Why Would Anyone Who Believed In Christ..

[Guest Starsky]

I know with that intro....the anti's will flock in droves...but I really am speaking only to those who believe in God or at least say they do.

I would just like to ask ...why would those who believe in God, the Bible, and it's teachings ever believe being tolerant and accepting of the 'gay' life style is a good thing?

What you are doing is supporting 'sinners' in their sin. How is that helping them? How is supporting 'sin' worshipping Christ who suffered for all those sins?

How do you validate your 'christianity' when supporting, accepting, tolerating....the sinner ...and infact facilitating or at least giving strength to their committing sin...by trying to remove 'social' markers/laws which try to descourage 'sin'?

I just don't get it.

If you truly wanted what was 'best' for those gays...you would do everything in your power to help them not be gay...

Unless you really don't believe there is punishment for sin...and if that is so...then you really don't believe the scriptures or in God.

Those who truly 'hate' gays will support their sinful life style and say they are good people...etc...

But those who truly love them as brothers and sisters will not suppport the lie.

[Guest curvette]

Help them "not be gay?" I think that is only possible in situations where the homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. I think many "gay" people in the US are biologically hetrosexual and choose homosexuality. I think about 1% of all human beings though are simply homosexual by birth. For those people, I'm not going to judge whether or not they should live celibate lives. I certainly would never advocate that they try to "not be gay." It's very easy to be a Christian and believe this because the scriptures don't quote Christ as ever saying anything regarding homosexuality. If it wasn't important enough for him to mention, it's not important enough for me to judge.

[Maureen]

For me, I am tolerant of the gay lifestyle because I don't quite understand it. Is it genetics or choice or a combination of both? I don't know. And even though I don't understand this type of sexual attraction doesn't mean I should be hateful to gays and lesbians. They are just like me - with good and bad qualities. Like we have heard or read before "He who is without sin, can cast the first stone." That leaves me out.

M.

[Guest Starsky]

I was just going to quote this one verse...

D&C 1:

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

....

but decided the whole things needed to be read and pondered in regards to your post Curvette..

D&C 1

Do you believe that servants words are the same as God's words?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 28 2004, 01:02 PM

I was just going to quote this one verse...

D&C 1:

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

....

but decided the whole things needed to be read and pondered in regards to your post Curvette..

D&C 1

Do you believe that servants words are the same as God's words?

There are many words God's "servants" have spoken which have turned out to be false doctrine. So, I prefer to stick to what the Savior says directly.

[Guest Starsky]

Of course you already know this one:

Leviticus 18:

21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 28 2004, 01:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 28 2004, 01:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 01:02 PM

I was just going to quote this one verse...

D&C 1:

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

....

but decided the whole things needed to be read and pondered in regards to your post Curvette..

D&C 1

Do you believe that servants words are the same as God's words?

There are many words God's "servants" have spoken which have turned out to be false doctrine. So, I prefer to stick to what the Savior says directly.

Your choice....but on the subject of sin...I would listen.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Maureen@Feb 28 2004, 01:00 PM

For me, I am tolerant of the gay lifestyle because I don't quite understand it. Is it genetics or choice or a combination of both? I don't know. And even though I don't understand this type of sexual attraction doesn't mean I should be hateful to gays and lesbians. They are just like me - with good and bad qualities. Like we have heard or read before "He who is without sin, can cast the first stone." That leaves me out.

M.

Whose throwing stones? It is sin...we condemn and hate.

We should love our brothers and sisters by not supporting their sinful and destructive behaviors...don't confuse what I stated very clearly.

I put this in a clearly religious setting....it isn't about social acceptence...it is about eternal salvation and condemnation and the suffering that is going to be caused...both here and eternally.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 28 2004, 01:08 PM

Of course you already know this one:

Leviticus 18:

21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

Yes. Old Testament scripture also says that women are unclean after childbirth, men cannot touch their menstruating wives, people who "diss" their parents are stoned to death...well, you get the picture. Can we pick and choose?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 28 2004, 01:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 28 2004, 01:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 01:08 PM

Of course you already know this one:

Leviticus 18:

21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

Yes. Old Testament scripture also says that women are unclean after childbirth, men cannot touch their menstruating wives, people who "diss" their parents are stoned to death...well, you get the picture. Can we pick and choose?

That doesn't dimiss the principle which is being taught in the scripture about being defiled sexually.

Yes indeed we can pick and choose...

but the NT teaches against the defiling of the temple of God also....so ...

And as for picking and choosing..you already seem to be doing a lot of that...so why ask?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 28 2004, 01:21 PM

And as for picking and choosing..you already seem to be doing a lot of that...so why ask?

Because I DO pick and choose. I combine the things I perceive to be from the "spirit" with the things that make sense to me from the physical world (ie: science.) I don't base all of my opinions solely on the often contradictory scriptures (which are written by humans with varying amounts of inspiration from various sources.) The combination of mind and heart (or body and spirit) seem to be the ideal in my thinking.

[Guest Starsky]

THE FIRST EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO

TIMOTHY

CHAPTER 1

Exhortation to teach true doctrine only—Christ came to save repentant sinners.

1 PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly dedifying which is in faith: so do.

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

[DisRuptive1]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 28 2004, 10:01 AM

I would just like to ask ...why would those who believe in God, the Bible, and it's teachings ever believe being tolerant and accepting of the 'gay' life style is a good thing?

What you are doing is supporting 'sinners' in their sin [by being tolerant of it].

How do you validate your 'christianity' when supporting, accepting, tolerating....[homosexuals]....

cont.If you truly wanted what was 'best' for those gays...you would do everything in your power to help them not be gay...

When it is possible for me to help people NOT be gay, then I will help those that don't want to be gay, not to be gay. But for now, I don't believe there is any ethical method for doing so.

Unless you really don't believe there is punishment for sin...

I believe all sins are to be punished in one way or another...

...and if that is so...then you really don't believe the scriptures or in God.

Therefore, according to your logic, I believe in scriptures and in God.

Those who truly 'hate' gays will support their sinful life style and say they are good people...etc...

Therefore, according to your [sarcasm]SOUND LOGIC[/sarcasm], I hate gays. Therefore, if I am to love gays and love everyone like Christ says I must say they are bad people and do everything to take away support for their life style. I must have anti-gay rallies, I must stamp down on their parades and make a mockery of them wherever I see them, so that they will become closet homosexuals. I must keep them from living their lifestyles in peace. I must be mean and rude to them to get them to stop. I must ask unChrist-like towards them. Does anybody else see the paradox that Peace has created???

But those who truly love them as brothers and sisters will not suppport the lie.

Ah now we agree on something. Doesn't mean I shouldn't suport the person? Strange that those LDS people that are homosexual wait until their told by their bishop and family and loved ones that their lifestyle is wrong before they go kill themselves. Maybe if we supported the person and tried to understand what they were going through, maybe they might choose to live in sin, then die trying to live perfectly. Eh, I think supporting the sin and allowing them to do whatever they choose to do, is more Christlike than telling them they are wrong and need to stop.

[Lindy]

Maybe if we supported the person and tried to understand what they were going through, maybe they might choose to live in sin, then die trying to live perfectly. Eh, I think supporting the sin and allowing them to do whatever they choose to do, is more Christlike than telling them they are wrong and need to stop.

I guess the same could be said for those who choose a sinful lifestyle of anykind then huh? I had a list...but I might have offended someone on the board.

Sometimes, tough love is the hardest thing to show others, but if it makes them wake up and realize what they are doing is wrong, wrong, wrong....then I think it is worth withdrawing support for that cause.

If killing yourself over the lifestyle you have chosen, or the lack of life you have (for other chosen reasons)....was acceptable in the eyes of God...then a lot of people would choose to not exist anymore. I would take the first number.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Feb 28 2004, 03:34 PM

Sometimes, tough love is the hardest thing to show others, but if it makes them wake up and realize what they are doing is wrong, wrong, wrong....then I think it is worth withdrawing support for that cause.

If killing yourself over the lifestyle you have chosen, or the lack of life you have (for other chosen reasons)....was acceptable in the eyes of God...then a lot of people would choose to not exist anymore. I would take the first number.

You seem like an extremely compassionate person Lindy. I have a hard time envisioning you withdrawing your affection from anyone you care about. Under what circumstances would you advocate tough love? And how close do you think you have to be to someone to do so and have it be effective?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+Feb 28 2004, 01:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Feb 28 2004, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 01:21 PM

And as for picking and choosing..you already seem to be doing a lot of that...so why ask?

Because I DO pick and choose. I combine the things I perceive to be from the "spirit" with the things that make sense to me from the physical world (ie: science.) I don't base all of my opinions solely on the often contradictory scriptures...

The scriptures...in principle....never, ever contradict.....

It is only those who don't understand them...that think they find contradictions...seriously.

[Guest Starsky]

Curvette states:

The combination of mind and heart (or body and spirit) seem to be the ideal in my thinking.

If they don't contradict each other....which quite often they do...

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Feb 28 2004, 03:34 PM

Maybe if we supported the person and tried to understand what they were going through, maybe they might choose to live in sin, then die trying to live perfectly. Eh, I think supporting the sin and allowing them to do whatever they choose to do, is more Christlike than telling them they are wrong and need to stop.

I guess the same could be said for those who choose a sinful lifestyle of anykind then huh? I had a list...but I might have offended someone on the board.

Sometimes, tough love is the hardest thing to show others, but if it makes them wake up and realize what they are doing is wrong, wrong, wrong....then I think it is worth withdrawing support for that cause.

If killing yourself over the lifestyle you have chosen, or the lack of life you have (for other chosen reasons)....was acceptable in the eyes of God...then a lot of people would choose to not exist anymore. I would take the first number.

I agree with you Lindy. There are many things worse than death...Death is not the boogyman...it is the porthole to God's kingdom, if you live righteously....

There is something a whole lot wore than the physical death and that is the spiritual death...called sin.

If someone is on drugs, or being a prostitute and you have a chance to help them stop by being a cop, or law maker ....wouldn't you try and close the door to their addictions and dangerous lifestyles?

I can't see why anyone wouldn't think homosexuals are doing a great deal of harm to themselves....but more than this...a great deal of harm to the our future generations...

[Lindy]

Originally posted by curvette@Feb 28 2004, 03:56 PM

You seem like an extremely compassionate person Lindy. I have a hard time envisioning you withdrawing your affection from anyone you care about. Under what circumstances would you advocate tough love? And how close do you think you have to be to someone to do so and have it be effective?

Thanks Curvette, I try to be, and I am very loyal to those I care about.

Under what circumstances would I advocate tough love?

Under any circumstance I deem necessary to get a major point across. For example: if your son is heading down a pathway to destruction...via drugs, alcohol, crime, etc. and you have tried various other means of trying to help him turn away from the lifestyle he has chosen to follow. Knowing where he is heading, and wanting to help, before his lifestyle consumes him completely. And said other means have not helped to control the situation, then drastic measures need to be taken to give son a reality check before he turns 21 and lands in prison for the rest of his life. (Or worse)

Tough love is having your son arrested, and sent to a "hard core" correctional facility instead of the "daycare" detention camp he joked about being in earlier. Tougher yet is knowing that as a mother you have been counseled (by more than one agency) not to visit him during the duration of his sentence, because as a loving mother, you would do everything in your power to get your son out of that place which quite possibly the only thing that could help him at that time. When sent a letter written in his blood (from poking thumbtacks in his finger), telling you how you were killing him by sending him to that hell hole...it was tough love just to call to check on him, and not to pull him out.

Was it worth the sorrow and the tears on my part?....said son got his G.E.D in lock up, took anger management and drug/alcohol abuse classes, learned to stop-rethink-before reacting, learned about life in the fast lane and where it got you, learned that he didn't like feeling like a criminal, he turned his life around, cleaned up and learned that he had to take responsibility for his actions and face the consequences of the actions he took.

His father, who had shut him out of his life for years, was now "the concerned" father ....who stepped back into his life to do what I couldn't allow myself to do....blame me for his (sons) problems.

Son is now a very happy, healthy, loving, independant person working for a bank these days. He loves his mother, and we have a great relationship because of the strength of that love.

Tough? It was tough. Love? Sometimes you have to come down hard on the ones you love the most...to save them from themselves.

How close do you have to be to someone? If you love that person with all your heart, and know that if you don't step in and do something drastic...that you may lose that person you love forever.....I think that is close enough. Effectiveness is in the planning of the toughness. I would say that the severity of tough love depends on the age, the emotional/physical levels and the willingness you have to stand behind what you say.

When we send a child to the corner for "time out" and hear the racking sobs from a broken heart, and we have to let him/her "think" for a few minutes before we go to comfort the child...that's a version of tough love....it is just as tough on us as it is on them. Teaching them to listen..to stop the behavior before being 'punished'. in most cases....it works.

[Lindy]

If someone is on drugs, or being a prostitute and you have a chance to help them stop by being a cop, or law maker ....wouldn't you try and close the door to their addictions and dangerous lifestyles?

Of course I would try to help them by telling them how I feel, what dangers they are putting in their lives, etc.

I have been put in that position....(telling people I care about) that their lifestyle is harmful to themselves. One, turned around and admitted that he knew it, but he didn't care. He enjoyed his lifestyle, and I cry inside knowing that he will probably either OD or die of AIDS.

Another admits wrong doing, but figures he can just repent whenever he wants, a distorted lifestyle without caring about a spiritual death, which in my opinion ( I agree with you) is far worse.

All you can do it try...most of the time, it's up to them.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Feb 28 2004, 05:56 PM

For example: if your son is heading down a pathway to destruction...via drugs, alcohol, crime, etc. and you have tried various other means of trying to help him turn away from the lifestyle he has chosen to follow. Knowing where he is heading, and wanting to help, before his lifestyle consumes him completely. And said other means have not helped to control the situation, then drastic measures need to be taken to give son a reality check before he turns 21 and lands in prison for the rest of his life. (Or worse)

Tough love is having your son arrested, and sent to a "hard core" correctional facility instead of the "daycare" detention camp he joked about being in earlier. Tougher yet is knowing that as a mother you have been counseled (by more than one agency) not to visit him during the duration of his sentence, because as a loving mother, you would do everything in your power to get your son out of that place which quite possibly the only thing that could help him at that time. When sent a letter written in his blood (from poking thumbtacks in his finger), telling you how you were killing him by sending him to that hell hole...it was tough love just to call to check on him, and not to pull him out.

Was it worth the sorrow and the tears on my part?....said son got his G.E.D in lock up, took anger management and drug/alcohol abuse classes, learned to stop-rethink-before reacting, learned about life in the fast lane and where it got you, learned that he didn't like feeling like a criminal, he turned his life around, cleaned up and learned that he had to take responsibility for his actions and face the consequences of the actions he took.

Yes. I totally agree with this kind of "tough love." I haven't (knock on wood) yet had a child head down that path, but I've watched an aunt send her child off to a facility in Mexico because she didn't know what else to do. She was also alone in raising this child--the child's father having basically abandoned them and then committed suicide. The child just turned 18 and was released and she's doing great--rebuilding her relationship with her mom. She 'gets it" now and understands how hard it was for her mom to send her there.

I just don't think this kind of approach would work with a homosexual child. I think a parent should counsel the child, look at all possiblilities that may be causing the child to feel that they are homosexual. Children need to understand that having homosexual attraction during adolescence is completely normal and does not mean that they are necessarily homosexual. Also researching scientific explanations should be discussed. Shutting them out or sending them away for "reprogramming" doesn't seem a viable solution in the case of homosexuality IMHO.

[Lindy]

I just don't think this kind of approach would work with a homosexual child. I think a parent should counsel the child, look at all possiblilities that may be causing the child to feel that they are homosexual. Children need to understand that having homosexual attraction during adolescence is completely normal and does not mean that they are necessarily homosexual. Also researching scientific explanations should be discussed. Shutting them out or sending them away for "reprogramming" doesn't seem a viable solution in the case of homosexuality IMHO.

I totally agree with you Curvette....I don't know what I would do in a situation like that (also knocking on wood).. But I do know that the emotional aspects of something like this are much more volatile than just a criminal record.

Met a young man who was a young army private....who couldn't handle the fact that he thought he was gay...he wouldn't talk to anyone about it...just tried to drink himself to death....when that didn't work....he hung himself.

Knowing the turmoil he felt inside made me sad, do I wish that he would have opened up and talked to me? Yes, I do...I don't condone the lifestyle, but I would have tried to help him because he was a confused young man.

[Guest Starsky]

Wow Lindy,

I can't quote all of what you posted above, but I think you are amazing. Thank you for sharing.

[sanctuaryave]

I guess I treat this in much the same way Jesus dealt with the adultress. "Let he who is guiltless cast the first stone." He valued her enough then to say..."woman where are your accusers? Go now and sin no more"

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sanctuaryave@Feb 29 2004, 02:00 AM

I guess I treat this in much the same way Jesus dealt with the adultress. "Let he who is guiltless cast the first stone." He valued her enough then to say..."woman where are your accusers? Go now and sin no more"

Good point....go and sin no more.