Kids, Courts and God Help Me

[Therauh]

Just found out that my 8 year old daughter has been subpoenaed to witness against her 12 year old brother this coming Friday.He was apparently in the vicinity of something that had been damaged when someone noticed there was damage to someones property.This isn't the first time the local cheif of police has went after these kids for stuff that he has little if any proof of.It irritates me that my daughter needs to be summoned before a court for this type of thing.That's a pretty week case in my opinion.Unfortunately, her mother has her this week and recieved the subpoenae.If she was with me I wouldn't let her go as a witness just because children can be easy made to say things they don't mean in these situations and I find weak to subject an 8 year old child to something like this unless it's personally involved.I haven't decided but I feel inclined to go to this hearing and express my disgust as her mothers and the boys court appointed attorney doesn't do anything but lead them down the path of making the court happy and taking blame for anything these people say they did.I investigated one incident they were accused of one time and the evidence which the police never looked at clearly showed that the allegations weren't even possible.I'm about ready to fire up my old website for the area to get these people fired from their jobs if its possible by allowing people including myself to express thier displeasure with the way the system is working around here.It's worked for me before doing this with the court.Shining a light on em tends to make them change their tune.I do wonder how God has felt about me doing such things in the past cause I went against "The Law" but in my opinion "The Law" has gone against "The Law of the Land" which in government class I was told was "The Constitution" which has been interpreted to mean many different things over the years.I love the original but those who are supposed to uphold it are tearing holes in it left and right with their interpretations and on top of that they don't adhere to it anyways.

I dunno what to do

1. Let God take care of it.

2. Protect my daughter from witnessing against her brothers - Take custody that day and tell her mother to tell the court "Didn't you send her dad a subpeonae???"

3. Show up and tell my daughter to not say anything and watch the cheif get mad at me till I tell him he needs permission from me to ever talk to my kid again unless it life threating.

4. Go in and call down fire on em, don't think I can pull this of yet but If I could. :)

All 4 of those options could have a chance of being linked to choice number 1.

Do I have more choices??? Which one sound best??? Which might work???

I only have till Friday to decide and hiring a lawyer isn't one of the choices but I wouldn't mind some legal advice on the subject if anyone has any.

Thanks

[Just_A_Guy]

You do not ignore a subpoena, or interfere with witness testimony, unless you want to go to jail. Period.

If you think the subpoena is unfair, you file a Motion to Quash. I have no experience doing them myself--Google and ye shall probably find.

[Dravin]

Motion to Quash

Is that the official terminology? If so, that is just too cool.

[Therauh]

Well normally I wouldn't but I'm not convinced what there are doing is legal in the first place.

Their evidence consists of an 8 year olds answers to a trained manipulator.If thats all they have for a case then I think its in my daughters best interest to not testify against her siblings for things others have been seen tampering with.Who summons an 8 year old to witness against their family if they weren't involved in the issue taking place?Constitutionally, A wife can't be forced to bear testimony against her husband.Somehow and 8 year old can be forced to bear testimony against her brother?That seems off to me.It wouldn't be tampering eaither in my opinion.Everyone's allowed to remain silent if they choose to do so.Some might hide that choice but its an option that isn't against the law.Plus, like I said I didn't recieve an subpoena so I'm not required to obey it.

So is that option 1 or option 4 your suggesting? 8)

I don't know how to file a motion for zucchini 8(

A little bit more on the story

At first they were charging the 13 year old boy and his 11 year old brother for malicious destruction of property.

What happened that has been admitted to by the boys is that the 11 year old was riding his bike near the entrance to the office and ran into a 4x4 pole going to a small overhang roof and the other end anchored to the cement.Well the 11 year old fell down and someone came out and discovered the pole was loose.So they called the police and the police charged them with malicious destruction in the amount of around a $1000.00 dollars to pay for all visible destruction to he entire front of the building which they had absolutely nothing to do with.

Tell me thats justice.

I think its more like this and has been for these boys

Habakkuk 1:4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

Justice has been turned upside down in my opinion.

It doesn't matter how I look at this.I can't see how they can attempt to do this.

I could see them having to pay for re-anchoring the post but not paying for a office building make over.

Anything that happens in the neighborhood this cheif of police tries to blame on these boys.

And the courts and their court appointed attorneys whom are paid out of their pocket help them do it.

If the boys mother could afford a real lawyer (one that actually did his job) this would have ended long ago.

Decent people would have let it go from the start and said are you ok? Be careful

People with money would have sued the business for outdated dangerous architecture and the boys skinned knee

Poor people well....You get this garbage.

Edited October 6, 2010 by Therauh

[jayanna]

That is ridiculous, how can you do $1000 worth of damage on a bike?

Held up by a 4x4? Isn't that dangerous?

You should maybe talk to the boys' attorney about that. Should an 8 year old give testimony? Well, the judge is gonna be someone who has been around the block, so he/she will probably respond the same way you have. Just be there with her to support her, and let the court know how you feel about kids having to go through all this.

[Gwen]

ok i'm a little confused, forgive me for not keeping up.... your daughter is being asked to testify against her brother.... but not your son? so half brother or step brother? just want to make sure i have that right. why didn't they send you a copy of the letter? do you have joint custody?

i would not leave a child of mine alone in that situation, i don't care if the other parent is there. i would be in the room when it happened. i would politely and respectfully state my objections to putting an 8 yr old through such an event. an 8 yr old is very easy to manipulate either direction, if that's the best evidence they got they have a very bad case. there is no way you can prove guilt over a child's testimony. i would not go in mouthing off to the courts. i would request a delay in the testimony to allow you time to hire a lawyer for your daughter and time for them to fully understand the situation.

i know lawyers are expensive and it wouldn't be easy but i believe in protecting my kids, the right way, and in this system that's what you have to do. you may also be able to use all the events to alter your custody agreement if you aren't ok with how it is now, which you would need a lawyer for (two birds with one stone?).

[Dravin]

Well normally I wouldn't but I'm not convinced what there are doing is legal in the first place.

And your legal training is? Common sense isn't always the best judge of legal behavior. If you think the behavior is illegal there is probably someone you can make a case to (but you'll never really know unless an expert on the law is consulted at some point), but ignoring a subpoena is not going to make it go away and only lead to more trouble. You'll end up in trouble (or the mother) for failing to bring the child in, so now not only would your son be at odds with the law one or both of his parents would be as well. I fail to see how that helps him.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Dravin

[FunkyTown]

I have a question about this.

You say this isn't the first time this happened. And your son is 12. Have you considered that maybe your son needs more parental guidance? That he's acting out and needs discipline in his life?

All I'm sayin' is that this probably isn't Hazzard County, your last name isn't 'Duke', and the odds are the cops aren't out to get your boys for being just some good old boys. Never meanin' no harm.

[Gwen]

i'm kinda thinking the same thing ft. i know places that have witch hunts but i don't think the are the norm.

the way the op words things i'm inclined to say these aren't his boys. they are the mother's other children or the mother's step kids.

if these boys are in need of greater parental guidance then that worries me. is the daughter in a safe situation? does the 12 yr old ever babysit? if he does have some issues that would concern me. that's the red flag i see here not the courts (though they may have major issues as well).

if i'm wrong and the boys are are the sons of the op then that is the biggest red flag of all and would only push me to believe these boys are acting out in need of a father.

in the end, i would not leave my daughter alone in that situation, no one could stop me from being there.

[Guest]

I keep on seeing that boy telling Tommy Lee Jones and Susan Sarandon... "I plead the fifth!"...

Something is really wierd about this whole thing. Go move to another county or something.

[applepansy]

Can you hire an attorney? I've run into some real abuses in the junvenile legal system. Its up to parents to protect their children's constitutional rights.

[Just_A_Guy]

Well normally I wouldn't but I'm not convinced what there are doing is legal in the first place. . . .

That doesn't mean you can just ignore the process. One can Be Right all one wants. I'm just warning you that while a person can ignore a subpoena or instruct one's child not to answer the questions put to her in open court, a person who does that will very likely end up be protesting his rightness from inside the clink.

Constitutionally, A wife can't be forced to bear testimony against her husband. . . . It wouldn't be tampering eaither in my opinion.Everyone's allowed to remain silent if they choose to do so. . . . Plus, like I said I didn't recieve an subpoena so I'm not required to obey it.

Every one of these statements is wrong, or at least not applicable to a case such as the one you describe:

• Spousal privilege is not a matter of constitutional law; it's a matter of state evidence law and will vary from state to state. You need to talk to a lawyer in your jurisdiction; though I note that I've never heard of any legal privilege protecting siblings from testifying against each other. Even if that privilege exists, I personally would assert it before or during the hearing; not after.
• A person is allowed to remain silent if the charges are against that person, or if there is a specific legal privilege involved. Otherwise, refusing to testify constitutes contempt of court and possibly obstruction of justice.
• Maybe the "I didn't get the subpoena" gambit will work, maybe it won't. One should ask oneself if one would be ready to go to jail if the court doesn't buy that defense.

So is that option 1 or option 4 your suggesting? 8)

LOL. I'm not suggesting anything; I'm just telling you what I would consider my options to be were I in your situation. I see them as being:

1) Let the girl testify, and just deal with the psychological fallout as best you can;

2) Lawyer up now (or try to represent myself), and relay my concerns to the court (probably through a Motion to Quash--yeah, Dravin, that's really what they call it!);

3) Hide the girl (or tell her to show up but not to answer questions), go to jail, and then get a lawyer to try to convince the court that I was right all along.

Obviously, anyone having a beef with a municipal official is free to use the democratic process to try to get that official unseated.

One suggestion I will make (but you need to do this today) - call your state's Guardian Ad Litem and see if they'd be willing to have an attorney represent your daughter's interests specifically. The state would probably cover this expense, but you should be warned that the GAL, if appointed, will act according to what they think is in your daughter's best interest--not according to what you think is her best interest.

Habakkuk 1:4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

The law can be wrong; but they can still put you in jail. Don't mess around with this.

Obligatory disclaimer, because lawyers are 1/4 weasel:I am not your attorney; and you should not consider any attorney-client relationship to exist. All the above is merely generalities about how legal systems tend to operate. For state-specific information or actual advice as to your particular situation, you should consult with a lawyer licensed in your state (which I am not).

[Therauh]

Your correct they aren't my boys, they are my daughters step brothers and children of her their mother.We seperated about 2 years ago.We were together for about ten years,never got married cause she was married before and after about 5 years I found out she was betraying me.Tried workin it out but my anger got the best of me over another 5 years of her adding fuel to the fire.She decided she didn't want to change so she left and took her boys whom I've known since they were just a few years old.Their dad hasn't ever spent much time with them.One of them he hardly acknowledges as his.I understand why his mind is doubtful as I can see her through a more true light myself now.

Currently yes we have joint custody without the courts involment...one of the few good things I can say about her but she knows if it came to it and she pushes it I wouldn't go quitely.

They started having these problems after they left my home and yea mom hasn't got her head on straight.Her most recent goal and accomplishment is attaining a medical marijuanna card.Which she taunts me with saying I know it makes you mad but 8P.

At times I wish I could afford an attorney to get custody but I lost my job about a week after she left cause my former employer fired me cause I left work for a few hours cause my daughter need to go to the ER.So now I'm on TRA and going to school.I'm in Northern Michigan and there isn't much of anything for jobs that pay over minimum wage $7.45.People wonder why I call it Northern Mexico instead of Northern Michigan.So extra money for a lawyer is really ruff.I struggle with the idea of taking it all to that level.I don't want my daughter to be upset for pulling her from her mom.At some point it will come to this after I finish school cause there are no jobs here at all for the field I'm going into.

So yea I know the parental guidance isn't where it should be but I've been cut out of that picture.The boys aren't angels but it has much to do with the harrasment they've been receiving and the examples mom and her friends are setting.That doesn't give the court and the police the right to charge them in excess of what they did and these boys never get the benefit of the doubt.Barely ever from their mom even.

An incedent that happened before in the neighborhood they are in that I looked into was a complaint that the boys destroyed a board compost.It happened in the winter right near the home and where the compost is there was this huge snow hill/bank that all the kids in the area would come to play on.So there were multiple kids in the area all the time.Anyways the police came to their house one day while I was there and accused the boys of destroying the compost.I happened to be visiting my daughter at the time.After about five minutes of the cop trying to force him to admit that it was him that destroyed the thing the day before.I told the kid to stop talking to him and asked the officer if he was deaf.The officer told me I was a bad parent because I told him that was enough and told him he had got his statement now go prove your case and stop drilling the kids ears.After the officer left I went over and looked at the compost.It was definately apart but it looked a little strange to me that these boards had inches of snow on top of them and it hadn't snowed in almost two weeks.I started taking pictures of the boards I picked a few off the ground that didn't have snow on them and had to reef them of the snow which stuck to the bottom of them about six inches worth.There's no way this happened the way they said and if the police even would have looked at the scene there is no way they couldn't have came to the same conclusion.So they went on hearsay and who they wanted to charge with it.The mothers attorney in court didn't even use the pictures I took that were time stamped.

The boys mom doesn't defend them.She can't really she doesn't know her right even..well except for what she has taken an interest in knowing.I'm tired of seeing the court play this game with them.The court has put mom far enough behind with there suits against them over stuff like this that she has now recieved an eviction notice even.I think she has another place lined up and thats good but I'm concerned with what she'll do out of the eyes of the law further and I'm concerned for my kid and these boys.Not a whole lot I can do about it.

Yea I realize I may not be Bo or Luke although seldom do I lose a case.These police here are Rosco and Cletus imo.Call em for help and your more likely to go to jail than the person commiting the crime.Seen it firsthand(might tell that story next).The court system here and its clowns make me ill.They are district courts tho the next county isn't really escaping and I have no legal right to help them all escape and I don't want to leave my daughter.Having her only two weeks at a time Is hard enough on me.I expected to be with her her whole childhood till she was an adult.I'm gonna miss half of that cause someone else wanted to be a partime parent.

What legal experience do I have??? Just what someones wrote on my heart

Edited October 6, 2010 by Therauh

[Dravin]

What legal experience do I have??? Just what someones wrote on my heart

Which is to say none. Don't make the mistake of assuming that laws follow (usually our sense of) morality and common sense. We like to think they do but that isn't always the case.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Dravin

[Therauh]

Nope, I've been around enough to see how it works and doesn't work for the most part.

I understand whats real and isn't.Trust me I've asked peoples advice like this before and had everyone telling me I was wrong and there's no way it will work out no matter what I do and I've managed with the help of someone to prove them all wrong at times.God enjoys confounding the wise.So how exactly can you say what's wrote on my heart equals nothing?I might not fit your expectations of what is or isn't something and I guess thats ok because there are ton of people that don't fit my expectations of things either.Just because someone has an education or holds a certain office doesn't mean they are any good at what they do or should be doing it.

BTW They dropped the case today.Option 1 came through so option 4 wasn't needed.

[Dravin]

So how exactly can you say what's wrote on my heart equals nothing?

I didn't say it equals nothing, I said it isn't legal experience (though I asked you about training). Now it does sounds like you have some first hand experience with the court but that will not necessarily tell you if something is legal or not, it simply gives you a feel for how a particular system operates. Courts drop cases they could legally pursue because it isn't worth the effort, but because something is dropped don't assume it means it wouldn't have been legal to pursue.

For instance, I could get a ticket for 2 miles per hour over. There is a good chance such could be dropped, that doesn't mean driving 2 miles per hour over the limit is legal, and if I refused to show up in court to contest the ticket, or refused to pay my ticket there would be trouble.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Dravin

[Therauh]

I see what your saying except for the mystical fairy dust that disappeared.

There's no doubt that I have a jaded view towards the justice system.

Was it my injustice that made that so or was it theirs?

Just because the system pursues something doesn't make it right even though their view is that it is right.Its all perception and yes I disagree with theirs.Just because they have the ability to throw me behind bars doesn't mean they are right to do so.While you might call it legal for them to do so I think they need or should have a viable reason.

For instance...The officer I mentioned one time threatened to take me to jail if he saw a certain person drive their vehicle ever again.Would that have been legal for him to do?He certainly thought so.Although his law would have forced me to take anothers rights away which I had no right to do.So I laughed at him told him that it wasn't my job.He threatened some more.I laughed more and asked him if he would mind if I called my lawyer now or wait till after we get to the jail.

I have to put my faith in what my heart tells me otherwise I'd have to put it in these people and that aint gonna happen for good reason.Jail doesn't scare me as much as answering to God for not attempting to do what I think is right when I'm aware of what's wrong in what I perceive to be happening.I have fallen on that sword a few times and I'm trying to avoid it as much as possible.Defending fatherless kids ranks pretty high.Unfortunately, Its not in my power to provide them with much of anything these days as they aren't in my custody so my knowledge of much of their situations is limited.I'm worried about them regardless of their angel status.

[Dravin]

I have to put my faith in what my heart tells me otherwise I'd have to put it in these people and that aint gonna happen for good reason.

Or you could consult a lawyer, who would not only have legal training but your best interest at heart (at least if he's scrupulous he would, and at least until the hour was up). You could even try to do your own research (though good luck reading legalese if you haven't learned to do so). Gut feelings of what the law ought to be is a bad way of trying to figure out what the law actually is.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Dravin

[Therauh]

Last time I consulted a lawyer completely on my own they told me it was their time and their time equals money.So I told him well your suggestions are kinda interesting but I haven't got thousands of dollars to throw at ya for this.I was being sued by a hospital that I went to for six months for pain that told me I had acid reflux and many other things in between even though none of their fixs worked.After six months I think they could keep charging my insurance so they decided when I came in the last time that they would label me a drug seeker and send me on my way.I didn't take it to kindly.Wadded up my gown and chucked it at the doctor as I was walkin out and told her I wouldn't be paying the bill and asked her what cracker jack box she got her liscense out of.Went to another hospital and they found out I had a bad gall bladder within 3 days.Took it out within a few weeks and found out it was gang green/necrotic.The bill for actually getting my problem takin care of was cheaper than the six months worth of nuthing I recieved from the other hospital.Paid it and went my way till the other hospital waited out the time needed for me to file a malpractice suit and then tried to sue me.Anyways The lawyer wouldn't help me much but he did offer to write me a reply for them for $150.00 where he would translate my words into legal mumbo jumbo but I was on my own.Almost won but lost because of the filing time limits on malpractice suits.The judge said he 'd have to review the items I brought infront of the court.So they adjourned and he sent me a letter later telling me my claim was thrown out and when my next court date was so they could tell me how much I owed.At the time I had my website up and had been updating everyone about everything that was going on through the whole process.Almost everyone said it was wrong but they all said I'd end up paying for all of it plus court costs.Before the next court date I sent the hospital a link to the ongoing story I had been writing and all the comments so far and I also sent the lawyer an email to it also and told him I might lose this case finacially but I'm takin your good names (sarcasm) with me.He contacted me the next day and said the hospital wanted to drop the whole suit if I would please stop writing the truth on the website. :)

I coulda saved myself $150.00 I already had the answer to winning.

Current situation I could make some headway going the same route but it won't solve everything.

Won't help the kids soon enough...and I don't have an extra $150.00+ to risk with no guarantees.

So I have to bide my time and do what I can come up with and that equals pray and hope Gods still doin miracles.

Thats what I have to work with and so far he hasn't let me down.I don't always come out unbruised but I'm still livin.

Just wish it wasn't so trying sometimes and I didn't feel the need to vent to others so much.

Being and watching those I care about be afflicted gets the better of me at times.

God knows my heart tho and he's the one who writes on it.

I dont consider him a fairy tho.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Therauh