Why 1600 Years For A Restoration?

[Guest Starsky]

Interesting...I read all about St Ignatius from a Pro Catholic point of view....of course it would say that all the historical writings of Constantine were bunk...even sited historical stuff....that they themselves wrote...to back it up.

So...Having learned about constantine from highschool history class...non-religious agenda...I won't really worry about Ignatius.

I know the Catholics claim there was no apostasy...yet Christ himself predicted it and the scriptures...one I have already given to you....present a whole different story...

Forgive me if I believe the ancient apostles in the Bible and Christ, over the Catholic written history.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Ray+Mar 1 2004, 10:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Mar 1 2004, 10:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -porterrockwell@Feb 29 2004, 01:55 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Feb 27 2004, 10:56 AM

I think it’s worth mentioning that the Bible does contain the fullness of the gospel, so it isn’t the “gospel” that was restored.  The gospel is simply the message that Jesus is the Christ, the only one who can redeem Man from sin and bring Man back into the presence of God with a clear conscience.  The Book of Mormon is another witness that the gospel and Bible are true.

What was restored was the kingdom of God to the Earth, comprised of people who help Man to know and do the things God requires from citizens in God’s kingdom.  Many plain and precious truths were also restored, pertaining to both the gospel and kingdom of God, but Man was already in possession of all the information about the gospel that was necessary.

Once someone knows that Jesus is the Christ, and that they must go through Him to enter the kingdom of God, they know that they need to do whatever He requires of them before they can enter God’s kingdom and presence with a clear conscience.  That involves doing things.  If someone can’t do something during their mortal life on this Earth, because an authorized servant of God isn't available to help them do something, or because someone isn't aware that they need to do something, they will learn about all those things later, after their mortal life here on this Earth.  People who are already in the kingdom of God, who already know about those things and do them, help other people know and do those things both during this mortal life and afterwards. 

Someday, everyone will know that Jesus is the Christ, and they will either do what they know they should be doing or they won't.  Advancement in the kingdom of God is dependent on how well people do what they know they should be doing.

Actually, the BOM is part of the Gospel. And while the Bible is the "Gospel", we are speaking in terms of the restoration of the TRUTH. During the dark ages at about 350 AD the Nicene Creed was drafted and it destroyed the truth about the Godhead and the eternal plan of salvation.

Let’s get our semantics straight, shall we?

The “gospel” is the “good news” concerning Christ…that there is a need for a Christ, that there is a Christ, and that Jesus is the Christ.

The Bible is not the gospel. The Bible contains the gospel, or in other words, the “good news” concerning Christ.

The Book of Mormon is also not the gospel, nor is it a part of the gospel. The Book of Mormon is record of people who, among other things, bore witness that Jesus is the Christ, while going into some depth about the significance of the gospel.

As I was trying to say before, once you acknowledge that there needs to be a Christ, and that Jesus is the Christ, you should be able to realize that you need to accept Christ if you wish to benefit from Christ. Acceptance of Christ involves accepting whatever He tells you, and doing whatever He tells you to do. If you don’t accept Christ you will be left to yourself, and your destiny will be whatever you deserve by your own merits. That means you won’t receive any special blessings from Christ, and no forgiveness from Christ, because you haven’t asked for it or done what He requires from you. Without mercy, there is only justice.

Dude, I am freakin mormon what are going on about? Plain and simple, we are apart of the Restored Gospel. We recieve revelation from God through our prophets. Which were called of God. Through Joseph Smith all ordinances and priesthood keys were restored along with the BOM that is testament of the Lord Jesus Christ that also confirms the truths of the first(Bible). Geez, that is the problem with religion today, everyone wants to play "musical chairs" with these subjects. All ya gotta know are the basics, the rest will be revealed to you in time.

[Jason]

Ray,

You said: "Heh, did you expect to discover that Joseph Smith never learned anything?"

I never said that.

"...I once believed that Jesus was the son of Jehovah too, before I learned better. It’s easy to understand how anyone can have that misunderstanding, since neither the Bible nor Book of Mormon clarify who Jehovah really is..."

I think the Bible states pretty clearly that Jehovah is God.

"You’re being vague with what you know about the Adam-God doctrine. What do you claim to know about that? Or are you just trying to cause me to doubt my testimony again?"

Im not trying to harm your testimony. Quite a few LDS know that Brigham's pet Adam-God theory was rejected by many both during and after his administration. But in case you're wondering, Craig Tholson, Ogden Kraut, and Joseph Musser have books on Adam-God. There's a letter to Eugene England from Bruce R. McConkie that sums up your beliefs about Adam God. A Google search should find the letter. Basically, McConkie admits that Brigham taught it throughout his life, but refutes the doctrine's soundness.

Jason

[Jason]

Peace,

You said: "Well all the history books lie then...I will look up your Ignatius..."

Have you really read all the history books on the subject, or are you exaggerating just a wee bit???

Your 3rd John reference is excellent. But it does not prove a general apostasy. Just a local one. And even that is not complete, hence the statement: "...and forbiddeth them that would..."

As for Bishop Ignatious, please look here for reliable info:

http://www.newadvent.org/

There you'll find the Catholic encyclopedia. Look up "catholic". It's a fascinating read about it. Lots of debate about when the term became the official "name" of the Church of Christ.

You also said: "know the Catholics claim there was no apostasy...yet Christ himself predicted it and the scriptures...one I have already given to you....present a whole different story... Forgive me if I believe the ancient apostles in the Bible and Christ, over the Catholic written history."

So you believe that local apostasy constitutes a general apostasy? So if that's true, then when some LDS Bishop molests a ward girl, then the whole LDS Church becomes apostate!?

Your logic doesn't match up.

Jason

PS. Could you find a scripture where Christ said there would be a general apostasy? Thanks.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 1 2004, 04:07 PM

Peace,

You said: "Well all the history books lie then...I will look up your Ignatius..."

Have you really read all the history books on the subject, or are you exaggerating just a wee bit???

Your 3rd John reference is excellent. But it does not prove a general apostasy. Just a local one. And even that is not complete, hence the statement: "...and forbiddeth them that would..."

As for Bishop Ignatious, please look here for reliable info:

http://www.newadvent.org/

There you'll find the Catholic encyclopedia. Look up "catholic". It's a fascinating read about it. Lots of debate about when the term became the official "name" of the Church of Christ.

You also said: "know the Catholics claim there was no apostasy...yet Christ himself predicted it and the scriptures...one I have already given to you....present a whole different story... Forgive me if I believe the ancient apostles in the Bible and Christ, over the Catholic written history."

So you believe that local apostasy constitutes a general apostasy? So if that's true, then when some LDS Bishop molests a ward girl, then the whole LDS Church becomes apostate!?

Your logic doesn't match up.

Jason

PS. Could you find a scripture where Christ said there would be a general apostasy? Thanks.

I sited only one instance....yes local for that one instance....but there were many.....have you ever read the new testiment? I wreeks of apostasy near the end...all of the letters speak of it...near the end.

I won't go and research this all up for you...my husband and I did about two years ago and found at least 15 references which spoke of stark apostasy...

Then there were the ones where the people were just corrupted....they number into the hundreds...

So....sorry if I don't buy into the 'local' only thing.

[Jason]

Peace,

I know of hundreds of local apostasies of the LDS Church. Does that make it apostate?

[Ray]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 1 2004, 03:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 1 2004, 03:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Mar 1 2004, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by -porterrockwell@Feb 29 2004, 01:55 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Feb 27 2004, 10:56 AM

I think it’s worth mentioning that the Bible does contain the fullness of the gospel, so it isn’t the “gospel” that was restored.  The gospel is simply the message that Jesus is the Christ, the only one who can redeem Man from sin and bring Man back into the presence of God with a clear conscience.  The Book of Mormon is another witness that the gospel and Bible are true.

What was restored was the kingdom of God to the Earth, comprised of people who help Man to know and do the things God requires from citizens in God’s kingdom.  Many plain and precious truths were also restored, pertaining to both the gospel and kingdom of God, but Man was already in possession of all the information about the gospel that was necessary.

Once someone knows that Jesus is the Christ, and that they must go through Him to enter the kingdom of God, they know that they need to do whatever He requires of them before they can enter God’s kingdom and presence with a clear conscience.  That involves doing things.  If someone can’t do something during their mortal life on this Earth, because an authorized servant of God isn't available to help them do something, or because someone isn't aware that they need to do something, they will learn about all those things later, after their mortal life here on this Earth.  People who are already in the kingdom of God, who already know about those things and do them, help other people know and do those things both during this mortal life and afterwards. 

Someday, everyone will know that Jesus is the Christ, and they will either do what they know they should be doing or they won't.  Advancement in the kingdom of God is dependent on how well people do what they know they should be doing.

Actually, the BOM is part of the Gospel. And while the Bible is the "Gospel", we are speaking in terms of the restoration of the TRUTH. During the dark ages at about 350 AD the Nicene Creed was drafted and it destroyed the truth about the Godhead and the eternal plan of salvation.

Let’s get our semantics straight, shall we?

The “gospel” is the “good news” concerning Christ…that there is a need for a Christ, that there is a Christ, and that Jesus is the Christ.

The Bible is not the gospel. The Bible contains the gospel, or in other words, the “good news” concerning Christ.

The Book of Mormon is also not the gospel, nor is it a part of the gospel. The Book of Mormon is record of people who, among other things, bore witness that Jesus is the Christ, while going into some depth about the significance of the gospel.

As I was trying to say before, once you acknowledge that there needs to be a Christ, and that Jesus is the Christ, you should be able to realize that you need to accept Christ if you wish to benefit from Christ. Acceptance of Christ involves accepting whatever He tells you, and doing whatever He tells you to do. If you don’t accept Christ you will be left to yourself, and your destiny will be whatever you deserve by your own merits. That means you won’t receive any special blessings from Christ, and no forgiveness from Christ, because you haven’t asked for it or done what He requires from you. Without mercy, there is only justice.

Dude, I am freakin mormon what are going on about? Plain and simple, we are apart of the Restored Gospel. We recieve revelation from God through our prophets. Which were called of God. Through Joseph Smith all ordinances and priesthood keys were restored along with the BOM that is testament of the Lord Jesus Christ that also confirms the truths of the first(Bible). Geez, that is the problem with religion today, everyone wants to play "musical chairs" with these subjects. All ya gotta know are the basics, the rest will be revealed to you in time.

Dude? A freakin mormon?

I was just pointing out that you’re not defining “gospel” properly. The gospel is not the Bible, or the Book of Mormon, or the members of the Church of Christ. “We” are not a part of the restored gospel. It isn't even the “gospel” that was restored, even though many of the plain and precious truths that were restored help us to better understand the gospel. The gospel is simple, but understanding it can be very complex.

You really should try to use the correct words when you try to teach people correct principles, so they may be better equipped with the truth as they govern themselves.

Btw, when we (LDS) speak about the restoration of truth, or the restoration of the kingdom of God on this Earth, where do you suppose that it is being restored from? From the knowledge that was given to us in the past on Earth, or in heaven?

[Guest Starsky]

2 Thes. 2:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of dsin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Here is one prophecy of the apostasy that had to take place..

Acts 3

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

[inactivetx]

Wow Did I start all this?

Very interesting reading.

Anyway, regarding the Jesus/Jehovah thing I don't understand that one either. In Psalms 110:1 it reads:

"The LORD (Jehovah, tetragramaton) said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool"

Compare with Hebrews 1:13:

"But to which of the angels said he at any time Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"

Obviously Jehovah is the father speaking to Christ our Lord.

Keep going, this is fun!

[Jason]

Peace,

Im not disputing that apostasy occured. Im quite sure that it still occurs.

What I am disputing is the notion that the Catholic Church lost the authority of the priesthood as the LDS Church contends. The LDS Church claims that there was a "GENERAL" apostasy. In other words, a complete, total, universal apostasy where nobody was worthy or qualified to hold the Priesthood of God. No Mormon has yet to show that a general apostasy took place!

Jason

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 1 2004, 04:47 PM

Peace,

I know of hundreds of local apostasies of the LDS Church.  Does that make it apostate?

You are trying to defend against the fact that the Church Christ started....went into apostasy by pointing the finger at the LDS church....which btw...isn't in apostacy in local churches....where do you get this stuff..

There maybe apostates here and there, but it isn't coming from the local leadership...it is just individuals...

The church isn't in an apostate condition in local areas...that would mean an entire stake would have to be preaching false doctrine and kicking out the GAs when they visit.

That just wouldn't happen...there are too many safe guards...first you have the stake presidents who watch over bishops...who are watched over the the area presidencies, who are watched over by the GAs who are watched over by the twelve, who are watched over by the Prophet/first presidency.

And the people are always watching all of them and tattling on them if they make a misstep...believe me...it is impossible to have a ward or stake or even branch go into apostasy in this day of internet speed communications.

[Jason]

Peace,

Would you like me to shatter your paradigm?.........

[Ray]

Heh, from what I know about Peace, I will say that that is impossible, Jason. I know you can come up with some reasoning to explain how this or that isn't true, but you will never be able to shatter the faith of someone like Peace, who has an assurance of the truth from God.

How arrogant are you, really? Do you really believe that someone would choose to believe what you say instead of what God has said? I pity anyone who will put their trust in YOU.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 1 2004, 05:06 PM

Peace,

Would you like me to shatter your paradigm?.........

sure...give it a try. :)

[Jason]

Ray,

I never asked anyone to believe me. Im not perfect. My entire point was that it was not possible to prove a "great apostasy".

NOBODY HAS REFUTED THIS!

At least Snow has the integrity to admit that it can only be "infered". That's the only point Im trying to make. You can believe that Joseph Smith taught it, therefore that's all you need. Im not going to try and refute that. What I can refute is the notion that the New Testament teaches a "general apostasy" of the Church.

Jason

PS. And the last time I checked, the Bible was the word of God......

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 1 2004, 05:32 PM

Ray,

I never asked anyone to believe me. Im not perfect. My entire point was that it was not possible to prove a "great apostasy".

NOBODY HAS REFUTED THIS!

At least Snow has the integrity to admit that it can only be "infered". That's the only point Im trying to make. You can believe that Joseph Smith taught it, therefore that's all you need. Im not going to try and refute that. What I can refute is the notion that the New Testament teaches a "general apostasy" of the Church.

Jason

PS. And the last time I checked, the Bible was the word of God......

So what you are saying is the Christ didn't know what he was talking about and that what little written history we can take from the NT ...can't be trusted because it never states that the whole church went into apostasy...only a little bit did.

That is pathetic reasoning...jason.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Ray@Mar 1 2004, 05:14 PM

Heh, from what I know about Peace, I will say that that is impossible, Jason. I know you can come up with some reasoning to explain how this or that isn't true, but you will never be able to shatter the faith of someone like Peace, who has an assurance of the truth from God.

Thank you Ray.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 1 2004, 05:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 1 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ExMormon-Jason@Mar 1 2004, 05:06 PM

Peace,

Would you like me to shatter your paradigm?.........

sure...give it a try. :)

Hey what happened to my paradigm shattering?

[Jason]

Peace,

You sure can be frustrating...

You said: "So what you are saying is the Christ didn't know what he was talking about and that what little written history we can take from the NT ...can't be trusted because it never states that the whole church went into apostasy...only a little bit did."

That's not what I said. Im saying trust the New Testament. That neither Christ nor any of the apostles taught about a general apostasy.

HOW in the world you thought otherwise is beyond my understanding....

Jason

PS. As for the paradigm shift, be patient....

[Guest]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 1 2004, 06:48 PM

PS. As for the paradigm shift, be patient....

When you are finished with that, could you explain that there are no people living on the moon?

[Jason]

Peace,

You said: "There maybe apostates here and there, but it isn't coming from the local leadership...it is just individuals..."

Please visit this site for an intro to ward apostasy: http://historytogo.utah.gov/hmshort.html

You said: "The church isn't in an apostate condition in local areas...that would mean an entire stake would have to be preaching false doctrine and kicking out the GAs when they visit."

Again, please visit the above site and read Sontag's book.

You said: "That just wouldn't happen...there are too many safe guards...first you have the stake presidents who watch over bishops...who are watched over the the area presidencies, who are watched over by the GAs who are watched over by the twelve, who are watched over by the Prophet/first presidency."

Sure, Sure. Just like the Catholic Church: Deacons who watch over the laity, Priests who watch over the Deacons, Bishops who watch over the Priests, Arch-Bishops who watch over the Bishops, Cardinals who watch over the Arch-Bishops, the Pope who watches over the Cardinals, and Jesus who watches over the Pope! :)

I'd go here for all the sex abuse cases against the LDS Church: http://www.factnet.org/cults/Mormon/?FACTNet

Of course, if that isn't apostasy, perhaps it makes the priesthood holder unrighteous, which makes all rituals performed by that individual null and void...

Jason

PS. There are no Quakers on the moon.....

[Ray]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 1 2004, 05:32 PM

Ray,

I never asked anyone to believe me. Im not perfect. My entire point was that it was not possible to prove a "great apostasy".

NOBODY HAS REFUTED THIS!

At least Snow has the integrity to admit that it can only be "infered". That's the only point Im trying to make. You can believe that Joseph Smith taught it, therefore that's all you need. Im not going to try and refute that. What I can refute is the notion that the New Testament teaches a "general apostasy" of the Church.

Jason

PS. And the last time I checked, the Bible was the word of God......

I think it's just a matter of where you get your "proof" from. If you don't believe the teachings in the Bible were inspired of God, then the Bible won't prove anything to you. If you don't believe the teachings in the Book of Mormon were inspired of God, then the Book of Mormon won't prove anything to you. And if you don't believe the teachings in the Doctrine & Covenants were inspired of God, then the Doctrine & Covenants won't prove anything to you either. If you want proof, and you think you can handle the truth, ask God and He'll prove it to you. If you believe God speaks the truth, that is.

And btw, the last time I checked, the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants were also the word of God......

[Snow]

Jason,

The story you linked about the illegal activities of fundamentalist polygamist is hardly any indication that individual wards in the LDS church are subject to or prone to or in danger of group apostacy.

Likewise, I scanned the first eight links from you think is a good indicator of sex-abuse cases in the Church. First, I mostly just skip the tripe that cult-hounds publish and promote, but still in this case I find not much much at all about sex abuse in the Church. Mostly I find that the Church settled on a case as a matter of expediency, not as a matter of guilt and then a bunch of lard from clowns like Kosnoff or whatever the slime bucket's name is and the unfounded/unsubstantiated allegations of others.

What is your point? That abuse in the Church is any more or less prevalent that in the general population?

[Jenda]

Revelations 12:1-5

1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.

4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.

5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.

which is reiterated in verse 14

12:14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

It actually is a fairly common understanding by many historians that a major apostacy occurred around 575-600 AD (unless you are Catholic (or anti-Mormon) that is). If you can't read anything that confirms that, just look at the history of the church up through, and including that time, and state with any sense of honesty whatsoever that the church was progressing nicely according to God's plan.

The church going into the wilderness long about 575 AD, if you add the 1260 years that the revelation states it will be in apostacy, brings you to roughly 1830-1835. Wonder what happened around that time??????? Can anyone help me out here?

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 1 2004, 08:40 PM

...and state with any sense of honesty whatsoever that the church was progressing nicely according to God's plan.

Your relatively tiny little church has been around for about 180 years. I think I'll reserve my judgement on how well it's progressing according to God's plan until after, oh, say, another 800 years?