Transgender Question

[Soulsearcher]

I agree.

My mother- for example- was perfectly healthy in her desire to be a woman.

That having been said- whether the desire to switch genders is more nature than nurture or vice-versa, it is fundamentally dysfunctional, and the act of self-mutilation to achieve that end- without genuine medical need- is equally dysfunctional and inescapably sinful.

Note, of course, that it is the behavior, not the desire, which is sinful.

I guess we need to define genuine medical need then. Being some of the studies Show that in MTF transgenders cases the males start with a more female styled brain,then for mental health being able to live a a female makes sense. To live true to their biology they can either have their brain rewired(physically, not counseling being it is a physical issue) or they can have their bodies modified. Considering right now only one method works, it would seem that the gender reassignment has become a sound medical choice to adapt to a medical need.

One has to be careful in assigning moral implications to situation that shouldn't have moral implications. First and foremost it's very easy to look from the outside with limited understanding of facts and feelings and make a very blanket statement, however it's between god and the people with all the facts(who really is a very very small number) to even come close to being able to passing a moral judgment.

[Soulsearcher]

Of everything I said, that's the only thing you seized upon. My beginning paragraph describes you succinctly.

Your opening paragraph said nothing about your degree in psychology or psychiatry in which you would need to make a medical claim of mental disorder.

[selek]

I guess we need to define genuine medical need then. Being some of the studies Show that in MTF transgenders cases the males start with a more female styled brain,then for mental health being able to live a a female makes sense. To live true to their biology they can either have their brain rewired(physically, not counseling being it is a physical issue) or they can have their bodies modified. Considering right now only one method works, it would seem that the gender reassignment has become a sound medical choice to adapt to a medical need.

Given the inescapable politicization of certain aspects of mental health- and the general murkiness surrounding the "mental health" industry in general, the fact that "some" studies suggest this is hardly the fait accompli you seem to pretend it is.

In reality, your statements are no less "blanket" than those for which you criticize Saintmichaeldefendthem1.

One has to be careful in assigning moral implications to situation that shouldn't have moral implications.

True. By the same token however, one should be careful not to "pathologize" behavior that does have moral implications.

The attempt to justify deliberate sin by dismissing it with "God made me this way" or "it's my nature" or by otherwise ducking responsibility for one's choices and behaviors is very, very old.

First and foremost it's very easy to look from the outside with limited understanding of facts and feelings and make a very blanket statement,

Indeed. Perhaps you should be more cautious about such things in the future.

however it's between god and the people with all the facts(who really is a very very small number) to even come close to being able to passing a moral judgment.

And yet Korrotassa asked us to do just that.

You will note, of course, that I specified the following:

Ultimately, it would be up to the Bishop and General Authorities with stewardship over you,

As specified, the Bishop and Priesthood Authorities with the stewardship over Korrotassa are the ones who must ultimately decide.

Korrotassa (in addition to his as-yet unproven allegations of "unkindness") asked us to comment upon the general circumstances and rules regarding "transgenders".

That is precisely what he received.

Neither you nor he can condemn us for giving him precisely what he asked for.

[Soulsearcher]

Given the inescapable politicization of certain aspects of mental health- and the general murkiness surrounding the "mental health" industry in general, the fact that "some" studies suggest this is hardly the fait accompli you seem to pretend it is.

In reality, your statements are no less "blanket" than those for which you criticize Saintmichaeldefendthem1.

True. By the same token however, one should be careful not to "pathologize" behavior that does have moral implications.

The attempt to justify deliberate sin by dismissing it with "God made me this way" or "it's my nature" or by otherwise ducking responsibility for one's choices and behaviors is very, very old.

Indeed. Perhaps you should be more cautious about such things in the future.

And yet Korrotassa asked us to do just that.

You will note, of course, that I specified the following:

As specified, the Bishop and Priesthood Authorities with the stewardship over Korrotassa are the ones who must ultimately decide.

Korrotassa (in addition to his as-yet unproven allegations of "unkindness") asked us to comment upon the general circumstances and rules regarding "transgenders".

That is precisely what he received.

Neither you nor he can condemn us for giving him precisely what he asked for.

I'm not saying the studies are the beginning and end all, I'm saying they cast doubt on saying there is no genuine medical need for the procedures being no one is able to say exactly what genuine medical need and that it's just a simple mental issue.

The fact that it's deliberate sin is very much at the center of all of this. Is it deliberate sin? Are we really comfortable telling people with a possible medical condition we don't understand, that it's the place of faith to tell them they are evil if they seek to address it? If we do not understand the problem should we be giving quotes that are quite general but don't for sure speak to the need of the individual. God makes hermaphrodites from what i understand the church allows them to pick which gender they want to be and doesn't ask too many questions. We've seen example of obvious outer gender mutations being allowed this surgery not always to save a life, just to make it easier. So why do we question if it's something like brain structure causing the persons life to be harder? If we can't see the cause we can dismiss it as being selfish and prone to sin? Yes sometimes the " it's my nature" can be wrong, yet there are times it's true and needs to be addressed. My only concern in this is the possible taboo people see in this issue and the fact it might make it a lot easier to see black and white where there is possible gray.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

One thing I've learned well is that there is no sin so terrible, so foetid in the eyes of God, that it cannot be rationalized and made to be morally inconsequential. Yes, on top of all I said, I agree with Selek that doing this is a sin and for that reason alone should be reconsidered.

[richard_the_lion_hearted]

What is offensive or annoying about asking you to back up your allegations with fact?

You asked us to justify the Church's treatment of "transgenders", but have yet to demonstrate that the alleged behavior actually exists.

How can we provide a "satisfactory" answer to something we haven't demonstrated is actually taking place?

As far as "gender" issues go, let me point you towards the following:

Gender Is an Essential Characteristic of Eternal Identity and Purpose - Ensign Oct. 2008

Contrary to the way it's presented in the popular media, "sex-change" operations are nothing of the kind.

With the exception of certain rare medical conditions, such operations are little more than surgical self-mutilation- and are an attempt at self-deception.

If you are born male, the surgery won't change that fact or nature. A genetic test on a "former male" will show a male. A test on a "former female" will show a female.

Your physical body may have been structurally altered- but your underlying nature remains- and your body will do its best to continue that nature.

Also- such surgery (especially when elective) is not a "one-time" thing, but an on-going process. A body born "male" will continue to try and be "male" and must be chemically bludgeoned into submission- meaning hormone treatments and other medications for the remainder of the patient's life.

Do you remember the big scandal about supplemental estrogen treatments from a few years back?

Post menopausal women were advised to take estrogen supplements to deal with their symptoms- right up until those treatments were linked to increased cervical, ovarian, and breast cancers.

The same is undoubtedly true for those who've had gender reassignments as they attempt to drug their bodies into being something they are not.

Optional (meaning medically unnecessary) "gender reassignment" surgery is an attempt to be something that you are not- it is willful denial of your God-given physical (and eternal) nature.

By engaging in such self-deception and such willful denial, you are essentially telling God he was wrong, and thumbing your nose at him.

Yes- "gender reassignment" is sometimes necessary to correct medical problems.

But to do so simply "because I feel like it" is to mock God.

Unless such surgery is correcting a medical condition (such as that described in the article Anatess links to) such surgery is little more than the elective (and optional) mutilation- the deliberate desecration of- the Temple that God gave you (your body).

By deliberately desecrating that which God gave you- and the role he assigned you- you are deliberately thumbing your nose at Heavenly Father and mocking him.

How can God look upon such actions with favor?

Also contrary to popular belief, holding the Priesthood is a privilege- not a right.

The Priesthood is reserved for those who are actively seeking to serve their fellow man and to glorify God.

Why would/should that privilege be extended to those who deliberately thumb their noses at God?

Finally- those who are serving God sincerely and with all their hearts are under no condemnation.

God does not- and will not- condemn us for honest mistakes.

Only for prideful sin and deliberate disobedience.

Selek, I'm not too sure that the Lord would look upon your responses as being loving or compassionate. You cannot say words like 'willfully' or 'deliberately' when you know not the heart of the person you are condemning, where mankind often lacks the full scope of compassion (charity) the Lord has already suffered all sins by all mankind, He suffered yours, mine, and Korrotassa's as well. That being said I believe that true, honest confusion or lack of understanding does not condemn forthright. Although we know right and wrong there are deceptions that do make the truth elusive and harder to find for those suffering in the midst of the temptation or sin (not always answered upon the head of the person in question either). Everything in it's due order, everything in the time of the Lord and of the person suffering to come to terms with giving ALL to the Lord and actually understanding what that means.

It took me to be cast into prison at my lowest point, unrightously judged yet guilty because of my crime which did take place and put me before that unrightous judge. In my cell, scared and truly humbled, only then did I cast out ALL preconceived notions, all my pride, and for the first time (at 18) I heard the Spirit speak to me and testify the Jesus was in fact the Savior, the way (this being after much pondering, many tearful, hurting prayers throughout my young life). How disappointed the Lord was when He looked upon those who would condemn me (and some did), based on a few blanket staements and facts. They knew not my heart, my pain, my suffering that started as a young boy, the sins, the anger I was chained to because of a loved one, a trusted family elder of mine (by age) and their sins against me.

Remember, ignorance is no excuse with man's law...the Lord knows all, sees all, knows the 'intent' of the heart, and therefore seldom condemns any other than the 'sons of perdition' before their due time, which I believe is the individual's lifetime. It may not be wise to accept the truth on your deathbed given that no one knows when they will die, but it IS possible. Therefore what I am saying to you is that just saying it's wrong doesn't suffice, nor does giving a blanket staement of what one feels when you do not know their thoughts. God bless you, I'm sure by the knowledge I can read from your posts that you will understand what I am saying and why you were taken as offensive by Korrotassa.

Korrotassa, if you really want the truth just remember it may not be the truth you want. You cannot believe on one hand and not the other, meaning if you believe that Jesus is the Christ then you must accept the 'whole' of the gospel and know that you WERE created out of love, and it was no mishap or chance, it was carefully, with complete omnipotent wisdom decided. Be thankful, honor that and embrace it. :)

[selek]

Selek, I'm not too sure that the Lord would look upon your responses as being loving or compassionate.

I'm sure the Pharisees and Saducees felt the same way about a number of things the Savior himself had to say.

That doesn't make them any less true.

You cannot say words like 'willfully' or 'deliberately' when you know not the heart of the person you are condemning, where mankind often lacks the full scope of compassion (charity) the Lord has already suffered all sins by all mankind, He suffered yours, mine, and Korrotassa's as well.

And yet I'm condemning no one.

Korrotassa wanted us to discuss the Church's treatment of "transgenders" in general.

That's precisely what I've done.

No where have I condemned Korrotassa as a person, and I've called only him to task specifically in a single instance- his slanderous and still unproven allegations that the Church was somehow "unkind" to "transgenders".

That being said I believe that true, honest confusion or lack of understanding does not condemn forthright.

Did you miss the following statement when you quoted it?

Finally- those who are serving God sincerely and with all their hearts are under no condemnation.

God does not- and will not- condemn us for honest mistakes.

Only for prideful sin and deliberate disobedience.

I wasn't condemning anyone specifically.

My comments were about behavior in general.

[NeuroTypical]

From what I understand about transgender operations, the process to get one involves meeting with counselors and waiting periods and whatnot. I guess because a lot of folks seek out such operations as a way to fix an unrelated problem, which turns out is a horrible reason to have gender reassignment surgery. High suicide rates, high rate of changing your mind before and after, high rates of emotional and mental problems before and worse after.

I learned all that from a representative from the GLBT community who came to my work and talked about the struggles such folk have.

It was exaggerated.

Sounds like you've made your mind up.

[Korrotassa]

I didn't ask to be judged. I didn't ask for ones overview of Transgenders in general.

I asked if I became mtf, If I would basically: be abandoned by the Church. Never again set foot inside a Temple. And never be able to shake hands with the bishop at least while his eyes are full of pride, and compassion as if he thought I was just one of the best youth in the ward.

That was my question. Its been answered as well as it could be. So stop fighting in this thread, Selek.

If anyone who can sees this; I'd like this thread to be outright deleted if possible.

[Wingnut]

(in addition to his as-yet unproven allegations of "unkindness")

Kindness or unkindness is not something can be proven. It someone feels you were unkind to them, that is their feeling and their perception. It may not have been your intent, but by saying what you have, you are invalidating their feelings.

I asked if I became mtf, If I would basically: be abandoned by the Church. Never again set foot inside a Temple. And never be able to shake hands with the bishop at least while his eyes are full of pride, and compassion as if he thought I was just one of the best youth in the ward.

I think MOE did a pretty good job on the first page, but to add to it...

You would not automatically be excommunicated simply by virtue of having had the surgery. That's not to say that you wouldn't be at all, but that this is something taken on a case-by-case basis. However, temple blessings would definitely not be made available to you.

[Wingnut]

Korrotassa, I just read in your intro post that you are only 17. Obviously, whether or not you go through with the gender reassignment process is up to you, but it would be advisable for you to wait at least 5 more years before going through it.

[bassguru]

Why would you change your body through surgery when in the resurrection all will be restored? Perhaps you would be better served in the eternities by learning to love yourself as you are now.

[richard_the_lion_hearted]

Selek, I apologize for using the word 'condemn', I wrote my response right before bed and as I usually proof-read anything I write 2-3 times, being under the influences of the flu I must have missed that, as well as your last paragraph. I do still stand by my statements in the matter of how you came across as being offensive because I was taken aback by your choice of wording, I know that Korrotassa was.

I do understand what you said, you are right, I just think you could have been less 'abrasive' for lack of a better word. My concern is only for those bruised, shattered spirits and them being possibly driven away rather then entreated and welcomed and possibly falling further into deception and sin, that was and is my motivation, and always will be because of my life experiences. I love all my brothers and sisters, I love you. I just personally know how 'fuzzy' things can be discerned by those under attack and only wish to acknowledge that in my discussions with any who suffer from sin whether it be thoughts or actions, to be more loving, like Christ. The story of Jesus and the harlot comes to mind and the limited words yet very powerful actions that the Lord took in embracing that dear daughter of God gone astray with His love.

My statements to Korrotassa were (and are) intended to be thought provoking because I believe that the answer is simple in the spirit of the gospel, just very hard to accept sometimes until one gives up their pride and preconceived thoughts and allows the Lord to touch them with understanding through the Holy Spirit.

Edited January 27, 2011 by richard_the_lion_hearted

[NeuroTypical]

thread closed - OP seems to be done with it.