House extends Bush-era tax cuts for families making under $250,000

[Just_A_Guy]

So it trickles down like it did in the 1980's?

No. You're right. Corporations don't employ anyone.

[Just_A_Guy]

That changed the world, but was it due to the wealthy investments behind it, or due to improvements in manufacturing?

I would submit that, generally speaking, factories could not be re-tooled to take advantage of those manufacturing improvements without the investment of capital.

[FunkyTown]

No. You're right. Corporations don't employ anyone.

Here's the funny(Interesting. Not funny ha ha) thing: Some of the people most responsible for improving our lives in the past century have belonged to corporations but some of the people most responsible for making our lives worse in the past century belonged to corporations.

Henry Ford: "Make the best product possible at the lowest price possible paying the highest wages possible." - Henry Ford was a great man. The Assembly Line changed the world. He was also ethical in his hiring.

Then, there are those companies(Whom I cannot name because I am at work right now and don't want trouble.) whose investments and developments have done everything from:

Supported dictatorships - Did modern corporations build tanks for the Nazis? I would say if you looked those up, you would see they have. Are modern diamond companies working with African dictators who have killed hundreds, thousands or more? If you looked up that, you would see they have.

Environmental catastrophes due to cost-cutting.

Overfished and nearly exterminated the sustainable fishing of the worlds oceans.

Ignored the safety of workers, which have resulted in mine collapses or horrible mangling accidents.

More.

Ultimately, corporations are run by people; Because they're more powerful than normal people, but just as prone to avarice and the other sins, they cause problems that are measurably worse.

[Just_A_Guy]

Sure; and it's even grayer. Ford, for example--as I recall, he did (or at least allowed) some truly horrific things to the natives working on his rubber plantations in Brazil.

Corporations, churches, governments . . . as organizations of people, all have the effect of magnifying man's ability to commit good or evil. The difference, IMHO, is that a corporation can be held in check by a government. A government, by contrast, isn't really held in check by anything within its own boundaries. If Hitler hadn't made the mistake of invading Poland, he could have kept on gassing German Jews with impunity right into the 1980s.

Because they're more powerful than normal people, but just as prone to avarice and the other sins, they cause problems that are measurably worse.

Well, and just like anything else: the good goes largely unnoticed; but the bad is generally very visible. A company giving Joe Schmoe a job for twenty-five years isn't newsworthy. But when Joe Schmoe suddenly gets laid off--that's news.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[HoosierGuy]

Bill Gates was important, but the most popular home PC of all time was the Commodore 64, invented by good ol' Chuck Peddle. Prior to this, home computing didn't really exist as they were really too expensive. Chuck Peddle is a legend.

Bill Gates and the Windows creators deserve 90% of the credit for the economic boom in the 1990's. It was Windows that let the common person access the internet and send email and all that. And it allowed online stores to open, stores from the big J.C. Pennies all the way down to mom and pop stores selling their crafts or whatever.

The thing is, Windows can be designed in Washington State in a building or two with a group of programmers. But when it's time to put the program on disks for distribution, that can be done in some other country or completely automatically by machines ran by one or two people. Microsoft is not G.M. or Ford or Chrysler.

There's a famous engineering college twenty minutes away from me. Every so often the local news will do some story on some student who writes some new program, for instance to help businesses keep track of their records better. But I ask myself - so what? Is it going to create more jobs? For the people who install those programs on the computers, yes. But for goodness sake, your an engineer! Design something that is needed and needs to be made with many people, putting people to work. We come out with the same lame programs while China and India are building more cars.

[Dravin]

You want a software engineer to design cars? One type of engineer can't just pinch hit for any other. Maybe you are suggesting everyone should become civil or mechanical engineers. Only problem is what type of engineer designs the CAD systems that those guys use? Or the on board software the runs the car designed using CAD?

[Guest]

Bill Gates and the Windows creators deserve 90% of the credit for the economic boom in the 1990's. It was Windows that let the common person access the internet and send email and all that. And it allowed online stores to open, stores from the big J.C. Pennies all the way down to mom and pop stores selling their crafts or whatever.

The thing is, Windows can be designed in Washington State in a building or two with a group of programmers. But when it's time to put the program on disks for distribution, that can be done in some other country or completely automatically by machines ran by one or two people. Microsoft is not G.M. or Ford or Chrysler.

There's a famous engineering college twenty minutes away from me. Every so often the local news will do some story on some student who writes some new program, for instance to help businesses keep track of their records better. But I ask myself - so what? Is it going to create more jobs? For the people who install those programs on the computers, yes. But for goodness sake, your an engineer! Design something that is needed and needs to be made with many people, putting people to work. We come out with the same lame programs while China and India are building more cars.

You did not just say that!

Hello... I'm a programmer!

And... half the population of Bombay are programmers... (no, I don't have statistical data to back that up... just saying).

Data is a product. The successful delivery of which is what we, "the programmers", PRODUCE. Try accessing your healthcare records without the software product created by a bunch of programmers... It is more important than your GM car, I tell ya.

Windows is designed by a team of programmers up in Washington State... is that the great thing about Microsoft? Not really. The great thing about Microsoft is it triggered the onslaught of the following jobs to be created: Programmers, web designers, webmasters, data migrators, data entry clerks, game designers (which by the way, employs psychologists too), database administrators, server administrators, hardware technicians, oh, and yeah, Geek Squad... and the list goes on...

No, they don't all work for Microsoft. I sure don't work for Microsoft.

Oh, and yeah Funky, you are correct that it all started with the Commodore... and even Radioshack!

The thing about it is... the computer also changed the international scene. It's not just an American market anymore. It is now a Global market. Every company has to compete globally now. Even the little farm back in Arkansas! Thanks to the computer that brought every major global city on the same map. Think about this. I'm a Filipino programmer, residing in the United States, working off my home office, working for Germany. That's the new "way of doing business" folks. There is no difference in my productivity if I am working in the US or the Philippines, or on some beach in the Bahamas. The difference to the company is - which place costs less! So, America cannot just tax/tarriff willy-nilly anymore. They have to make sure their companies can compete globally. Either that or restrict importation of goods. And we all know we can't do that because of international trade agreements. Go to Wal-mart and pick up 10 random things. You can guarantee that at least 8 of them are made in China.

If the time ever comes that we can "beam me up, Scotty", then economic trade is going to change majestically again...

Edited December 10, 2010 by anatess

[Just_A_Guy]

But for goodness sake, your an engineer! Design something that is needed and needs to be made with many people, putting people to work. We come out with the same lame programs while China and India are building more cars.

Er . . . engineers are paid to make stuff cheaper and less labor intensive. You're advocating the exact opposite.

[Dravin]

Er . . . engineers are paid to make stuff cheaper and less labor intensive.

One of my favorite quotes you find applied to an engineering mindset is:

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.

[talisyn]

I have seen the light, economically anyways, and offer this for public consumption: Bernard Goldberg Attacks Senator Sanders and Calls for 'Big Bronze and Granite Monument' to Honor the Rich | Video Cafe

[Just_A_Guy]

A version of the bill is here [warning for progressive readers: this is hosted on a flaming conservative website].

Bottom line: $ fifty-odd billion to extend the unemployment bennies and an extra $250-odd billion in out-and-out pork. Including ethanol subsidies, which I understand even Al Gore has renounced. Once again I remember Chancellor Bismarck's remark: "Those who enjoy sausage and respect the law, should watch neither being made."

But it looks like even the House Republicans are starting to bail on this (Chaffetz of Utah came out against this yesterday), and since the House Democrats never got behind it in the first place the deal could be DOA.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

A version of the bill is here [warning for progressive readers: this is hosted on a flaming conservative website].

Bottom line: $ fifty-odd billion to extend the unemployment bennies and an extra $250-odd billion in out-and-out pork. Including ethanol subsidies, which I understand even Al Gore has renounced. Once again I remember Chancellor Bismarck's remark: "Those who enjoy sausage and respect the law, should watch neither being made."

But it looks like even the House Republicans are starting to bail on this (Chaffetz of Utah came out against this yesterday), and since the House Democrats never got behind it in the first place the deal could be DOA.

Ok, I've been too busy lately to pay attention to what's going on in D.C... I heard it mentioned that the House passed some kind of measure that stops pork spending... anybody with a Reader's Digest version of what that was?

[GeneC]

-- Senate passes bill to extend tax cuts and unemployment benefits. House to vote Thursday.

[GeneC]

President Obama signs $858 billion measure that extends tax cuts for two years, unemployment benefits for 13 months.