I can also detect the “slander” when I see it.

Or in other words, when we want to know the truth about anything, we should all try to go to the source… so when we want to know about God, we should try to go to Him and not Satan.

[Aristotle]

Amen, Ray! I understand you perfectly. ;-)