Did Adam and Eve...

[Javajot]

...have bellybuttons?

Yes they did and do. Every human body did, does and will.

[Justice]

Hemi posted some very worthwhile quotes a while back about spirits and spirit matter. It might be useful to look those up. There were several from Joseph Smith that you can't find in scriptures and can alter one's perception about what spirits are.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Because our identity is not a mortal phenomenon. What I am trying to point out is that the identity of our person is not from here. Each of us has a unique identity that is associated with our spirits, even prior to receiving bodies of flesh. The blemishes of mortality aside, the physical body has taken on the unique appearance of our immortal spirit and has added physical flesh and bone to our identity. Like putting on a tight glove, which conforms to the shape and characteristics of our hand.

I don't know why you think that identity is bad or that it should ever change. Our identity cannot be changed any more than our gender can be changed, which is itself an eternal part of our true identity.

If you could see all the spirits that are still waiting to enter mortality, you would see each as a unique individual, in the form of men and women, each with their own identity. They are in their prime, having developed over an unspecified amount of eternity until they have reached their full stature as spirits. When our resurrected bodies are regenerated fully, they will conform to the perfect likeness of our own spirit.

Deformity will be removed; defects will be eliminated, and men and women shall attain to the perfection of their spirits, to the perfection that God designed in the beginning. (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Jesus Christ Redeems All Mankind from Temporal Death)

Obviously you have to come to terms with these things however you will, according to the direction your conscience takes you. But that is what I am saying in a nutshell.

Regards,

Vanhin

I am in complete agreement with our spirits having unique identities and that those will continue into the next life. I also agree that when we resurrect our bodies will take on the likeness of our own spirit. The point that we differ on is how we view the relative influence of the spirit in this life. I tend to believe that the relative influence of the spirit on our spirit-body dual being persona is very small in this existence. I say that because of scriptures that say the natural man is an enemy to God and similar versus. In other words, it takes work and endurance and patience to listen to the still small voice. That is how I see the spirits influence in this life, it is not a major influence, it is small, it is subtle and if one didn't work at listening to it, it may not even reveal itself, the natural man would win out.

If that is the case, then in the next life, our tendencies (personality) will dramatically change without having to battle that natural man, "come unto my rest."

The other evidence for that is think about what happens to someone who has a brain injury like, Pheneas Gage. With a tampening iron through the frontal lobe his personality changed. So did the physical injury also injure his spirit? I don't think so, but if his spirit was the major force in driving his personality than it would still be the same after such an injury, it would still be there. Or, think of how a person changes with Alzheimers disease, a slow process that kills brain cells little by little. Did that individuals spirit also get injured by Alzheimers? I don't think so, it is still there, under it all. But that shows you how much ones "personality" comes from the body versus the spirit in this life.

If our personality was mostly from our spirit in this life, there would be very little evil because we all chose Gods plan before coming here. We all chose good over evil plans previously, that is in our nature. The experience of evil comes from the body. We learned about it, but there is a difference between having heard about it versus "knowledge of good and evil." We need that dual being pull to be tested. If no effort is given, our body's carnal drives will win out over our spiritual 'personality', it will then become part of our spiritual personality when this life is over as it is seared into what we previously knew. But the resting state of our current personality and mannerisms etc is not exactly (and in my mind still, not really close) to our pre-earth personality because the carnal, natural mind will win out if we put no effort into overcoming it. To me, by definition, that means the carnal influences and tendencies are stronger than the spirit by default, without help from Jesus and the gospel. When we live the gospel and are listening to the spirit constantly then we more approximate our pre-earth personality but this is difficult to do and I think most fall way short of that, even those that are "faithful" members.

When you take a test and the question is something along the lines of "If Jack traveled down train A going 40 miles an hour and Jill took Highway B going 65 miles an hour to their destination, how much sooner would Jill get there before Jack?" That does not mean that in real life you will encounter Jack and Jill or Train A or Highway B. Likewise, this life is a test and under testing situations the 'questions' approximate real life but its the underlying lessons that we are really after, which is faith and obedience and ability to listen to the spirit more than carnal influences. As the parable suggests, we are given talents and abilities, i.e. - we didn't develop them on our own, they are not part of our spiritual being, they were given for this life, for this test.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[Vanhin]

I am in complete agreement with our spirits having unique identities and that those will continue into the next life. I also agree that when we resurrect our bodies will take on the likeness of our own spirit. The point that we differ on is how we view the relative influence of the spirit in this life.

Well, seeing as I have really been addressing the matter of our identity in the various phases of our life from pre-mortal to immortal, and beyond, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that we differ on how we view the relative influence of the spirit in mortality.

I tend to believe that the relative influence of the spirit on our spirit-body dual being persona is very small in this existence. I say that because of scriptures that say the natural man is an enemy to God and similar versus. In other words, it takes work and endurance and patience to listen to the still small voice. That is how I see the spirits influence in this life, it is not a major influence, it is small, it is subtle and if one didn't work at listening to it, it may not even reveal itself, the natural man would win out.

I have no major quarrels with what you are saying in the above paragraph. Have I wrote something that made you think otherwise? I thought our main difference had to do with resurrected beings in the eternities and the status of individual identity and even our appearance.

In any case, I think what you are talking about in your post is the development of character, which is developed by the process of overcoming the natural man and conforming our wills to the will of the Father. It is the perfect compliment to our eternal personalities and identity, and having Christ-like character is what I believe it means to receive God's image in our countenance.

What is the crowning glory of man in this earth so far as his individual achievement is concerned? It is character—character developed through obedience to the laws of life as revealed through the gospel of Jesus Christ, who came that we might have life and have it more abundantly [see John 10:10]. Man’s chief concern in life should not be the acquiring of gold, or of fame, or of material possessions. It should not be the development of physical prowess, nor of intellectual strength, but his aim, the highest in life, should be the development of a Christ-like character.

Character is built by adherence to principles. Character grows from within just as a tree grows, just as every living thing grows. There is no outward thing to be put on to make yourself beautiful; [products from] the drug store [help], it is true, but it is only superficial and temporary. Real beauty, as character, comes from within, and that which contributes to strength of character is in compliance with those principles enunciated by the Prophet Joseph, and by the Savior Himself: virtue, uprightness, holiness—keeping the commandments of God [see History of the Church, 5:134–35]. (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Developing a Christlike Character)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have no major quarrels with what you are saying in the above paragraph. Have I wrote something that made you think otherwise? I thought our main difference had to do with resurrected beings in the eternities and the status of individual identity and even our appearance.

Yes, you have written things like our mortal body takes on the likeness of our spirit, like a "tight fitting glove." I question that. I would say it is more like sitting inside an automobile. Yes the spirit is inside and controls the automobile, where it drives etc. But, its performance and speed and even shape are not necessarily directed by what the spirits capabilities are in terms of performance and speed etc. There are some features that would come out but the majority of our actions here in mortality are driven by the passions of the body. Even as spiritually connected as the apostles were, they couldn't stay awake in the garden with Jesus. The body dictates more than the spirit for the majority of our actions, thoughts, mannerisms and even talents and abilities.

One proof, for me, against the "tight fitting glove" idea is that we know spirits that are born into trisomy 21 bodies will go to the celestial kingdom. Well, obviously then our body does not have to take on the exact shape and form and function as the spirit in this life. It is not a necessary function, unless you think that is how their spirits looked in the pre-earth life. And if it is not necessary, why are you insisting that when I look in the mirror right now, that is how my spirit looked? Those with trisomy 21 could say for sure that when they look in the mirror they will not look the same in the next. Then, people typically argue next: 'well if there is a major disease then they will be restored to what they would have looked like if they didn't have trisomy or whatever other disease.' And that was my original point, who among us does not have some alteration or blemish that affects form, function, brain power etc.? I think we all do. Our bodies in this life are corrupted and made Telestial to create a fallen state for testing. So, a lot of the things that we call "ourselves" in this life will not carry through when we go on because they are quirky flaws and changes from the original. It is more obvious when we talk about a trisomy 21 or a trisomy 18 body. I don't know of anyone in this life that has perfect genes, other than possibly Jesus. Those genes affect the way we look, not to the same degree as someone with trisomy 21 but similarly are affected.

The degree to which I think the body has fallen from its paradisiacal state to this telestial state is (I think) a lot farther than what you are suggesting. That is where we differ the most in this discussion. And the degree to which the spirit can overpower the mortal body. I think a perfect body is more like a tight fitting glove but these mortal ones at best are like a suit of plate armor. And I don't think the likeness of the individual inside plate armor is obvious when it is being worn. That person would look different when the armor is off, even though the person remains a unique individual through the whole process.

[Vanhin]

Yes, you have written things like our mortal body takes on the likeness of our spirit, like a "tight fitting glove." I question that.

Oh, I see what you are getting at. Yes, I did use that rather imperfect example to make my point. In context, I said the following.

The blemishes of mortality aside, the physical body has taken on the unique appearance of our immortal spirit and has added physical flesh and bone to our identity. Like putting on a tight glove, which conforms to the shape and characteristics of our hand.

Obviously you have to add on top of that effects caused by our condition, or what I call "blemishes of mortality" in my quote above - whether it be disease, obesity, deformity, loss of limbs, scars from being burned, etc...

I have more to say, but I will say it in conjunction with my answers to the rest of your post.

I would say it is more like sitting inside an automobile.

Way bad analogy... If I agreed with you, I would say more like sitting inside a Mechwarrior (or the suit of armor analogy you used below). We already know that our bodies are in the likeness of our spirit, complete with hands and feet, head, mouth, and ears, and so forth. We know from revelation that the image of human bodies are in the likeness of the person of our spirits, which is in the image and likeness of God.

...that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created. (D&C 77:2)

To the brother of Jared, who beheld that the finger of the Lord looked like a man's finger, the pre-mortal Jesus Christ revealed himself to him and said the following.

Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:16)

One proof, for me, against the "tight fitting glove" idea is that we know spirits that are born into trisomy 21 bodies will go to the celestial kingdom. Well, obviously then our body does not have to take on the exact shape and form and function as the spirit in this life. It is not a necessary function, unless you think that is how their spirits looked in the pre-earth life. And if it is not necessary, why are you insisting that when I look in the mirror right now, that is how my spirit looked? Those with trisomy 21 could say for sure that when they look in the mirror they will not look the same in the next. Then, people typically argue next: 'well if there is a major disease then they will be restored to what they would have looked like if they didn't have trisomy or whatever other disease.' And that was my original point, who among us does not have some alteration or blemish that affects form, function, brain power etc.? I think we all do. Our bodies in this life are corrupted and made Telestial to create a fallen state for testing. So, a lot of the things that we call "ourselves" in this life will not carry through when we go on because they are quirky flaws and changes from the original. It is more obvious when we talk about a trisomy 21 or a trisomy 18 body. I don't know of anyone in this life that has perfect genes, other than possibly Jesus. Those genes affect the way we look, not to the same degree as someone with trisomy 21 but similarly are affected.

The degree to which I think the body has fallen from its paradisiacal state to this telestial state is (I think) a lot farther than what you are suggesting. That is where we differ the most in this discussion. And the degree to which the spirit can overpower the mortal body. I think a perfect body is more like a tight fitting glove but these mortal ones at best are like a suit of plate armor. And I don't think the likeness of the individual inside plate armor is obvious when it is being worn. That person would look different when the armor is off, even though the person remains a unique individual through the whole process.

I realize and admit that mortality affects the look of our bodies in varying and profound ways, but I think even the most deformed individual in mortality carries characteristics in their likeness that would unequivocally identify them as the individual that they are in the spirit. But even if no semblance exists at all in such an individual, if the individual could be regenerated before our very eyes, they would end up looking like their very own spirit and be unique, and not clones, as you postulated in the beginning of this conversation. That is what I am arguing against.

I take comfort in this discussion knowing that my stance is found all throughout the publications and curriculum of the Church, and in the statements of Church leaders. I think you would be in a better position if you could produce similar support for your point of view.

I leave you with the following from a lesson in the current curriculum of the Church for primary aged children. I thought it was significant that the teacher is to have a "five fingered" glove, not a mitten or some other kind of glove.

Display the wordstrip “Spirit.”

Explain to the children that when we lived in heaven before we came to earth, we did not have physical bodies. We were spirits.

• What is a spirit?

Explain that our spirits are the part of us that make us alive.

• What do you think your spirit looks like?

Pass around a small mirror and have each child look into it. Ask the children if the mirror gives them any idea what their spirits look like.

Explain that our spirits look like our physical bodies. For example, spirits have eyes, ears, arms, and legs.

Object lesson

Place a glove on the table. Explain that even though the glove is shaped like a hand, it cannot move like a hand because it is not alive. When a hand is placed in the glove, then the glove can move. Put your hand into the glove and wiggle your fingers. Explain that the glove is like a physical body, and the hand is like a spirit. Our bodies cannot move without our spirits inside them. Our spirits cannot be seen inside our bodies, just as the hand inside the glove cannot be seen. (See Boyd K. Packer, Teach Ye Diligently [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1975], pp. 231–33.) (LDS.org - Primary Chapter Detail - I Am a Child of God)

I also think that those of us who are accountable for our actions in mortality, can and must have mastery over our bodies, in order to develop the kind of Christ-like character necessary for exaltation.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited August 19, 2010 by Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

It is not that the temporal (mortal body) is likeness (copy) of our spirit image, it is the spirit image that molds (more like elasticity) to our temporal likeness (this is according a Joseph Smith statement).

Edited August 20, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Seminarysnoozer]

Vanhin,

If I knew what a "mech warrior" was I would have used that example (I had to ask my son). But you get what I am saying. All discussion that I see about the appearance of our spirits is focused on the idea that we have 'two eyes' a mouth, arms and legs etc. I don't see anything that suggests we had varied appearances. As far as I know, variability is a function of mortality that allows for survivability in a competitive world. My whole premise to ponder these things is that I think there are plenty of messages in the BOM and from other sources that suggest we should not pride ourselves over our individual identity. This is why we don't tattoo our bodies or try to overdo what we wear to church etc. In this life in particular we shouldn't develop a passion to stand out as an "individual" as I hear from my own teenager and her friends all the time. I think that is part of the pride leading to a fall cycle found in the BOM. We should always give praise to God for every talent and ability we have been given in this life as a gift that we didn't have before. Even talents that directly come from our body such as athletic ability or musical talents or even a mind for science and learning, these are gifts in the form of our body that may not have been part of our spiritual make up. If one wants to say 'that was me' even before the world began then that person is not looking at those abilities as a gift, they are being prideful as if they can do those things on their own. That is how I see this discussion applied to our current situation. And the other focus, which we have already discussed, is having our eye single to the glory of God. The single body of the glory of the sun as opposed to the varied bodies of glory of the stars. If one's desire is to 'look' like an individual or unique appearance separate from everyone else, I think there is danger in that thought process. I think it would be hard to keep one's eye single to the glory of God with that desire. Again, these are things I am pondering. Our overall beliefs are the same. Thanks for the discussion.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer

[Vanhin]

If I knew what a "mech warrior" was I would have used that example (I had to ask my son).

Awesome!

Thanks for the discussion.

You are welcome, and thank you. :)

Sincerely,

Vanhin