Moroni 8:18?

[Seminarysnoozer]

What I mean by eternal progression is exactly the same as you believe. Eternal progression applied to God as well, did it not? God does not progress when He is God but didn't he progress from being a man to becoming a God? Are there steps in between being a man and becoming a god?

I think the other thing that gets misrepresented is this notion that progression in general starts with "man" and ends with "God". In reality our progression starts as God-child to God. I think that is a better way of saying it. Our time spent as a "God-child" far outweighs our time spent as a "man" and happens before we are "man". I don't know how much time that is but try to put that in perspective, maybe millions of years as a God-child progressing, then reaching a point where we couldn't go any further in our progression and have to step through this relatively blink-of-an-eye existence that we call being "man". This life is really intended to be a probationary period, a test period, not a progression period.

This life is like going in to take the MCAT after one has gone through grade school and college. There are times where I have taken a final exam and actually learned something during the exam but the hope is that you go into the final exam not having to learn anything more, that you know everything you need to pass the test. I would liken this life of being "man" to a final exam because I know there are actually many souls that are so prepared before that their test is really nothing, they just need to get a body and move on. Like those, for example, that are born with Down's Syndrome. If this life was the only "progression" time we had available to qualify for guaranteed Godhood status then when did those souls progress? Obviously, we keep progressing even after this life but those souls that pass through this one without having to take the "test" have had to have had a sufficient amount of progression before this life. Luckily, for a lot of us that don't get a free pass through this life, Heavenly Father allows us for a little more refinement as we take our test, like a partially open-book test, as we have the gospel to guide us, like an MCAT prep class, so-to-speak.

Being "man" is just a little blip of time in the progression from God-child to God, in my opinion. It is an important moment in that timeline as it is a fork in the road that may take one off the God-child to God path but it doesn't account for much of the road itself. Going off the path would make it a changing path, staying on the path would make it "unchanging". Our God, our Heavenly Father, obviously, did not change paths. He stayed on the path from beginning to end and beyond, which includes we are told, a probationary state. Going through the probationary state makes it an "unchanging" pathway.

[Nathan6329]

Okay but there is definitely something that remains out of place though. God the Father is the Supreme Creator as our beliefs say, so how could he had lived as a man to progress as God the Father? Where does the Book of Mormon say God was once a man? If it doesn't say it in there then why should we think these were more than just the personal views of God from Joseph Smith?

[bytebear]

The Book of Mormon doesn't say that God was once a man. But the Bible does in a somewhat round about way, in that Jesus is God and Jesus was once a man. And Jesus also says that he does what the father has done, so we can imply that the Father also had some kind of Earthlike experience.

Now, I wanted to point out a couple things. We don't know anything about the progression of the Father. What we do know is that "in the beginning" He had already progressed to a state where he cannot fall. We are not in that state. We can fall and stop progressing. But the Father cannot. Also, Jesus "in the beginning" was perfect, and although he still needed to experience mortality to become complete (called "perfect" in the Bible), He was God from the beginning and therefore could not fall from grace.

Alma 42 touches on this concept:

13Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

14And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

15And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

Edited January 21, 2011 by bytebear

[Seminarysnoozer]

Also, Jesus "in the beginning" was perfect, and although he still needed to experience mortality to become complete (called "perfect" in the Bible), He was God from the beginning and therefore could not fall from grace.

As a reminder, there are many that meet that description. All the souls that are born with bodies that have conditions such as Down's Syndrome or those that die before the age of accountability that have reached a state of progression that does not require further refinement like the rest of us need in this life to go onto the next step.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Okay but there is definitely something that remains out of place though. God the Father is the Supreme Creator as our beliefs say, so how could he had lived as a man to progress as God the Father? Where does the Book of Mormon say God was once a man? If it doesn't say it in there then why should we think these were more than just the personal views of God from Joseph Smith?

What is the problem with saying that God was once man? I don't see any inconsistencies with our known doctrine to see a problem with that statement.

If our goal is to one day inherent all that the Father has then, if I do make it to that point of a full inheritance, what aspect of what the Father has will be left out of what I get? Are there parts of His kingdom that He will say I don't get experience the joy out of that which He has. And Our Heavenly Father likewise, is there anything of His Father's that He could not claim as His own with His inheritance?

The importance of families relates to this heart of our religion that all the Father has can be ours. A fullness of joy comes from this aspect of the fullness of our gospel. It isn't just the introductory benefit of being with our earthly family forever but the shared glory that comes from being sealed to my heavenly Celestial family and the eternal nature of that family both past and future directions.

[bytebear]

As a reminder, there are many that meet that description. All the souls that are born with bodies that have conditions such as Down's Syndrome or those that die before the age of accountability that have reached a state of progression that does not require further refinement like the rest of us need in this life to go onto the next step.

Perhaps, but they were not set apart as God in the pre-existence. Maybe they progressed enough to achieve celestial glory and did not need to be tested in mortality because the already passed the test in pre-mortality. But I do not believe they were created in perfection. That honor is Christ's alone.

[Nathan6329]

What is the problem with saying that God was once man? I don't see any inconsistencies with our known doctrine to see a problem with that statement.

If our goal is to one day inherent all that the Father has then, if I do make it to that point of a full inheritance, what aspect of what the Father has will be left out of what I get? Are there parts of His kingdom that He will say I don't get experience the joy out of that which He has. And Our Heavenly Father likewise, is there anything of His Father's that He could not claim as His own with His inheritance?

The importance of families relates to this heart of our religion that all the Father has can be ours. A fullness of joy comes from this aspect of the fullness of our gospel. It isn't just the introductory benefit of being with our earthly family forever but the shared glory that comes from being sealed to my heavenly Celestial family and the eternal nature of that family both past and future directions.

No offense but I don't understand at all what this means.

[Seminarysnoozer]

No offense but I don't understand at all what this means.

Sorry, I was just trying to propose a way in which God our Father could be accredited with everything His predecessors have accomplished. But, looking at my post I realize it is hard to just say that in a few simple sentences without discussing a lot of other doctrine like inheritance and what 'glory' is.

I kind of liken it to when a scientist claims they have discovered a new gene. Yes, they may have, but they are not the ones who discovered glass, or electricity or the discovery of the human genome etc. that was a prerequisite for their specific gene discovery. That person wasn't even born yet when glass started to be used or electricity. And yet they take credit for the discovery.

Sorry, this is too deep and I don't have enough time today to go any further. But thanks these are interesting topics.

Maybe you can state why there is a problem specifically with God once being a man, if that is the case.

(I don't know any more than anyone else if it was a personal view of Joseph Smith or not, to answer your original question.)

[Seminarysnoozer]

If you tend to think God was once a man like me, who sinned and repented and found grace to where he is today, I can see where you might find that problematic.

Why is that problematic?

[Nathan6329]

Why is that problematic?

It is very problematic to think that God was once a sinner. Was Jesus once a sinner?

Another problem is that God the Father didn't have a father above him. He is the supreme creator of all so to say that there was another God before him would definitely contradict the Bible.

There is a fine, fine line between simply saying he had lived once on a mortal world and saying he had been placed on another Earth by another God and he was a sinner.

[bert10]

You ask a good question...perhaps the answer lies in ONENESS And Individualism...for both exist in the GODHEAD. On DSN 9 Constable ODO a shape-shifter whose natural state is a liquid...comes to the realization that He can exist as a drop from the Sea when he is away from the Sea or as a whole when he is in the Sea (Liquids of shapeshifter)

Now in order for anything to exist there must be its opposite and then we can have a reference point with to measure, to weight and to evaluate.

Also the laws by which Creation and heaven and eternity are predicated upon...are unchangeable. In this sense GOD is unchangeable. As for changing His mind...the Scriptures make it clear that GOD has changed his mind in the past. Not because He errs but as a reaction to us.

bert10

I saw a post about this on a different forum and I was wondering about people's thoughts on this verse. If eternal progression is true, how can God be unchanging? Is this speaking of when God has become God and not a time before this before He progressed to Godhood? I'm really trying to understand this and maybe somebody can shed some light on this. God bless.

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. - Moroni 8:18

Edited January 23, 2011 by bert10

[mordorbund]

If you tend to think God was once a man like me, who sinned and repented and found grace to where he is today, I can see where you might find that problematic.

Why is that problematic?

Why is that problematic?

Obviously you don't know me.

The scriptures make it clear that we are not to trust in the arm of flesh or the arm of man because man is not like God. We cannot have faith in man. So with that viewpoint in mind, I'm sympathetic when that is the specific concern.

That being said, I did include a response to this concern (that satisfies me at the moment). So if the Prophet ever stands and says, "Not only was God once a man on an earth like this one, he was a man like Brother Mordorbund with similar vices. But he repented of them and went on to be the Father of all our spirits. So Brother Mordorbund, there's hope for you yet," I'm not going to sweat it because I believe I can still have faith in him as an unchanging God.

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

...Did God used to be a man? If yes, then I have questions. If no, nevermind.

Joseph Smith certainly thought he was. Google the King Follet Discourse.

An evangelical can say that God is timeless and unchanging from all eternity, without any caveats. In other words, the verse you quoted seems pretty straight forward, and so do Biblical passages that agree with it, but it is my opinion that LDS doctrine simply ignores or redefines the plain teaching to say that he does progress, and therefore change over time (or did in the past).

If God simply "is" and always has been, and always will be; or if He cannot become more perfect because He already is infinitely perfect, then he can never become less than that. This would make Him all sufficient and all powerful in every way, which makes his love and care for us unstoppable.

[JohnnyRudick]

Okay but how would they have the teachings of the Bible and the Book of Mormon on other planets? It would make absolutely no sense at all. They would have to have their own doctrines but the same Father.

I do not see where they would have to have different doctrines.

What would be wrong with prophets among the inhabitants rising up and informing the people of the mission of the Savior?

Just extend the mission of the risen Christ to other lands as among the Nephites and the Lamanites etc.

Angels could confirm with signs in the heavens.

After the resurrection the Savior could visit the other worlds after visiting the people all over the Earth.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is very problematic to think that God was once a sinner. Was Jesus once a sinner?

Another problem is that God the Father didn't have a father above him. He is the supreme creator of all so to say that there was another God before him would definitely contradict the Bible.

There is a fine, fine line between simply saying he had lived once on a mortal world and saying he had been placed on another Earth by another God and he was a sinner.

I don't think it has to be problematic and I will explain my viewpoint. Obviously, we are not talking about things that have been revealed yet so this is just my viewpoint. (I also want to say I appreciate Mordorbund's comment above. I realize now that you are saying it is not impossible, thanks.)

I say it is possible that God was once a man and could have even sinned because I believe in the redemptive power of Christ our Savior. I believe that Christ can wash our sins clean, white as snow. I don't think that we intended to come to this world and leave with blemishes and scars that would remain forever. I believe that we intended to come here to become more like God. Of course, Satan still wants us to think otherwise. He wants us to think that we are permanently damaged by our experiences here. But it is the opposite. These experiences are given for our refinement and growth. A strong testimony and faith in Jesus Christ which is the first principle of the gospel would provide anyone interested in the comfort that we can be washed clean and made whole and new.

The other thing to realize is that physical creations including the whole universe are not permanent. Even scientists will tell you that the Earth will not be around forever. A "creation" by definition has a beginning and therefore an end.

This is how I explained it to my kids one family home evening, so maybe its a silly metaphor but its all I can think of right now; If I were to pull out a thousand piece puzzle and put it together out on the dinning room table over several hours, taking up most of the table space, I would leave it out for a few days for everyone to see. But, eventually, I pull it apart and put it back in the box because we need to use the table. Then the next week my husband pulls out the puzzle one night and wants to see if he can put it together. Spending all night long he finally gets it done, again on the dinning room table. My kids get up the next morning and ask, "Who made that?", surprised it is put together again. And I answer them truthfully, "Your father made that." Even though I had done it before, I couldn't tell them that I am the one that put it together this time.

Likewise, all the 'pieces of the puzzle' for the universe are not destroyed. God did not make the 'pieces of the puzzle'. He simply organized them and put them together, making Him the 'Supreme Creator of the Universe' if you want to call Him that. The process, though, is one Eternal round. It can end and start again. It can be destroyed and created. There are some things that become spiritual in nature and therefore permanent, but the process is one eternal round.

The other thing I wanted to say is that there are several scriptures that say that the Lord is unchanging and that the Godhead is unchanging. Well, we know that the Lord was here as man and that He increased in wisdom and stature with God. So, increasing in wisdom and stature do not take away the status of being "unchanging." Alma 11:44 " ...before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil." And D&C 20:28; "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen." So, consider the Holy Ghost as infinite and eternal and yet we believe that he will someday not remain as spirit and gain a body. Some might even say that the Holy Ghost is not even the same person. So, consider that when talking about the "unchangeable" status of God, being the same forever.

The phrase "unchangeable" and even being the same in the past and in the future really only is speaking about the course not the position on the course. The course is unchanging. God will not work in one direction and then change course. So, His judgments and His rule and law stay the same forever.

[JohnnyRudick]

I don't think it has to be problematic and I will explain my viewpoint. Obviously, we are not talking about things that have been revealed yet so this is just my viewpoint. (I also want to say I appreciate Mordorbund's comment above. I realize now that you are saying it is not impossible, thanks.)

I say it is possible that God was once a man and could have even sinned because I believe in the redemptive power of Christ our Savior. I believe that Christ can wash our sins clean, white as snow. I don't think that we intended to come to this world and leave with blemishes and scars that would remain forever. I believe that we intended to come here to become more like God. Of course, Satan still wants us to think otherwise. He wants us to think that we are permanently damaged by our experiences here. But it is the opposite. These experiences are given for our refinement and growth. A strong testimony and faith in Jesus Christ which is the first principle of the gospel would provide anyone interested in the comfort that we can be washed clean and made whole and new.

The other thing to realize is that physical creations including the whole universe are not permanent. Even scientists will tell you that the Earth will not be around forever. A "creation" by definition has a beginning and therefore an end.

This is how I explained it to my kids one family home evening, so maybe its a silly metaphor but its all I can think of right now; If I were to pull out a thousand piece puzzle and put it together out on the dinning room table over several hours, taking up most of the table space, I would leave it out for a few days for everyone to see. But, eventually, I pull it apart and put it back in the box because we need to use the table. Then the next week my husband pulls out the puzzle one night and wants to see if he can put it together. Spending all night long he finally gets it done, again on the dinning room table. My kids get up the next morning and ask, "Who made that?", surprised it is put together again. And I answer them truthfully, "Your father made that." Even though I had done it before, I couldn't tell them that I am the one that put it together this time.

Likewise, all the 'pieces of the puzzle' for the universe are not destroyed. God did not make the 'pieces of the puzzle'. He simply organized them and put them together, making Him the 'Supreme Creator of the Universe' if you want to call Him that. The process, though, is one Eternal round. It can end and start again. It can be destroyed and created. There are some things that become spiritual in nature and therefore permanent, but the process is one eternal round.

The other thing I wanted to say is that there are several scriptures that say that the Lord is unchanging and that the Godhead is unchanging. Well, we know that the Lord was here as man and that He increased in wisdom and stature with God. So, increasing in wisdom and stature do not take away the status of being "unchanging." Alma 11:44 " ...before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil." And D&C 20:28; "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen." So, consider the Holy Ghost as infinite and eternal and yet we believe that he will someday not remain as spirit and gain a body. Some might even say that the Holy Ghost is not even the same person. So, consider that when talking about the "unchangeable" status of God, being the same forever.

The phrase "unchangeable" and even being the same in the past and in the future really only is speaking about the course not the position on the course. The course is unchanging. God will not work in one direction and then change course. So, His judgments and His rule and law stay the same forever.

I really like ths and would like to keep it on my hard drive.

I would also like to place it on my Facebook wall if you don't mind.

Can I?

Huh, can I:p

[Seminarysnoozer]

I really like ths and would like to keep it on my hard drive.

I would also like to place it on my Facebook wall if you don't mind.

Can I?

Huh, can I:p

Sure, why not ... haha. So long as you don't direct any hate mail my way ... kidding.

[JohnnyRudick]

Sure, why not ... haha. So long as you don't direct any hate mail my way ... kidding.

Very seldom do I ever ask for something like this.

Usually I will repost Jamie's stuff as she is soooooooooooo, smart;)

and I like the stuff she posts much better then I could have written it:D

It seems "great minds think alike":cool:

[mordorbund]

curtishouse, where do you stand on this? What are your thoughts?

[Nathan6329]

Well the main flaw of life on other planets and God being a mortal on another one is the idea just doesn't seem to fit. Other planets aren't under the temptation of Satan the same way we are.

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

I saw a post about this on a different forum and I was wondering about people's thoughts on this verse. If eternal progression is true, how can God be unchanging? Is this speaking of when God has become God and not a time before this before He progressed to Godhood? I'm really trying to understand this and maybe somebody can shed some light on this. God bless.

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. - Moroni 8:18

God is unchangeable since he is no longer progressing since he is a god as well as the One God. The idea behind the mortal existence of God the Father on this Earth or on another under another heavenly father doesn't have a lot of impact thought on his eternal nature and him being unchangeable.

Remember that our spirits are all made of intelligence with is eternal like the gods. So the Father was eternal even when he was a mortal man because his spirit is still made of eternal intelligence like ours.

When he achieved godhood though he became not only eternal but unchangeable, remember that nothing that is imperfect can attain godhood so any imperfections or transgressions Heavenly Father made as a imperfect man were washed away as as if they had never occurred through his atonement just like ours will in our atonement and allow us to achieve godhood and he eternal and unchanging (even though we were mortal and imperfect at one time).

I know that this must sound really confusing to you but the key thing to remember is that the process of a resurrected body becoming exalted into godhood involves a transformation from imperfect and changeable into perfect and unchangeable. How this happens and why I cannot explain this is a mystery that will be revealed when we are ready for such knowledge!

[Guest LDS_Guy_1986]

Well the main flaw of life on other planets and God being a mortal on another one is the idea just doesn't seem to fit. Other planets aren't under the temptation of Satan the same way we are.

The assumption there is that the plan of salvation is a copy and paste plan from one planet to the next. It is entirely possible that there are several plans to godhood (hence the need for the council in premortal existence to choose our plan) some of these plans may not have a deceiver to rebel against it.

Remember that Lucifer is a creation of our heavenly father that rebelled against the plan of salvation approved by council. So in some cases there may not be a fallen angel like Lucifer. How such plans would work I couldn't say but it is a logical possibility.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The assumption there is that the plan of salvation is a copy and paste plan from one planet to the next. It is entirely possible that there are several plans to godhood (hence the need for the council in premortal existence to choose our plan) some of these plans may not have a deceiver to rebel against it.

Remember that Lucifer is a creation of our heavenly father that rebelled against the plan of salvation approved by council. So in some cases there may not be a fallen angel like Lucifer. How such plans would work I couldn't say but it is a logical possibility.

I don't think that is a logical possibility. Without a deceiver Adam and Eve would be stuck in the Garden of Eden, then there is no chance for a probationary period to have a chance to live by faith and show our worthiness to inherit a lifestyle of eternal progression.

Without a deceiver that is like taking a multiple choice test with only one answer listed. Then there is no free agency and no accountability and no need for a Savior. That doesn't seem logical to me.

[JohnnyRudick]

God is unchangeable since he is no longer progressing since he is a god as well as the One God. . . .

I hate to nit-pick since you are doing so well, but the idea of a

being that does not progress sounds a lot like "Damnation" and

an eventual deterioration of what ever progress he had achieved

up to that point withering eventually away to next to nothing.

Just a thought:cool:

[Nathan6329]

Unchangeable can mean many things.