Faith but never a chance for baptism

[beforHim]

This might be a scenario which has been discussed and brught up before, maybe even all the time, but I don't know. Anyway, here's the scenario:

Supose someone at some point in their life has a true co vesrion/repentance/is justified/whatever. At that very moment they pass away (say a heart atack its them, they truely convert n the gurney, and then they pass away). Now suppose that for some odd reason, nobody ever does a proxy baptism for them, ever. Highly unlikely, esp. if they were in a highly "mormonised" ( new word) area I know, but let's say it happens.

They get a chance to know Jesus in the telestial kingdom, right? OK, let's say they take advantage of it and they get to know him. But since no one ever gets baptised for them, do they eventually get to "go up" to the next level anyway? Supposing they never got baptised on earth and never get a proxy baptism, yet they know Jesus? Maybe they can then get baptised in their level of heaven?

I'm sure I've got this all wrong, but this is why I'm asking the qestion. I don't want to et t al wrong, but to know the truth. This isn't some trick I as a "troll" have "figured out". It actually stems directly from questions about faith vs. works I've had in "traditional" Christianity settings. Anyway, have at it! :)

[NeuroTypical]

Well, the basic answer, is that God didn't set up the system where basic human error could mess it up.

We believe that during Christ's reign on earth after he comes again, everyone who needs the earthly saving ordinances will get them. That includes people we "forgot" to baptize, problems with lost or incorrect records, babies sacrificed on remote islands to pagan gods right before the earthquake killed everyone, or any other situation you can imagine where well-meaning Mormons might not be aware of the need.

I've tried hard to find a loophole in this Gospel, a way to game the system, or evidence that God's perfect blend of mercy and justice won't reach everyone somehow. Haven't been able to find it yet. Good question though.

LM

[rameumptom]

D&C 137 was a vision that Joseph Smith had, wherein he saw the heavens and his unbaptized deceased brother Alvin there. This is what the scripture tells us:

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. 2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;

3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

In the Millennium, one of the big works that will occur is temple work. Brigham Young envisioned hundreds of temples across the land, working day and night, to bring salvation to all those who desire it. The one thing that will differ in the Millennium is that genealogy will be different. As many people do not have actual records existing on earth for them, they will instead go to those doing the baptisms, give their information, and will be baptized by proxy at that time. It may very well take the full thousand years to perform all these baptisms. In the meantime, those righteous among them will be eligible to receive all the blessings of the Celestial Kingdom, as was revealed to Joseph Smith

[beforHim]

Loudmouth Mormon: So why is my scenario not a "loop hole" is what I'm wondering?

========= ========== =============== =============== ============

All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

So it's like molinism, were God knows all counterfactuals? If you've no ide what I'm talking about, look it up on wikipedia, "Molinism". I'm good with that, mostly.

But this then contradicts wat you typed next:

In the Millennium, one of the big works that will occur is temple work. Brigham Young envisioned hundreds of temples across the land, working day and night, to bring salvation to all those who desire it. The one thing that will differ in the Millennium is that genealogy will be different. As many people do not have actual records existing on earth for them, they will instead go to those doing the baptisms, give their information, and will be baptized by proxy at that time. It may very well take the full thousand years to perform all these baptisms.

First you say (via quoting D&C) that those who'll never get a chance to be baptised and such can still be in the Cellestial Kingdom if they would have been given the chance. But then this paragraph you typed seems to say tat everyone will get a chance.

I realize I might be being picky, but everyone has their "sticking point", so to speak. Thx for being patient and providing knowledge on this subject. :)

[NeuroTypical]

Loudmouth Mormon: So why is my scenario not a "loop hole" is what I'm wondering?

Because your scenario where "nobody ever does a proxy baptism for them, ever", does not exist in the LDS sphere of understanding. From what we can tell, yes, everybody who needs one gets a proxy baptism, and nobody goes without. Even the crotchety old antimormon on the corner who manages a deathbed conversion before he croaks, and nobody notices.

LM

Edited November 4, 2010 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Just_A_Guy]

They get a chance to know Jesus in the telestial kingdom, right? OK, let's say they take advantage of it and they get to know him. But since no one ever gets baptised for them, do they eventually get to "go up" to the next level anyway? Supposing they never got baptised on earth and never get a proxy baptism, yet they know Jesus? Maybe they can then get baptised in their level of heaven?

I hope you won't mind if I try to correct a bit of a misconception here. It is not Mormon doctrine that one can "level up" heavens. What happens is that when we die, we go to a temporary spirit world where we wait for the Second Coming, the Resurrection, and (if appropriate) for someone to do our temple ordinances. The final judgment, where we are permanently assigned to a kingdom of glory, may not come until after the Millennium is over.

First you say (via quoting D&C) that those who'll never get a chance to be baptised and such can still be in the Cellestial Kingdom if they would have been given the chance. But then this paragraph you typed seems to say tat everyone will get a chance.

Yeah, one has to be careful about making assumptions beyond what the text says. The text doesn't actually say "those who are never, ever, even posthumously baptized"; it says that (from Joseph Smith's perspective) Alvin specifically had not been baptized. Incidentally, see the references in verse 5 to Joseph's father and mother? They were still alive when Smith received the vision (1836). So Smith wasn't seeing the Celestial Kingdom as it was at the time of the revelation; he's seeing what would be at some future date.

There is no room, in Mormon doctrine, for entrance to the Celestial Kingdom without baptism. But, to indulge in counterfactuals for a moment: If God lets an unbaptized person into the CK, He's violating His own laws and is therefore no longer just. If He doesn't let a righteous person in because of circumstances beyond that person's control, He is no longer merciful. Either way, God ceases to be God. (How's that for a hypothetical? )

Edited November 4, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[beforHim]

Because your scenario where "nobody ever does a proxy baptism for them, ever", does not exist in the LDS sphere of understanding. From what we can tell, yes, everybody who needs one gets a proxy baptism, and nobody goes without. Even the crotchety old antimormon on the corner who manages a deathbed conversion before he croaks, and nobody notices.

LM

OK, cool. That's what I figured it'd boil down to. Which is fine.

I talked to a Catholic Philosopher one tme (a proff at my college) and asked many questions about Catholocism. About the whole communion thing for those who are allergic to wheat, he said tat you can take the wine alone and it be fine, or voice versa, if one were allergic to grapes. I asked wat if one were alergic to both? He smiled with that "Well, you know. . ."kind of smile and said, "That's highly unlikly". So I left it at that.

A Church of Christ member told me, when I asked the same question- a person is going to the baptismal pool, but then has a heart attack right before being dunked, are they saved? And he basically said that God would not let tha happen to a saved person, or that the person was not meant to be saved.

I'm ok with these answers, as I'm guessing there are some like this somewere in my thinking. I have yet to find them, but I'm only 29, so hopefully I've got a lot of time to think.

[beforHim]

I hope you won't mind if I try to correct a bit of a misconception here. It is not Mormon doctrine that one can "level up" heavens. What happens is that when we die, we go to a temporary spirit world where we wait for the Second Coming, the Resurrection, and (if appropriate) for someone to do our temple ordinances. The final judgment, where we are permanently assigned to a kingdom of glory, may not come until after the Millennium is over.

Oh by all means, please correct me! That's why I'm here, to learn. I ask intriguing questions, hoping to learn all sorts of stuff. So thx for the knowledge! :)

Yeah, one has to be careful about making assumptions beyond what the text says. The text doesn't actually say "those who are never, ever, even posthumously baptized"; it says that (from Joseph Smith's perspective) Alvin specifically had not been baptized. Incidentally, see the references in verse 5 to Joseph's father and mother? They were still alive when Smith received the vision (1836). So Smith wasn't seeing the Celestial Kingdom as it was at the time of the revelation; he's seeing what would be at some future date.

Makes total sense if Jo was a prophet.

There is no room, in Mormon doctrine, for entrance to the Celestial Kingdom without baptism.

But why- it seems so. . .arbitrary. I mean, I understand what a) the ritual itself, and b) the person performing the ritual- I understand what these are supposed to get across. So if I understand that, then why MUST a physical action be taken if the understanding and the counterfactual of "I would have had I gotten the chance, so basically I did anyway" is there.

But, to indulge in counterfactuals for a moment: If God lets an unbaptized person into the CK, He's violating His own laws and is therefore no longer just. If He doesn't let a righteous person in because of circumstances beyond that person's control, He is no longer merciful. Either way, God ceases to be God. (How's that for a hypothetical? )

Again, if the spiritual aspect is basically there, why is God's hands tied down to an actual action? This is what I'm wondering.

[Dravin]

Makes total sense if Jo was a prophet.

You probably don't mean anything by it (and its possibly a typo with you leaving off "seph"), but Joe Smith (and variations) due to current and historical use of the diminutive of Joseph Smith's name in a derogatory manner is often taken as having derogatory intent. Just a heads up.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Dravin

[beforHim]

You probably don't mean anything by it (and its possibly a typo with you leaving off "seph"), but Joe Smith (and variations) due to current and historical use of the diminutive of Joseph Smith's name in a derogatory manner is often taken as having derogatory intent. Just a heads up.

Thx for the heads up.

[bigfoot]

Loudmouth Mormon: So why is my scenario not a "loop hole" is what I'm wondering?

the reason why there is no "loop hole" is that during the millenium, we will have a perfect being directing the work. Jesus Christ will be at the head of the work, and he will make sure and remember every soul.

[Just_A_Guy]

But why- it seems so. . .arbitrary. I mean, I understand what a) the ritual itself, and b) the person performing the ritual- I understand what these are supposed to get across. So if I understand that, then why MUST a physical action be taken if the understanding and the counterfactual of "I would have had I gotten the chance, so basically I did anyway" is there.

Again, if the spiritual aspect is basically there, why is God's hands tied down to an actual action? This is what I'm wondering.

I don't know if I have a good answer for you. In general, of course, being willing is not always enough. Jesus was willing to go to earth and perform His Atonement, but if He hadn't actually done it then His mere willingness would have availed us nothing.

But as to why the specific baptismal (and temple) covenants with Jesus Christ cannot be made without also performing certain acts as tokens of those covenants: I really haven't come across a completely satisfactory answer to that, yet. It seems to me that perhaps there's some kind of deep, almost mystical tie between making a covenant of obedience with the spirit and simultaneously making a gesture of obedience with the body.

For me, it is enough to know that the law exists and that all who wish to, may comply.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[NeuroTypical]

Again, if the spiritual aspect is basically there, why is God's hands tied down to an actual action? This is what I'm wondering.

I have not got the faintest clue why God set it up that way. But scripture is pretty clear on the issue - Peter, John the Baptist, Christ, all are pretty clearly on record that repentance and baptism go hand in hand for removing sin from mankind so we can get back into God's presence after death. Some of Christianity ignores the issue, some parts figure that heaven just isn't for everyone, other parts of Christianity get around the physical part with a spiritual interpretation of those scriptures. We Mormons figure they're talking actual physical baptism by immersion, just like Christ had done.

LM

[beforHim]

IIt seems to me that perhaps there's some kind of deep, almost mystical tie between making a covenant of obedience with the spirit and simultaneously making a gesture of obedience with the body.

I actually totally agree with this, which is why I figured Paul, in Romans, said we had to "believe in our heart" and "confess with our mouths". Abraham believed God, and was circumsized. The blood had to be applied to the doorpost.

The last question I'm left with is "Physical + Spiritual I agree, but why a specific physical?" That's were I can't get past. why must it be that specific spiritual act. I'm not asking you to answer this, I'm telling you which part I'm stuck on (well not me, since I don't believe someone must be baptized, but if this were true [ends up being true, I should say] that's were I'd be stuck on).

[rameumptom]

Remember, D&C 137 states all will be judged according to the dictates of their heart had they known the gospel in this life. So, if a deceased person is baptized, but his/her heart is not convinced/converted to the fullness of God's truth, the baptism will not take affect. The person can receive a lower level of heaven, which does not require baptism, which fits the desires of their heart.

We do not know who will accept the baptism, and so have no choice but to offer it to everyone who has died. Whether they accept it or not is between them and God.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

This might be a scenario which has been discussed and brught up before, maybe even all the time, but I don't know. Anyway, here's the scenario:

Supose someone at some point in their life has a true co vesrion/repentance/is justified/whatever. At that very moment they pass away (say a heart atack its them, they truely convert n the gurney, and then they pass away). Now suppose that for some odd reason, nobody ever does a proxy baptism for them, ever. Highly unlikely, esp. if they were in a highly "mormonised" ( new word) area I know, but let's say it happens.

They get a chance to know Jesus in the telestial kingdom, right? OK, let's say they take advantage of it and they get to know him. But since no one ever gets baptised for them, do they eventually get to "go up" to the next level anyway? Supposing they never got baptised on earth and never get a proxy baptism, yet they know Jesus? Maybe they can then get baptised in their level of heaven?

I'm sure I've got this all wrong, but this is why I'm asking the qestion. I don't want to et t al wrong, but to know the truth. This isn't some trick I as a "troll" have "figured out". It actually stems directly from questions about faith vs. works I've had in "traditional" Christianity settings. Anyway, have at it! :)

The Millennial Reign will be where all those who had not had an opportunity to be baptized by immersion (whether in this mortal life, or in the Spirit World), will have the opportunity then.

This is from the Gospel Principles Manual:

The Work of the Church during the Millennium

• What are the two great works that will be done during the Millennium?

There will be two great works for members of the Church during the Millennium: temple work and missionary work. Temple work involves the ordinances that are necessary for exaltation. These include baptism, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the temple ordinances—the endowment, temple marriage, and the sealing together of family units.

Many people have died without receiving these ordinances. People on the earth must perform these ordinances for them. This work is now being done in the temples of the Lord. There is too much work to finish before the Millennium begins, so it will be completed during that time. Resurrected beings will help us correct the mistakes we have made in doing research concerning our dead ancestors. They will also help us find the information we need to complete our records. (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:167, 251–52.)

The other great work during the Millennium will be missionary work. The gospel will be taught with great power to all people. Eventually there will be no need to teach others the first principles of the gospel because “they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord” (Jeremiah 31:34).