Quick Philosophical Question

[Dr T]

What is your take on hell/separation from God? If you believe, for example, that you reside with God in the Celestial Kingdom, but not in the other two levels of heaven, or if you believe in hell as eternal separation from God, how do you reconcile the idea of God's omnipresence (being in all places at all time)? What I'm asking is, "If one of God's traits in omnipresence, is it possible to be separated from Him ever?"

THanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

God is omnipresent in the sense that He can sense what is going on everywhere, or that His presence can be felt anywhere and everywhere, through communications, but not in the sense that He is actually everywhere all at the same time.

Or in other words, our heavenly Father has a physical body, and where His body is, He is, but He can also sense what is going on everywhere else in the universe even when He isn’t there.

And btw, the fact that God can sense what is going on everywhere does not mean that we can also sense what is going on everywhere, unless we become like God, so if you want to go where God actually is you have to go to the place where He is, unless He chooses to come to you.

[Jason]

Dr. T.

That's a question I've never thought of, and it certainly presents a real problem. Ray's quick answer is really inadequate, and does not do justice to the problem in my view.

[prisonchaplain]

What is your take on hell/separation from God? If you believe, for example, that you reside with God in the Celestial Kingdom, but not in the other two levels of heaven, or if you believe in hell as eternal separation from God, how do you reconcile the idea of God's omnipresence (being in all places at all time)? What I'm asking is, "If one of God's traits in omnipresence, is it possible to be separated from Him ever?"

THanks,

Dr. T

It's an interesting question you raise--and not one specific to Mormons, so I'll jump in.

There is a common model used by evangelicals when presenting the gospel. It shows a person, a chasm, and God on the other side. The chasm is sin--that which separates us from God. Then the cross is shown as that which bridges the chasm, and allows us to reconcile with God.

In John 14:6 Jesus says He is the one Way to the Father.

So, even now, billions are "separated from God." In hell, it will surely be likewise. So, to say God is omnipresent, and yet much of his creation is separated from him presents a paradox. I think Ray touched on an understanding: God is cognizant of all creation, separated or not. Furthermore, quite often God is with us, but we do not sense him at all. Even believers experience "the dark night of the soul."

I'm not sure we have a logical problem here, so much as a difficulty putting into words the metaphysical realities of our God, "who's ways are not our ways."

[Serg]

It is a magnificent question,

1) God(Father,Jesus OR the HS) is present everywhere not because of the Holy Spirit but because He resides ABOVE time, and everything is present to Him(as in His eternal abode everything is One Big Urim and Tumim, etc..)

2) I dont believe Ray is wrong, he just covered one aspect of the response(correctly).

If by some reason you do not agree with me(and this is not meant as an offense, rather as a sincere thought) that God's omnipresence is based osn the dimension in which He lives, and you try to say that is the Holy Spirit factor which makes Him God(omnipresent), what? dont you know the Holy Spirit is a son of His? Then, do you want me to believe that before he begat the Holy Spirit(and raised him upto where He is) He was NOT omnipresent while being exalted? Thats a tough problem.

[Dr T]

Thank you all for your ideas on this. Your responses are bringing up other questions for me. I want to wait for other ideas on my OP before I get into those though. I look forward to reading others ideas!

Perplexed,

Dr. T

[Dr T]

God is omnipresent in the sense that He can sense what is going on everywhere, or that His presence can be felt anywhere and everywhere, through communications, but not in the sense that He is actually everywhere all at the same time.

Or in other words, our heavenly Father has a physical body, and where His body is, He is, but He can also sense what is going on everywhere else in the universe even when He isn’t there.

And btw, the fact that God can sense what is going on everywhere does not mean that we can also sense what is going on everywhere, unless we become like God, so if you want to go where God actually is you have to go to the place where He is, unless He chooses to come to you.

Since it appears that this thread has gotten all the responses it's going to get, I'll ask my questions. I'll start with Ray. You are saying that God's "presence can be felt anywhere and everywhere" can His presence be felt in hell? On what do you base this?

You say He has a physical body I thought the Bible says "God is Spirit." Yes I am familiar with the anthropomorphisms like the "right hand of God", etc but if we take that as literal, then should we believe God is a bird too? Please educate me on your ideas.

You also say, "Unless we become like God." Wasn't that why Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven? I know, that is a whole other thread...

"If you want to go where God actually is, you have to go to the place where He is" I just want to quote that... What about "where two or more are gathered in My name"? or Ps 139:7:12?

Looking forward to your ideas,

Dr. T

[Serg]

I know the questions are for Ray, but i believe I can jump in until he does.

QUOTE:"Since it appears that this thread has gotten all the responses it's going to get, I'll ask my questions. I'll start with Ray. You are saying that God's "presence can be felt anywhere and everywhere" can His presence be felt in hell? On what do you base this? ":QUOTE

- His presence can be "felt" in the extent in which they know He can see them and KNOW every site of the whole created(or selfexistant) universe. But He cant be felt over there(physically).

QUOTE:"You say He has a physical body I thought the Bible says "God is Spirit." Yes I am familiar with the anthropomorphisms like the "right hand of God", etc but if we take that as literal, then should we believe God is a bird too? Please educate me on your ideas. ": QUOTE

- If we were to describe God(phisically) as the Word describes Him to be, we must say that He is a Spirit, that He is Light, that He is fire, that He is soap, that He is huracane, that He is a dove, that He is...

Anthropomorphism provides a better way to describe Him. He is a Spirit clothed with a perfect body. The Holy Ghost is a Spirit BUT was REPRESENTED(otherwise, who could have seen him?) as a DOVE to simbolize His presence there. All other attributes(light, fire, soap) are describing aspects of God'sministry(light-for truth, fire-for power, soap-for total redemption).

QUOTE:"You also say, "Unless we become like God." Wasn't that why Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven? I know, that is a whole other thread...":QUOTE

- No, the Scriptures do not say that Lucipher was cast out because he wanted to become like God, rather, because he wanted the already-attained-glory of God(the father). Also, wanted to destroy the free will of men, to assure their salvation. Inm conclusion, he could have repented and not persue his plans, but as he DID convinced others and proceded to fight God Himself, he was cast out. If wanting to be "as your Father in Heaven is perfect"was Lucipher'scause for being cast out, then Christ suggested we do the same(Mt.5:48), also if we take Isaiah's text describing the cause of Lucipher's defet as being because he wanted "to sit on the Mount of the Mighty(trone of God0, then Christ again, promised us the same blasphemy(Apc.3:21).

QUOTE: "If you want to go where God actually is, you have to go to the place where He is" I just want to quote that... What about "where two or more are gathered in My name"? or Ps 139:7:12? ":QUOTE

-When here Ray is refferin to God, he is indeed reffering to one of them, the Father. Who is not in this world(nor the Son), in that extent, yes, in order for people to be in His LITERAL< presence, they must get to where they are. Now, the other half, in the matter of "where there are two or three"gathered, there He is, is reffering to God the Holy Ghost, He is also God, hence He is present, also, where two or three are gathered in HIS name(the name of the TREE) although God the Holy Ghost is literally there, also the Fatehr and Christ are there through their influence, and knowledge, and approval of such reunion. Just as Paul said to one of the Churches, that "although I am not present, Im there in the spirit". That, aluding to his approval of such reunion although he could not always be there literally.

Hope that does it, until Ray comes