Does God REALLY Have Objective Moral Truths?

[slamjet]

All I know is if I see a GA come after me with a sword, I'll know I'm out of the running for the Celestial Kingdom.

[Seminarysnoozer]

So, appeals to scripture won't work.

People, we need some kind of evidence to support a belief in eternal OBJECTIVE truths. We have to remember, as stated above, most of our sources for allegedly "eternal" truths come from God, which means that we logically have to set those examples aside. We need to find something to demonstrate that God has objective moral truths that he has to follow. And we need to find out what those truths are. I don't think I'm treading on forbidden territory by wanting to know what rules God has to follow.

You are not treading on forbidden territory by wanting to know what rules God has to follow but you are treading on territory that leads to hardening of the heart by suggesting that we "need some kind of evidence". This is exactly what I was saying before that you are blowing off as nothing, this desire for proof.

Moroni said; "And it came to pass that Ether did prophesy great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe, because they saw them not.

6And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith."

You will not get the objective evidence until after the trial of your faith. Sometimes we get evidence otherwise but it is always had through someone's faith. For example, Jesus showed himself to Joseph Smith because of his faith. And now, we benefit from that "objective" proof, like the scripture above.

To tell everyone that they "need" proof is very wrong. I would hope that you could see that mistake and not promote that type of thinking if you are really a promoter of truth. Only some are given the gift of the spirit of knowledge, others have the gift of believing in the testimony of others. It is not necessary for all to seek after objective, provable truths. I don't know what gift God has given you any more than I would know for anyone else but I can say though that not everyone "needs" to gain an "objective" understanding of God's ways. Maybe you think you do, but I would recommend pondering the possibility that God wants all of us to have a trial of faith first which is one of the main reasons to be here in this probationary state. When we die, we will all have all the objective information, which will be more than we could possibly accumulate in this life, a million times over.

[Backroads]

All I know is if I see a GA come after me with a sword, I'll know I'm out of the running for the Celestial Kingdom.

[JohnnyRudick]

All I know is if I see a GA come after me with a sword, I'll know I'm out of the running for the Celestial Kingdom.

Unless you were meant to go to the next level now:)

[slamjet]

Unless you were meant to go to the next level now:)

Thanks for the confidence, but reality say's otherwise

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by apollyon

So, appeals to scripture won't work.

People, we need some kind of evidence to support a belief in eternal OBJECTIVE truths.

Actually, I think we can use an appeal to scripture. We just have to sift through the rules, procedures, policies, and laws to determine which are actually eternal, and which are made for man in a telestial world.

We read that "charity never faileth" even when all other things fail. That should tell us that all roads and laws lead to Christ-like infinite love.

Objective truths that never are false:

1. God lives

2. Jesus is the Christ

3. All will die (although some will not taste of death)

4. We all will resurrect

5. All will be judged by Christ

6. Level of salvation depends upon a person's faith, repentance, receiving of ordinances and the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end in righteousness.

7. Priesthood is eternal

I could go on, but these are a beginning to the eternal truths that will not change.

[JohnnyRudick]

Actually, I think we can use an appeal to scripture. We just have to sift through the rules, procedures, policies, and laws to determine which are actually eternal, and which are made for man in a telestial world.

We read that "charity never faileth" even when all other things fail. That should tell us that all roads and laws lead to Christ-like infinite love.

Objective truths that never are false:

1. God lives

2. Jesus is the Christ

3. All will die (although some will not taste of death)

4. We all will resurrect

5. All will be judged by Christ

6. Level of salvation depends upon a person's faith, repentance, receiving of ordinances and the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end in righteousness.

7. Priesthood is eternal

I could go on, but these are a beginning to the eternal truths that will not change.

But he (OP) says that we only have God's word for those you list that we believe are Eternal truth:(

[Matthew0059]

Before the discussion continues, a thought:

According to scripture, "truth" is defined as "a knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come" (D&C 93:24, emphasis mine). I am unaware of anywhere in Holy Write where 'truth' is defined as any eternal or temporal law or commandment.

FATHER works according to eternal law, such as the law of justice (Alma 42:13). We know that if HE violates these laws, HE will cease to be GOD (Alma 42:13-25). Therefore, these laws are outside of HIM, although HE lives in perfect accord with them.

Equating eternal law to 'truth' is the same as equating one's personal understanding and idea of a tree to an actual tree. The idea may be grand, but an idea cannot provide shade or lumber.

[JohnnyRudick]

Before the discussion continues, a thought:

According to scripture, "truth" is defined as "a knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come" (D&C 93:24, emphasis mine). I am unaware of anywhere in Holy Write where 'truth' is defined as any eternal or temporal law or commandment.

FATHER works according to eternal law, such as the law of justice (Alma 42:13). We know that if HE violates these laws, HE will cease to be GOD (Alma 42:13-25). Therefore, these laws are outside of HIM, although HE lives in perfect accord with them.

Equating eternal law to 'truth' is the same as equating one's personal understanding and idea of a tree to an actual tree. The idea may be grand, but an idea cannot provide shade or lumber.

You started out with "According to scripture, "truth" is defined as. . . "

Again, if I understand him right (and I believe I got him right)

our OP says we only have God's word to say

what is in our writings and what the prophet says.

The OP wants to know what else we have encase

God may be arbitrary (a gentle way to put it) in what He says.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not

surely die:

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,

then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing

good and evil.

That was why I advised caution to him

about the direction he was taking.

Edited February 9, 2011 by JohnnyRudick
Afterthought:-)

[apollyon]

Just so you all know, I've stopped caring about this thread. Feel free to continue debating it though.

[GeneC]

I left the answer to the OP's question on the other side of the Veil. The question can not be answered (correctly) on this side of the Veil but be it through personal inspiration from the Spirit of the Lord, the ultimate knowledge comes by personal revelation through the Holy Ghost. But knowing that information here and now would negate the reason I've come to earth.

Absolute Truth

By President Spencer W. Kimball

Absolute Truth - Ensign Sept. 1978

When we were spiritual beings, fully organized and able to think and study and understand with him, our Heavenly Father said to us, in effect: “Now, my beloved children, in your spirit state you have progressed about as far as you can. To continue your development, you need physical bodies. I intend to provide a plan whereby you may continue your growth. As you know, one can grow only by overcoming.

-----

The Apostle Paul wrote that “all scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16; see also 2 Peter 1:21) and that “the things of God knoweth no man, [except he has] the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:11; see footnote c, from Joseph Smith Translation).

-----

I say:

1) We don't know the "rules of engagement" He has in the War against Satan and Evil

2) Truth is tempered by both Justice and Mercy (among other factors) such as stated by;

Elder Russell M. Nelson

We must realize that we are at war. The war began before the world was and will continue. The forces of the adversary are extant upon the earth. All of our virtuous motives, if transmitted only by inertia and timidity, are no match for the resolute wickedness of those who oppose us.

Elder Russell M. Nelson also said that:

"The word truth is used 435 times in the scriptures. I have studied each of them. In 374 of those instances, truth is coupled in the same verse with some form of a strengthening term:

spirit 59

mercy(-iful) 47

right(-eousness) 42

holy(-iness) 36

judgment 23

light 23

grace 22

good(-ly, -liness) 21

love 18

peace 16

just(ice) 13

faith(-fulness) 12

loving kindness 11

wisdom 10

soberness 5

sanctified 4

kindness 3

sincerity 3

free 2

godliness 2

long-suffering 1

valiant 1

Total 374*

The vast majority (374/435) of scriptural references to this weighty word exemplify the importance of truth and more.

What do these figures tell us? Just as oxen may be equally yoked together to accomplish what one could not do alone, so the power of truth is augmented if equally yoked with righteousness or with mercy or with the spirit of love."

------

President Marion G. Romney stated:

"Jesus, however, immediately taught Nicodemus that the knowledge he sought was not to be had on such evidence alone, the evidence of seeing and hearing a miracle or seeing some great event. Jesus promptly pointed to the truth that without the aid of a superior learning process, a process sensitive to the infinite world of reality above and beyond the world of sensory perception, the kingdom of God could not be discovered, seen, or entered."

[Blackmarch]

I'd also like to note that altho God may be unchanging, man is changing all the time, and if we are to be guided, we need to have the things that will guide us best for our situation.

[Backroads]

Just so you all know, I've stopped caring about this thread. Feel free to continue debating it though.

Doesn't matter is you stop caring! Threads take on lives of their own.

[JohnnyRudick]

I left the answer to the OP's question on the other side of the Veil. The question can not be answered (correctly) on this side of the Veil but be it through personal inspiration from the Spirit of the Lord, the ultimate knowledge comes by personal revelation through the Holy Ghost. . . .

Again, The Holy Ghost would only testify according to what the Father hath said.

As the P has challenged (not me, him the OP),

What if we cannot rely on Heavenly Father for absolute truth?

According to his challenge, it may be that

He is not even "Heavenly Father",

we have only His word for it.

Yes, as I said, he the OP, has picked his

screen name very appropriately:(

Should he evenly be allowed to make such an assertion?