Over Manifestations of Satan

[PrinceofLight2000]

Excellent point and context not withstanding, the meaning was meant to be Satan's interest in us and not his interest in God.

However, I reject either interpretation and remain of the opinion that we subscribe way too much to Satan's interventions. Temptations and behaviors remain without a supernatural causation and the true inner demon we need to control is our own desire.

"Get thee behind me, Self."

Behaviors don't have supernatural causation, but temptations certainly do.

[PrinceofLight2000]

No... What I'm saying is when Joseph knelt darkness did manifest itself to him point blank.Joseph kept calling on God and at the point where Joseph felt he was about to give up and be destroyed God stepped in and saved him.

What came from it was that Joseph then knew that God was real, God was there, God was all powerful.

He had no doubts about those things anymore.He didn't have to ask which church any longer.

Then he was instructed to make this church.

No good can come from it tho?

I disagree.

No good can come directly from any of Satan's activities. It can come indirectly as a result if we make the opposite choice and follow God's will, though.

[Therauh]

That's directly what i've been saying...indirectly. :)

However...I question why you believe its possible for temptations to have supernatural causes but not behaviors? Please don't anyone take what I'm saying the wrong way.... I'm not trying to condone "the devil made me do it"...but I don't see where its entirely impossible.

What happens to those who go through what Joseph did but aren't saved by God?

[PrinceofLight2000]

That's directly what i've been saying...indirectly. :)

However...I question why you believe its possible for temptations to have supernatural causes but not behaviors? Please don't anyone take what I'm saying the wrong way.... I'm not trying to condone "the devil made me do it"...but I don't see where its entirely impossible.

What happens to those who go through what Joseph did but aren't saved by God?

That's the thing. If any other man was ever so crucial to enacting God's plan that Satan tried to intervene in the way that he did with Joseph Smith, I don't think God wouldn't intervene with a countermeasure. Whether that involves a physical manifestation of Him is another question.

[Therauh]

There are actually many instances where behaviors were affected by such things and the results can be almost unbelievable yet they happen I think.

A few examples:

Mark 5

Luke 22

So I conclude that it is possible....

I can tell you what happened to Joseph, being overcome by darkness, has happened to others.Well at least one that I know of for sure.Wasn't a pillar of light or an amazing conversation immediately following but there was a few month old child that roared like a lion but YEA!! However he chooses to do it....HE STILL SAVES!

[PrinceofLight2000]

There are actually many instances where behaviors were affected by such things and the results can be almost unbelievable yet they happen I think.

A few examples:

Mark 5

Luke 22

So I conclude that it is possible....

I can tell you what happened to Joseph, being overcome by darkness, has happened to others.Well at least one that I know of for sure.Wasn't a pillar of light or an amazing conversation immediately following but there was a few month old child that roared like a lion but YEA!! However he chooses to do it....HE STILL SAVES!

As for this first example with Legion, Christ Himself intervened, similar to what happened with Joseph. Additionally, we have Christ's power to banish evil spirits thanks to the priesthood. So it really all comes back to the same thing. God intervenes via the priesthood.

As for Judas, did Satan actually possess him, or did he succumb to Satan's temptations?

[Therauh]

Would anyone sane sell out their savior whom they loved for some coin and then turn around shortly after that and hang themself unless they were? It says Satan entered him. In another spot that relates the story Jesus even tells him to do what he has to quickly.He wasnt speaking to Judas...anymore. I think a better question would be how did he do it? After all he was a disciple.

What do you mean by Via the priesthood?

There wasn't a priesthood apparently when Joseph was overcome as most understand it.

I don't remember any priests being next to me either...I was the only human person there.

Other than the Ultimate priest showing up there wasn't any priesthood doing anything for us other than the power of God.

I don't see the reason to label it as God via priesthood when God was the only one that could do it.

I prefer to just "Thank God".

I'm sure Joseph Thanked God also....without throwing the priesthood into it.

Its much simpler than all the technical terms that cause misinterpretations and confusion.

Priesthood power is nice but it doesn't trump where it comes from.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Therauh
I dunno....maybe The Ruah made me do it

[PrinceofLight2000]

Would anyone sane sell out their savior whom they loved for some coin and then turn around shortly after that and hang themself unless they were? It says Satan entered him. In another spot that relates the story Jesus even tells him to do what he has to quickly.He wasnt speaking to Judas...anymore. I think a better question would be how did he do it? After all he was a disciple.

What do you mean by Via the priesthood?

There wasn't a priesthood apparently when Joseph was overcome as most understand it.

I don't remember any priests being next to me either...I was the only human person there.

Other than the Ultimate priest showing up there wasn't any priesthood doing anything for us other than the power of God.

I don't see the reason to label it as God via priesthood when God was the only one that could do it.

I prefer to just "Thank God".

I'm sure Joseph Thanked God also....without throwing the priesthood into it.

Its much simpler than all the technical terms that cause misinterpretations and confusion.

Priesthood power is nice but it doesn't trump where it comes from.

Joseph didn't use the priesthood, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ came down and used it. You need to remember that all of God's power is in based on the fact that He holds the priesthood and exercises it.

As for Judas, I'd like to see a statement by a General Authority or maybe a lesson backing up what you're saying here. I've never heard of this or pondered about it before.

Edited September 3, 2010 by PrinceofLight2000

[Therauh]

I don't know why it seems like were debating this when

I think we both said the same thing just a different way

Perhaps pride is getting in the way

Our discussion was can behaviors be influenced by satan

You don't like the route I took to prove it one way and yes

I can see where some might have a problem accepting that

I'm sure some at the time had a hard time accepting that

Adam and Eve had to do as they did to bring about Gods purpose

Heres an easier example we shouldn't have to call the GA about

_______ is caused by the devil.

I think he works for cosmo too

Mamma said "Cosmo teh devil!" :)

Edited September 4, 2010 by Therauh
My waterboy cosmo joke

[Moksha]

Behaviors don't have supernatural causation, but temptations certainly do.

Which ones? Our own innate greeds and lusts or do you mean the placing of a brand new fully loaded Lexus LFA in the Church parking luring the men to covet?

Some would insist the car was of Japanese rather than supernatural origin and that our reaction to the car was part of our internal thought process.

[PrinceofLight2000]

Which ones? Our own innate greeds and lusts or do you mean the placing of a brand new fully loaded Lexus LFA in the Church parking luring the men to covet?

Some would insist the car was of Japanese rather than supernatural origin and that our reaction to the car was part of our internal thought process.

Neither. Satan doesn't cause our natural susceptibility to be tempted by certain things. This is caused by the fall. Nor does he materialize things to tempt us with.

What he does do is take advantage of a given situation we're presented with by outside forces, in your case someone parking a Lexus, and encourages our innate susceptibility to covet that Lexus.

That's what we call a temptation.

[PrinceofLight2000]

I don't know why it seems like were debating this when

I think we both said the same thing just a different way

Perhaps pride is getting in the way

Our discussion was can behaviors be influenced by satan

You don't like the route I took to prove it one way and yes

I can see where some might have a problem accepting that

I'm sure some at the time had a hard time accepting that

Adam and Eve had to do as they did to bring about Gods purpose

Heres an easier example we shouldn't have to call the GA about

_______ is caused by the devil.

I think he works for cosmo too

Mamma said "Cosmo teh devil!" :)

Now that I think about it I'm not sure either. We agree, I just decided to make a distinction and it carried over into a few tangential responses between the two of us. lol.

[Therauh]

This isn't a reply to any of the posts here but perhaps it would be easier to understand why I've said some of the things I've said as to why I think at times satan's attempts/attacks/manifestations on people can sometimes have an effect that works out counter productive for him.

My Testimony

Edited September 9, 2010 by Therauh