Compulsivness

[martybess]

What is it about us and compulsive tendencies? Why can some ppl control themselves with no problems while others seem to be helplessly caught in a compulsive cycle? To me the scriptures make this seem so black and white, is it? Addictions use to be classified as “addictive substances, alcohol, LSD, etc.” Now it’s not so simple. But when one reads the scriptures it seems cut and dry.

Alma 39:9 Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things.

What has changed in the world? Or has anything really changed?

Any takes on this confusing subject??

[Wingnut]

Are you talking about addictions, or compulsions? They're completely different problems.

[Traveler]

What is it about us and compulsive tendencies? Why can some ppl control themselves with no problems while others seem to be helplessly caught in a compulsive cycle? To me the scriptures make this seem so black and white, is it? Addictions use to be classified as “addictive substances, alcohol, LSD, etc.” Now it’s not so simple. But when one reads the scriptures it seems cut and dry.

Alma 39:9 Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things.

What has changed in the world? Or has anything really changed?

Any takes on this confusing subject??

The journey to bondage I believe is a three step process that is the opposite journey of righteousness:

The first step is selfishness.

The second is compulsion or habit.

The final step is addiction.

Even the final step can be broken and reversed with the first step to righteousness (which we call repentance) but is in essence discipline or self sacrifice.

The Traveler

[martybess]

Are you talking about addictions, or compulsions? They're completely different problems.

I'm not sure really. I ran across this book "Breaking the Cycle of Compulsive Behavior - By Martha Nibley Beck, John C. Beck" on gospelink that seems to address addictions but talks allot about compulsiveness so I'm confused? Talks about different kinds of addictions and how they can't stop the compulsiveness that seems to over. I don't know I'm confused, I guess I just don't get it. LOL If they are different what's the differences?

[Wingnut]

I'm not sure really. I ran across this book "Breaking the Cycle of Compulsive Behavior - By Martha Nibley Beck, John C. Beck" on gospelink that seems to address addictions but talks allot about compulsiveness so I'm confused? Talks about different kinds of addictions and how they can't stop the compulsiveness that seems to over. I don't know I'm confused, I guess I just don't get it. LOL If they are different what's the differences?

I hear "compulsion" and I think of OCD -- cleaning, repetitive minutia, etc. You seem to be talking about addictions.

[Guest]

Some people can rise above compulsive/addictive behavior because they have learned to "master" themselves.

My husband, for example, is a good example. He was inactive for a while in his late teens/early twenties and when I met him he smoked and drank alcohol. The day he decided he wants to go back to church, he immediately let go of the vices. He was smoking one day, and he wasn't the next. There was no... nicotine patch or anything like that. He can do this because, even when he was smoking/drinking, he remained the "Master" of himself. The problem with most people is that they don't know when they are on the brink of losing control. Chemicals like nicotine and alcohol can grab hold of people so subtly that they don't realize it. Then when they do realize it and they try to get away - they find that they can't because they are not the "Master" of themselves anymore - the compulsion/chemical substance is.

This is another reason why I am not a fan of psychological medication especially the ones for ADHD. I would rather the child get trained on how to master himself without using chemical means.

[ryanh]

This is another reason why I am not a fan of psychological medication especially the ones for ADHD. I would rather the child get trained on how to master himself without using chemical means.

That's laughable anatess. Clearly you have some grand misunderstandings of how the body works. Would you try to tell a person with diabetes to simply control their insulin by will power / thought alone? Why would you think other chemical imbalances can simply be overcome by will alone?

So, you believe it is best not to take advantage of medications that correct, or partially correct, defective aspects of our mortal bodies? Because that means our agency is taken away or something, because it's the medication "making" the person be good?

The brain is an organ just like any other, and like any other is subject to imperfections. Changing the function of a brain doesn't change a persons Spirit any more than mending a broken leg, or treating diabetes does.

[Guest]

That's laughable anatess. Clearly you have some grand misunderstandings of how the body works. Would you try to tell a person with diabetes to simply control their insulin by will power / thought alone? Why would you think other chemical imbalances can simply be overcome by will alone?

So, you believe it is best not to take advantage of medications that correct, or partially correct, defective aspects of our mortal bodies? Because that means our agency is taken away or something, because it's the medication "making" the person be good?

The brain is an organ just like any other, and like any other is subject to imperfections. Changing the function of a brain doesn't change a persons Spirit any more than mending a broken leg, or treating diabetes does.

I will chalk your comment up to misunderstanding even if you weren't very nice about it.

Last time I checked, diabetes was not a psychological issue.

Before you bash me again, I will tell you that I'm a 2-time survivor of extreme post-partum depression without chemical assistance. Your brain is powerful enough to induce the production of the proper chemicals to balance yourself out if given the chance. Some people can do it, some people can't. Some people don't give it a chance and just pop a pill.

The problem with the pill is the same for any other synthetic product - it cannot completely mimic the chemical balance produced by the brain. That is why you have a zillion unintended side-effects that... you will have to fix with another pill.

If you have kids, I highly suggest investigating the merits of a holistic pediatrician (an M.D. with holistic training). Especially if you have special needs child - like autism.

Edited October 20, 2010 by anatess

[Wingnut]

Regarding ADD/ADHD, I have to agree with both anatess and ryanh here. I have been medicated in the past for mild depression and ADD. I currently am not medicated for either of them. When I first took the step to use chemical help, I did it with the intention of the medications being nothing more than a stop-gap. I started the meds, then took steps to learn about both my conditions, and how to work with them. I learned about my triggers and my cycles. I learned how to work around them, and sometimes even use them to my advantage, instead of continuing to fight against them, like I had been my entire life.

(I was diagnosed at 21 years old. When I was 12, my mom took me to the doctor, thinking I had ADD, which she'd been studying and reading a lot about. The doctor told her that ADD was just a buzzword -- 18 years ago now -- and that she should go home and be a better parent. She took me to another doctor who said the same thing.)

Eventually I went off the meds, because I'd learned how to manage myself. I learned that structure, for example, was essential in my days, and that I needed to complete measurable tasks in order to feel successful each day. Being a stay-at-home-mom, then, was a difficult adjustment. It occurred to me a few weeks ago that I am currently in a bit of need to start my ADD meds again (though not the depression ones) to help get myself back on track.

All this is a long way around to say: medications can be helpful for certain conditions. With other conditions, such as diabetes, they are essential. But there are some conditions that need a good balance and understanding between self-discipline and medication.

[ryanh]

What is it about us and compulsive tendencies? Why can some ppl control themselves with no problems while others seem to be helplessly caught in a compulsive cycle? To me the scriptures make this seem so black and white, is it? Addictions use to be classified as “addictive substances, alcohol, LSD, etc.” Now it’s not so simple. But when one reads the scriptures it seems cut and dry.

Alma 39:9 Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things.

What has changed in the world? Or has anything really changed?

Any takes on this confusing subject??

I don't think much has changed in human nature. One thing that has changed is our understanding of some of the roots of susceptibility to addictions. For example, certain genes have been identified that are strongly associated with susceptibility to becoming an alcoholic. Other mental disorders subject a person to addictions, or compulsions - such as OCD.

A small part of why I conclude not much has changed as the scripture you refer to is more than 2,000 years old. It would seem that Alma was seeing some issues in his son that needed crossing himself in, right? I think of Nephi and his lamenting about sins that so easily beset upon him.

What has changed is the availability of substances, activities, etc that can be used to "hook" us. Sure, gambling and loose sexuality has been around a very long time, but heroin for $5 a hit has not! Nor was printed or video pornography so widely available for the vast majority of human history! Think of it - it was only 15 years ago that any sort of passing of digital porn was possible. Now, it can be had on countless sites, in picture, and video, even for free. The availability of addictive activities has increased. No longer does a person have to spend time brewing or distilling alcohol. You take your $ to the store, and choose from a wide variety.

[martybess]

I am confused to what leads to the other. Addictions seems to me to cause one to compulsively do things as if they are being controlled by another. They can not control the action. At least that is what the book says (I think)? On the other hand doing things out of compulsiveness leads one to become addicted. Now they are saying that those addicted to porn have a chemical addiction as well. However as anatess has stated the brain can at least deal with not receiving the chemical anymore without dieing. As far as producing the right chemicals to help with depression and the like that's seems to me to be different than being addicted to chemicals. I do think that is possible as well.

[martybess]

I don't think much has changed in human nature. One thing that has changed is our understanding of some of the roots of susceptibility to addictions. For example, certain genes have been identified that are strongly associated with susceptibility to becoming an alcoholic. Other mental disorders subject a person to addictions, or compulsions - such as OCD.

A small part of why I conclude not much has changed as the scripture you refer to is more than 2,000 years old. It would seem that Alma was seeing some issues in his son that needed crossing himself in, right? I think of Nephi and his lamenting about sins that so easily beset upon him.

What has changed is the availability of substances, activities, etc that can be used to "hook" us. Sure, gambling and loose sexuality has been around a very long time, but heroin for $5 a hit has not! Nor was printed or video pornography so widely available for the vast majority of human history! Think of it - it was only 15 years ago that any sort of passing of digital porn was possible. Now, it can be had on countless sites, in picture, and video, even for free. The availability of addictive activities has increased. No longer does a person have to spend time brewing or distilling alcohol. You take your $ to the store, and choose from a wide variety.

Ok so that is why so much more talk about it. That is why so many books about it. Makes sense. What about those who have a tendency to like the same sex? The book uses this as an example. It says the subject in the example is compulsive and addicted as well. Talks about how this person even as a child was attracted to the same sex. You can not say this child was bathed in it as you are saying about other addictions. Everywhere and cheap. There has to be more to it than just that.

[ryanh]

Last time I checked, diabetes was not a psychological issue.

The problem with the pill is the same for any other synthetic product - it cannot completely mimic the chemical balance produced by the brain. That is why you have a zillion unintended side-effects that... you will have to fix with another pill.

Thank you for highlighting the misunderstandings of reality.

ADHD is not solely a "psychological" issue as you seem to think it is. Depression may more often be so, but there are clearly MANY cases that are more rooted in physiological roots than psychological ones. To try to lump all brain related disorders into the 'psychological realm', and ones that people can simply choose to change is flat wrong, and a harmful notion. Try telling someone with OCD or schizophrenia that they can just will themselves out of it. Or better yet! Autism - can they just "choose" to have empathy for another when the functioning of their brain won't let that portion of their Spirit show through the body's actions? Of course not!

And as for "zillion unintended side-effects". That is silly. Plain silly hype that is flatly a falsehood. One perpetuated by many that wish to scare people into following them, buying their products, etc. Studies are mandated in developed countries that clearly show the rates of all types of side effects of every drug. Usually, side effects are of low incidence rates, and not severe if they even are present for a given individual.

Why I take extreme issue with you trying to apply your experiences to all is that in essence, you are saying to those who least need to hear the message: 'if you haven't pulled yourself out of your depression/ADHD/OCD/Autism/schizophrenia, it's because you are weak minded, and simply not as strong as you need to be'. A very dangerous message when we are dealing with disabilities, not choice.

[ryanh]

Ok so that is why so much more talk about it. That is why so many books about it. Makes sense. What about those who have a tendency to like the same sex? The book uses this as an example. It says the subject in the example is compulsive and addicted as well. Talks about how this person even as a child was attracted to the same sex. You can not say this child was bathed in it as you are saying about other addictions. Everywhere and cheap. There has to be more to it than just that.

What are you really trying to get at Marty? Mixing sexual orientation into the questions of addictions is muddying the water. There are sexual additions in hetro and homosexual individuals. I think there are a lot of people (me included) that would take exception to lumping orientation into a compulsion/addiction category. So, what is the root of what you are asking about?

[Guest]

I am confused to what leads to the other. Addictions seems to me to cause one to compulsively do things as if they are being controlled by another. They can not control the action. At least that is what the book says (I think)? On the other hand doing things out of compulsiveness leads one to become addicted. Now they are saying that those addicted to porn have a chemical addiction as well. However as anatess has stated the brain can at least deal with not receiving the chemical anymore without dieing. As far as producing the right chemicals to help with depression and the like that's seems to me to be different than being addicted to chemicals. I do think that is possible as well.

A very good post martybees!

Now, I'm not an expert at this, I've only been reading a lot about this because of my experiences.

Each person are born different from another... that is - different chemical balances that cause certain predispositions. Nobody has the complete picture of the brain yet and what chemicals/neurons induce what. Not even close (my brother is a neurologist). But there are some that are already known, hence we have the drugs/medication to synthesize that function. Medicine is growing by leaps and bounds.

Have you seen Iron Man 2? Yeah, he discovered a new chemical. That is very well possible. We don't know all of the chemical composition in our bodies. The body is a big chemical factory. That's why when you have a new disease you find a host (human or animal) that is immune to that disease - that body has produced the proper chemical balance to fight off the disease. So you take it's blood and synthesize it to produce a cure.

When your body is not completely balanced, you may experience certain predispositions - for example, ADD. Now, this is a compulsion that is caused by your body lacking the proper chemicals.

But, there is also the case where your body is already balanced then you introduce chemicals into your body that puts it out of whack - like Nicotine or Alcohol. This would then lead your body to gain compulsions that it didn't have before.

You can also have the case where your body is not balanced, like ADD, for example, so you take chemicals through medication to balance it out. But because the brain is such a complex thing, those chemicals that you ingested to balance out one problem may cause an imbalance in another (because each person has a unique chemical composition, each person reacts to medication differently). So, yeah, your ADD may have been controlled, but then you become addicted to "speed" so that when you get off the medication, you find that you can't function.

When the disfunction is a physical one - like diabetes - it is not as "risky" to cure it with chemical means than if the disfunction is a psychological one. Chemicals ingested to cure physical disfunctions may be designed to have the least impact to the brain in its delivery. Psychotropic drugs on the other hand, are designed to impact the brain directly.

In Holistic Medicine, the goal is to give your body a chance to heal itself naturally by looking at the body as a whole instead of looking at the body in its separate parts. Therefore, a holistic doctor will explore a cure through nutrition first to give the brain the chance to process chemicals in its natural pattern before attempting a cure through synthetic medicine.

Edited October 20, 2010 by anatess

[Guest]

Thank you for highlighting the misunderstandings of reality.

ADHD is not solely a "psychological" issue as you seem to think it is. Depression may more often be so, but there are clearly MANY cases that are more rooted in physiological roots than psychological ones. To try to lump all brain related disorders into the 'psychological realm', and ones that people can simply choose to change is flat wrong, and a harmful notion. Try telling someone with OCD or schizophrenia that they can just will themselves out of it. Or better yet! Autism - can they just "choose" to have empathy for another when the functioning of their brain won't let that portion of their Spirit show through the body's actions? Of course not!

And as for "zillion unintended side-effects". That is silly. Plain silly hype that is flatly a falsehood. One perpetuated by many that wish to scare people into following them, buying their products, etc. Studies are mandated in developed countries that clearly show the rates of all types of side effects of every drug. Usually, side effects are of low incidence rates, and not severe if they even are present for a given individual.

Why I take extreme issue with you trying to apply your experiences to all is that in essence, you are saying to those who least need to hear the message: 'if you haven't pulled yourself out of your depression/ADHD/OCD/Autism/schizophrenia, it's because you are weak minded, and simply not as strong as you need to be'. A very dangerous message when we are dealing with disabilities, not choice.

I am not a Scientologist, if you are wondering. I do not advocate "ZERO DRUGS".

If you read my posts again - I mention it several times now - that SOME PEOPLE CAN DO IT, SOME PEOPLE CAN'T, SOME PEOPLE DON'T BOTHER TO FIND OUT AND JUST POP A PILL.

In America - most people just pop a pill.

ADHD/OCD/Autism are caused by chemical imbalance. I don't know about you but I don't consider "weak minded" as chemical imbalance.

Maybe you should first take the chip off your shoulder then re-read my posts. You might learn something.

[martybess]

What are you really trying to get at Marty? Mixing sexual orientation into the questions of addictions is muddying the water. There are sexual additions in hetro and homosexual individuals. I think there are a lot of people (me included) that would take exception to lumping orientation into a compulsion/addiction category. So, what is the root of what you are asking about?

"Well according to this book I'm not muddying the water here. And yes she is not an apostle so it's just her take on it but still a BYU professor.

I think a big reason ppl get into compulsive cycles is because they miss home. They miss HF and being there with him. They feel lost. So they try and substitute the loneliness with something else that only brings momentary joy a sort of close but counterfeit joy they once felt.

Quote:

I really hit rock bottom one day when I was sitting in a gay bar and I ordered a soft drink, because of course I never broke the Word of Wisdom. Can you imagine that? There I was, all geared up to commit the sin next to murder, and I was being all careful not to break the Word of Wisdom! I was standing between the "good room" and the "bad room," and I just couldn't believe the contrast. It just seemed so absurd, so ridiculous, and so disgusting. I knew the Church was true, I loved the Lord with all my heart, and here I was sitting in this horrible place where He could never, ever, reach me. And the terrible thing was that I knew—I knew—that even if I left right then I'd be back sometime in the very near future. I was totally out of control. If I had not had a testimony, that is the first time I think I might have just ended it all. As it was, nothing made sense to me. Not anything. It was the most terrible feeling in the world, and I wanted to just vanish altogether—good room, bad room, and all.

In considering actions of self-indulgence, as well as the other steps of the addictive cycle, the common elements in the stories of Ellen (eating disorder), Bill (drugs), and Warren (homosexuality) are striking and important. Despite the apparent differences in these people's lives and personalities, and despite the dissimilarity of their actual addictive behaviors, all three stories fit a common pattern. Each of these actions of self-indulgence could be interpreted as a kind of demonic counterfeit for some aspect of life that is good, wholesome, and ultimately a contributor to the joy for which we are designed: Ellen mentions her preoccupation with the process of nourishment, Bill sees drugs as a substitute for the normal physical alternation of relaxation and alertness, and Warren describes his homosexual behaviors as a misguided search for friendship and romantic love. All three of these people fell into the trap of mistaking an activity that blocks pain with an activity that brings joy and, therefore, of placing that activity at the center of their lives."