Sign of the dove vs the form of the dove.

[CommanderSouth]

My question of the moment is in the topic of the sign vs the form of the dove. The prophet Joseph taught the only form of the holy spirit was that of a personage. The gospel accounts of the baptism of Christ don't explicitly say the hg was in the form of a dove. Ironically 1 nephi 11 27 and 2 nephi 31 8 seem to more explicitly say the hg was on the form of a dove. What might I study to better reconcile theaw passages with the teachings of the prophet?

[captmoroniRM]

Take a look at the Bible dictionary and the Guide to the Scriptures, available on LDS.org. They explain that the Sign of the Dove is a pre-arranged sign as a means to testify of truth in a form that Satan cannot duplicate. It is a physical manifestation of the presence of the Holy Ghost (as he is a spirit). Those present at the baptism of Christ saw the savior in the water, heard the voice of God, and the sign of the Dove was given to signify that the Holy Ghost himself was present. He, however, did not change form, as the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. Similar signs were also given to Abraham, and its very likely that other prophets were given this time since Adam.

Search around LDS.org. Quite a few good links available.

[mikbone]

Bible Dictionary: Dove, Sign of

The idea that the Holy Ghost can appear as a bird (dove) is a misconception.

Matthew 3:16

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

D&C 93:15

And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

If you look at the Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2, Figure 7 you can see what the Sign of the Dove actually is... Link to Facsimile No. 2

You have to turn the facsimile upside down to see it properly but you see a seated man (GOD) revealing the sign of the dove to Abraham. Take notice of the seated man's arm positioning. This is the sign of the dove. When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding his personage of spirit in this position. He was not a dove.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 276

"The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence."

Of curious note, the officiator of a true baptism holds his body in a similar position...

[martybess]

I feel stupid right now. I did not know any of this or if I did I can't recall it.

From the facsimile:

"grand Key-words of the Priesthood; as, also, the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham, in the form of a dove."

You have to turn the facsimile upside down to see it properly but you see a seated man (GOD) revealing the sign of the dove to Abraham. Take notice of the seated man's arm positioning. This is the sign of the dove. When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding his personage of spirit in this position. He was not a dove.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 276

"The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence."

Of curious note, the officiator of a true baptism holds his body in a similar position...

Thanks!!!

[martybess]

Not really part of this thread but does anyone know what the "tree" or "candle stick" looking symbol is at G-d's feet? (Same Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2, Figure 7).

[Just_A_Guy]

I always just figured it was Abraham.

[martybess]

When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding his personage of spirit in this position.

If I understand what you are saying here mikbone is that when it says:

Matthew 3:16 "God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him"

D&C 93:15 "and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him"

the writers knew the "sign" of the HG and the HG was standing in that position giving that "sign" at Christ's baptism? If this is the case then the writers knew that the readers who knew the "mysteries of heaven" would know what the writer was really saying?

Am I reading to much into this whole thing? Points of pondering on my part of course.

[mikbone]

If I understand what you are saying here mikbone is that when it says:

Matthew 3:16 "God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him"

D&C 93:15 "and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him"

the writers knew the "sign" of the HG and the HG was standing in that position giving that "sign" at Christ's baptism? If this is the case then the writers knew that the readers who knew the "mysteries of heaven" would know what the writer was really saying?

I believe you are correct. Especially since some of the "mysteries of heaven" are found within the temple endowment ceremony...

[captmoroniRM]

I’ve often thought that one of the roles of the Holy Spirit (not the role, but one of the roles) is to be a mediator between us and our Heavenly Mother (as Jesus is a mediator between us and God). Heavenly Mother is the big mystery of heaven imo. That the feminine nurturing/comforting aspects of the Spirit come from Her. Birth is also associated with the feminine, so that the sign of the dove, and the dove at various baptisms feels like a feminine presence to me.

When the dove appears at Jesus’ baptism, and introduces him as “my beloved Son”

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Everyone assumes that this voice is the voice of Heavenly Father, but I think that it might actually be the voice of Heavenly Mother. Jesus was not baptized to become Heavenly Father’s Son – he was already that. He was not baptized to take away sin… Jesus was perhaps baptized to become Heavenly Mother’s child, as prior to his baptism he was born not to Heavenly Mother, but to a handmaid. ( Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord). Baptism/birth is a process of children adopting parents.

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Just as Eve in her perfect form was unable to have children, I think Heavenly Mother in her perfect form does not beget children – that baptism is the means through which our Heavenly Parents have children, that handmaids (so to speak) bear us and raise us up until the age of accountability, and that only after we are accountable, have the experience to make an informed choice, can be become children of Heavenly Parents…. I think that all the barren women in the scriptures are symbolic of Heavenly Mother being our mother through baptism…

scroll down to the answer to the ? about polygamy for more info:

Hi, I'm Jamie | Mormon.org

Not to sound rude, but that is a lot of speculation and doesn't have much revealed doctrinal backing.

There is no scriptural backing or modern revelation to support the idea of the Holy Ghost as a mediator between us and our Heavenly Mother. The revealed roles of the Holy Ghost are to testify of Christ, and of truth, as well as to guide us throughout our life. Second, every prophet and apostle to my knowledge as taught that it is the voice of our Heavenly Father that bore witness of Christ at the baptism. It parallels other moments where the Father introduced the Son, like in the First Vision. Third, the scriptures are clear that Christ was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, and set the example for us, and nothing to do with our relationship, even in a symbolic way, with our Heavenly Mother. We are her children already, just as we are the children of our Heavenly Father.

All in all, very little has been revealed about our Heavenly Mother and, though members of the church allowed to have their own personal "doctrines" (I know I have my fair share of 'West Doctrines') we need to be careful to ensure that they jive with the revealed word of God. Also, if you are going to expound upon them in a public forum, make sure you make it absolutely clear that they are your own ideas, as sites like these may be frequented by those who are still in need of gospel Milk.

[Justice]

Just as Eve in her perfect form was unable to have children, I think Heavenly Mother in her perfect form does not beget children...

Eve was unable to have children because she was "innocent."

Genesis 1:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Then...

Genesis 3:

22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

My first question would be who is "us" above, since it would require both male and female?

Eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil changed them. Transgressing God's law removed their innocence.

Genesis 3:

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Why didn't they know they were naked before?

I think it's a bit odd to think that Heavenly Parents can't have children, when that's one of the main teachings of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the reward given to those who are exalted.

I would seriously study and pray about this. It's seems very odd that Adam and Eve gained this ability in the Garden but it will be lost in the resurrection.

I very much disagree. I think having children is the main thing that will separate those in the Celestial Kingdom from those in any other kingdom. It will even differentiate those in a lesser glory in the Celestial Kingdom from those in the greatest degree. That is why being married is a requirement before being exalted. If parents can simply adopt children, then it seems there would be no need for the requirement.

[mikbone]

I’ve often thought that one of the roles of the Holy Spirit (not the role, but one of the roles) is to be a mediator between us and our Heavenly Mother (as Jesus is a mediator between us and God). Heavenly Mother is the big mystery of heaven imo. That the feminine nurturing/comforting aspects of the Spirit come from Her. Birth is also associated with the feminine, so that the sign of the dove, and the dove at various baptisms feels like a feminine presence to me.

When the dove appears at Jesus’ baptism, and introduces him as “my beloved Son”

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Everyone assumes that this voice is the voice of Heavenly Father, but I think that it might actually be the voice of Heavenly Mother. Jesus was not baptized to become Heavenly Father’s Son – he was already that. He was not baptized to take away sin… Jesus was perhaps baptized to become Heavenly Mother’s child, as prior to his baptism he was born not to Heavenly Mother, but to a handmaid. ( Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord). Baptism/birth is a process of children adopting parents.

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

I like the way you are thinking. I don't agree with it, but I like when people open their minds and have questions...

I wish that we understood more about the Holy Ghost and his role. I also wish that we had much more doctrine concerning Heavenly Mother...

I feel confident that it was the Father that introduced Christ during the baptism. Althought I suspect that Heavenly Mother was present.

We could have a whole different thread about spiritually begotten though...

This is how I see it.

1) My spirit was begotten by Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father. *Fact*

The following are suppositions/questions that I have.

a) was everyone in our pre-mortal existence spiritually begotten of the same heavenly mother? Polygamy and all... I'm leaning to the idea that there was only one heavenly mother that was in our pre-mortal existence but that Father may have had other groups of spiritual children with other heavenly mothers, in other spheres.

b) I also think that Jehoavh may not have been a spiritual child of Elohim, that the sire of Jehovah's spirit may have been what we could consider as Heavenly Grandfather.

2) My body was begotten by my earthly parents *Fact*

The following are suppositions/questions that I have.

a) Now you could easily argue that my earthly parents were Adam & Eve

b) Building on the last statement you could just as easily argue that my earthly parents were the personages that created Adam and Eve.

c) I am unsure who created Adam and Eve it could have been Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. But I think that more likely it was Jehovah and his spouse.

3) At Baptism/Conversion/Everlasting Covenant Sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise we are spiritually begotten of Christ. Mosiah 5:7, D&C 93:22

The following are suppositions/questions that I have.

a) This spiritual rebirth trumps the spiritual birth of Elohim, in effect we become Children of Christ.

b) Through this spiritual rebirth we become a member of the church of the Firstborn D&C 93:22. Essentially we become a "firstborn of Christ".

c) This same relationship that we have with Jehovah/Christ. Is the exact relationship that Jehovah has with Elohim.

[mikbone]

another interesting note, is that after Jesus' baptism Luke attempts to explain what "this is my beloved Son" means by reciting a genealogy... The interesting thing is that the family tree Luke gives, is different than the one Mathew gives. Many people believe that the difference is because Mathew gives the genealogy of Jesus' step-father, while Luke gives a matriarchal genealogy... so... why does Luke feel prompted to give the mother's genealogy at this point in time?

To fulfill prophecy?

have a ref for that (that we are "begotten", and not adopted? the only scriptures I have found state that we are adopted, and that Jesus is the only begotten - but if you have something that states otherwise, I would love to see it!)

Nice throwdown! And well done. I'll grant you that it is not plainly found within the quad. But I will honor official declarations and hymns as scripture.

The Family: A Proclamation to the World

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Hymn 292

In the heav’ns are parents single?

No, the thought makes reason stare!

Truth is reason; truth eternal

Tells me I’ve a mother there.

When I leave this frail existence,

When I lay this mortal by,

Father, Mother, may I meet you

In your royal courts on high?

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Origin of Man, By the First Presidency of the Church, Nov 1909

“God created man in His own image.” This is just as true of the spirit as it is of the body, which is only the clothing of the spirit, its complement—the two together constituting the soul. The spirit of man is in the form of man, and the spirits of all creatures are in the likeness of their bodies. This was plainly taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith (see D&C 77:2).

Luke's genealogy tells us who Adam was a son of, although check the JST for who created Adam :)

Adam was the son of God. Yes the JST "...who was formed of God, and the first man upon the earth" is irritating. You know full and well that I detest the idea that Adam was formed/created as opposed to born.

Edited October 25, 2010 by mikbone

[captmoroniRM]

Mosiah 5:7, if you read it in context doesn't specifically regard baptism. The covenants they made paralell the baptismal covenants, but it is the covenant the Mulekites and Nephites made after hearing King Benjamin's discourse, and being moved by the spirit to repent of their sins. The atonement of Christ changed their hearts giving them no more disposition to do evil. King Benjamin took their names and appointed priests to teach the people the commandments of God and remind them of the covenants they made, but there is no record of baptism taking place at that time.

When Alma and his people escaped from the Lamanites and found the the Mulekites, King Mosiah gave Alma permission to actually organize the Church of God, and baptize them. That took place about 4 years later.

In addition, Mosiah 5:7 refers specifically to becoming children of Christ, through repentance and obedience, and how we become spiritually begotten, or born again. The spiritual "begottening" of baptism deals more with the symbolism associated with baptism (death, burial, resurrection/rebirth) and becoming spiritually adpoted children of Christ. Whether or not a person is baptized or not, they are still the spirit children of a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. See the Proclamation on the Family for that one, as mikbone posted above.

You said:

Consider that we might become children through obediance, not through Heavenly Mother getting pregnant...... just consider the possibility? imo becoming a child through obediance is a much more beautiful way to become a child... Eve was cursed - in pain you will bring forth children - pregnancy is the cursed way of having children...

Its not to often that people refer to the miracle of giving birth as a "cursed" way of doing it. Eve herself said "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed." Sounds like it was a curse she was willing to bear. And as for how perfect beings have children, that falls under the "not yet revealed, but not important to our salvation" category.

Lastly, To quote James E. Talmage, regarding the geneologies:

Two genealogical records purporting to give the pedigree of Jesus are found in the New Testament, one in the first chapter of Matthew, the other in the third chapter of Luke. These records present several apparent discrepancies, but such have been satisfactorily reconciled by the research of specialists in Jewish genealogy. No detailed analysis of the matter will be attempted here; but it should be borne in mind that the consensus of judgment on the part of investigators is that Matthew's account is that of the royal lineage, establishing the order of sequence among the legal successors to the throne of David, while the account given by Luke is a personal pedigree, demonstrating descent from David without adherence to the line of legal succession to the throne through primogeniture or nearness of kin." Luke's record is regarded by many, however, as the pedigree of Mary, while Matthew's is accepted as that of Joseph. The all important fact to be remembered is that the Child promised by Gabriel to Mary, the virginal bride of Joseph, would be born in the royal line. A personal genealogy of Joseph was essentially that of Mary also, for they were cousins./ Joseph is named as son of Jacob by Matthew, and as son of Heli by Luke; but Jacob and Heli were brothers, and it appears that one of the two was the father of Joseph and the other the father of Mary and therefore father-in-law to Joseph^ That Mary was of Davidic descent is plainly set forth in many scriptures; for since Jesus was to be born of Mary, yet was not begotten by Joseph, who was the reputed, and, according to the law of the Jews, the legal, father, the blood of David's posterity was given to the body of Jesus through Mary alone. Our Lord, though repeatedly addressed as Son of David, never repudiated the title but accepted it as rightly applied to Himself.6 Apostolic testimony stands in positive assertion of the royal heirship of Christ through earthly lineage, as witness the affirmation of Paul, the scholarly Pharisee: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;" and again: "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead."

The geneologies quoted are the same, except for the last few where it diverges. Mary and Joseph were cousins, and both descendants of David, which as Talmage said, fulfilled prophecy. It also shows that Christ really had claim to be King of the Jews, if it weren't for Roman opression.

[mikbone]

you do recognize that there is no "begetting" which is mentioned as the means to Their parenthood? If we look at our current families, the relashonship between husband/wife trumps the relashonship between parent/child... the husband/wife relashonship is beautiful and is not formed through birth, it is formed through choice...

(Guide to the Scriptures | B Bridegroom.:Entry)

BRIDEGROOM. See also Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is symbolized in the scriptures as the Bridegroom. The Church is his symbolic bride.

Ten virgins went forth to meet the Bridegroom, Matt. 25:1–13. He that has the bride is the Bridegroom, John 3:27–30. Blessed are they who are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb, Rev. 19:5–10. Be ready at the coming of the Bridegroom, D&C 33:17. Make ready for the Bridegroom, D&C 65:3.

the church is symbolized as a bridegroom, our relashonship like one of marriage - not a birth, a covenant.... Yes, birth can be beautiful, but I think weddings are better...

I don't know the exact mechanism in which Heavenly Father and Mother 'begat' our spirits but I do believe that they both took part in the 'creation' of our spirits.

But I do agree with you that a spiritual adoption by Jehovah trumps the spirit birth by Elohim, as previously stated in post #14 3a & 3b

For example Lucifer is a spirit child of Elohim. Abraham, Adam, etc. have become spiritually reborn children of Christ through the atonement. The 2nd option if obviously better. But you can't get to option 2 unless you previously resided within the first subset.

[William0112]

Reference is made to Facsimile No 2, Figure 7.

Look very carefully and you will see - the right arm hand held in front and the left arm raised to the square.

For those who attend the Temple, this will be familiar ......