different "levels" in heaven

[MrShorty]

As I listen to Christian radio, every once in a while I will hear something that doesn't "mesh" with what I have been led to believe that Christian's believe. One that I've heard a couple of times deals with different "levels" of reward or position in heaven. It is often presented along the lines of "coming to saving faith opens the door and lets you into heaven. Once there, some will be rewarded more than others based on our obedience/disobedience" or something along those lines. The picture I had been presented was basically a two sided coin: heaven or hell and everyone in heaven is rewarded equally and everyone in hell is "rewarded" equally.

[rameumptom]

There are some traditional Christians who are now coming to believe that there may be levels of rewards in the one heaven. When Jesus says there are many mansions in his Father's kingdom, it represents varying rewards, but one heaven. And it helps them to understand how two people can obtain heaven, while one worked much harder than the other to obtain it.

In one sense, LDS also believe in one heaven, or one salvation from perdition. From there, we divide it up into levels of heaven or glory: celestial, terrestrial, telestial. Of course, we then divide the celestial kingdom into 3 parts. Chances are there are more parts in the other kingdoms, and perhaps even within those 3 parts of the celestial world. Yet, in another sense it is still one heaven.

[madeleine1]

The ideas might be similar but Christian theology is that God cannot be divided, so "kingdoms" in the sense of Mormon teaching (as I understand it) requires that God is divided.

My understanding of "many mansions" is that there is a place for everyone. The sick are healed, the sorrowful are comforted, the lonely are with God, etc.

Any reward, I understand in light of the event where the blind man was healed, and Jesus said it was done so that others could see the glory of God manifest.

[Jason_J]

The ideas might be similar but Christian theology is that God cannot be divided, so "kingdoms" in the sense of Mormon teaching (as I understand it) requires that God is divided.

What do you mean by God being divided?

[madeleine1]

What do you mean by God being divided?

Two ways I see that God is divided.

- God desires nothing but good for us. It is through this we are brought to His presence in heaven. Dividing heaven as Mormons do divides God's will.

- There is but One God, and One Kingdom of God. I see in Mormonism a division of God into three gods, ruling over three kingdoms. Therefore, God is divided and is no longer One.

[Jason_J]

Two ways I see that God is divided.

- God desires nothing but good for us. It is through this we are brought to His presence in heaven. Dividing heaven as Mormons do divides God's will.

But madeleine, you're not explaining how exactly "dividing heaven as Mormons do" does this. It would be helpful for you to expound on what it is Mormons are actually saying, in your understanding.

From my perspective, there is no division in God's will in the LDS understanding of Heaven. We each have our own rewards based on our faith and works. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost can therefore minister to people based on this, however only those in the Celestial Kingdom will dwell in Their eternal presence. God wants us all to receive eternal life and live in His eternal presence, however not all of us will.

- There is but One God, and One Kingdom of God. I see in Mormonism a division of God into three gods, ruling over three kingdoms. Therefore, God is divided and is no longer One.

LDS belief that there is only one Kingdom of God as well, however His Kingdom has many mansions, as the Bible teaches.

God is clearly three distinct Persons, a belief that is found in traditional Christianity as well (it is in the Catechism). Saying that they are "one God" (something that LDS believe, though we differ from traditional Christians as to how exactly the three are one) does not negate the fact of their three-ness. Trinitarians believe that in the Incarnation, only the Son incarnated, and not the Father or the Holy Ghost (to say otherwise would be Unitarianism or Modalism). So, we have God the Son incarnating, while the Father and the Holy Ghost did not. Is this dividing God? In the same way, Latter-day Saints can say that in the Celestial Kingdom, people will be in the presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, while in the Terrestrial Kingdom, people will be ministered to by the Son, and in the Telestial Kingdom, people will be ministered to by the Holy Ghost. None of this negates the oneness of the Godhead, anymore than the Son Incarnating and the other Two Persons not does.

[madeleine1]

But madeleine, you're not explaining how exactly "dividing heaven as Mormons do" does this. It would be helpful for you to expound on what it is Mormons are actually saying, in your understanding.

From my perspective, there is no division in God's will in the LDS understanding of Heaven. We each have our own rewards based on our faith and works. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost can therefore minister to people based on this, however only those in the Celestial Kingdom will dwell in Their eternal presence. God wants us all to receive eternal life and live in His eternal presence, however not all of us will.

LDS belief that there is only one Kingdom of God as well, however His Kingdom has many mansions, as the Bible teaches.

God is clearly three distinct Persons, a belief that is found in traditional Christianity as well (it is in the Catechism). Saying that they are "one God" (something that LDS believe, though we differ from traditional Christians as to how exactly the three are one) does not negate the fact of their three-ness. Trinitarians believe that in the Incarnation, only the Son incarnated, and not the Father or the Holy Ghost (to say otherwise would be Unitarianism or Modalism). So, we have God the Son incarnating, while the Father and the Holy Ghost did not. Is this dividing God? In the same way, Latter-day Saints can say that in the Celestial Kingdom, people will be in the presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, while in the Terrestrial Kingdom, people will be ministered to by the Son, and in the Telestial Kingdom, people will be ministered to by the Holy Ghost. None of this negates the oneness of the Godhead, anymore than the Son Incarnating and the other Two Persons not does.

Jason-J- I don't intend to perform catechesis here. :) But there can be no mistaking, three distinct persons (Trinity) for three divided Gods (Mormonism). To do so is not correct Christian doctrine.

There is a vast difference in understanding Who God IS, between Mormons and Christianity. While we have similarities, this area is not one of them, and it doesn't serve justice to either belief to try to make a syncretic theology out of the two and call them the same thing.

The Son's Incarnation does not make Him a separate being from God from the Father and the Spirit. This is basic Christian teaching.

Basic Mormon teaching is that Jesus is a separate being, an exalted human, which in no way describes One God.

There is One Kingdom One God, Mormons have three kingdoms, they are even named in such a manner. Two are separate from the God who Mormons worship, as it has been explained to me that Mormons only worship the Father.

Being separate from God, who we worship, is the definition of hell not heaven, for a Christian.

God is divided in this, as God does not desire for us to have but a part of Himself. I don't know anyone who would call that perfect, and heaven is a place where we are perfected, through Jesus Christ, and no one else. If Jesus is not present in a "kingdom" then there is no perfection, and thus no heaven.

There is nothing in heaven that is not of God's will, so a belief that God wills a heaven that is short of the beatific vision, is self-creation of a divided will, which divides God. As God is One, and has but One Will.

Peace.

Edited March 18, 2011 by madeleine1

[Jason_J]

Jason-J- I don't intend to perform catechesis here. :)

That's fine, I'm well catechized in Catholic doctrine . My thoughts on the Trinity can be found here.

But there can be no mistaking, three distinct persons (Trinity) for three divided Gods (Mormonism). To do so is not correct Christian doctrine.

I don't believe I stated that the traditional Trinity and the LDS Godhead are the same thing. What I do say is that the traditional Trinity, as clearly affirmed in the Athanasian Creed, teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct from each other. As both the Catechism and the Athanasian Creed affirm, the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. That is the point that I was addressing.

There is a vast difference in understanding Who God IS, between Mormons and Christianity. While we have similarities, this area is not one of them, and it doesn't serve justice to either belief to try to make a syncretic theology out of the two and call them the same thing.

And nowhere did I claim that they are the same thing. If I did, please point it out. In fact, in my last post, I stated-"we differ from traditional Christians as to how exactly the three are one".

The Son's Incarnation does not make Him a separate being from God from the Father and the Spirit. This is basic Christian teaching.

Right, that is basic traditional Christian teaching. The Son is not a separate being from the Father and the Spirit, however He is a distinct Person from the Father and the Spirit, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms. To say otherwise is Unitarianism or Modalism.

Basic Mormon teaching is that Jesus is a separate being, an exalted human, which in no way describes One God.

Basic LDS teaching does not use the traditional Christian definitions of "being" and "person" to mean separate things. Instead, we use the terms interchangeably, as we do in everyday language. Where the traditional Trinitarian would say that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct Persons but one Being, we would say that they are distinct Persons/Beings, since we do not follow the traditional understanding of such terms (which originated in Greek/Latin speaking worlds).

They are "One God" in that they are one in purpose, mind, will, and intent.

There is One Kingdom One God, Mormons have three kingdoms, they are even named in such a manner. Two are separate from the God who Mormons worship, as it has been explained to me that Mormons only worship the Father.

LDS believe that the Celestial Kingdom, eternal life, is living in the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. They live in Their presence. In contrast, those in the Terrestrial Kingdom are visited by the Son, while those in the Telestial Kingdom are visited by the Holy Ghost. This is right out of the Gospel Principles manual, page 272.

The point I am making here is that the belief that the Son visits those in the Terrestrial Kingdom and the Spirit visits those in the Telestial Kingdom does not mean that one is "separating God", anymore than the traditional belief in the Incarnation. You haven't addressed the point that traditional Christians hold that it was only the Son that Incarnated, and not the Father nor the Spirit, since they are distinct Persons, where one is not the other (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 254). In this same way, the LDS belief does not separate God, because if it does, than the traditional view of the Incarnation does. This has nothing to do with equating the traditional Trinity with the LDS Godhead, but with understanding what it means for the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be distinct Persons, as the Catholic Church teaches.

Quite simply: one Person of the Godhead visiting people in one Kingdom is no different than saying that only one Person of the Trinity incarnated while the others did not.

Being separate from God, who we worship, is the definition of hell not heaven, for a Christian.

See below.

God is divided in this, as God does not desire for us to have but a part of Himself. I don't know anyone who would call that perfect, and heaven is a place where we are perfected, through Jesus Christ, and no one else. If Jesus is not present in a "kingdom" then there is no perfection, and thus no heaven.

Peace.

Unfortunately, this is not logical. Your first sentence does not follow a logical progression, and is a misrepresentation of LDS belief (please show where we teach that God "desires" for us to have a part of Himself, as we do not teach anything like that. Saying that the Son visits those in the Terrestrial Kingdom or the Spirit visits those in the Telestial is not saying what you said.). For Latter-day Saints, God wants all of us to receive eternal life, being in His eternal presence, and becoming like Him. All of the ordinances, teachings, and practices of His restored Church point towards that goal. Nothing is aimed at Terrestrial or Telestial kingdoms. "Perfection" is not achieved in these Kingdoms, and progression is halted (which, to LDS, can be termed "damnation"). Eternal life is only received through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

[Jason_J]

There is nothing in heaven that is not of God's will, so a belief that God wills a heaven that is short of the beatific vision, is self-creation of a divided will, which divides God. As God is One, and has but One Will.

Peace.

For Latter-day Saints, God's will is for all of us to be in His eternal presence and become like Him. Moses 1:39-"For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." God does not "will" us to receive anything less, even if He provides varying rewards and consequences for us based on our faith and works. What He wants for us is Celestial glory, through Christ's atonement.

[Jason_J]

In one sense, LDS also believe in one heaven, or one salvation from perdition. From there, we divide it up into levels of heaven or glory: celestial, terrestrial, telestial. Of course, we then divide the celestial kingdom into 3 parts. Chances are there are more parts in the other kingdoms, and perhaps even within those 3 parts of the celestial world. Yet, in another sense it is still one heaven.

Just wanted to repost this, as madeleine seems to not understand what I was saying when I said that there is "one Kingdom" which has many mansions.

[rameumptom]

Madeleine,

I think you are misinterpreting LDS belief in the extreme. And it is just as scriptural as the Trinity. You ought to study your Christian history. Origen and many other early Christians believed that the Father and Son were separate beings. Even after the Nice Creed was created in 4th century, it took another century for it to take root, as Arianism almost took over anyway (which isn't what Mormons teach, either).

Many ancient Christian documents show that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separate personages. Just check out the Ascension of Isaiah, it is online. Or, you can read Stephen's martyrdom in the book of Acts, where Christ is on the right hand of the Father. Guess what? That shows the two to be separate beings, unless you choose to make it a metaphor, rather than take it literal. Of course, you would have to consider Jesus' baptism and his time at Gethsemane and on the cross as a metaphor, as well. When Jesus said, "not my will, but thine be done" he didn't really mean they had two wills. And on the cross, God didn't really forsake him, as God cannot forsake himself. I could give several other examples, as well. In other words, our belief IS Biblical. You just don't believe it, which is fine.

That the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are also one God is also true. We just believe they are 3 separate beings that do all things in one. And the Bible totally supports that idea. As for the Trinity, many Bible scholars past and present do not believe it. Pres John Adams and Thomas Jefferson questioned it in letters to each other. Isaac Newton disbelieved in the Trinity, believing it to be non-Biblical. So, you have to recognize that your own statements here are not correct, but that LDS belief is as Biblical, if not moreso, as the Trinity.

[madeleine1]

Jason_J- I don't have any desire to argue about God. There are foundational differences, the first being, that God gave us free will in order that we could love him freelly. Not so that we could choose to go against His will. We aren't rewarded for going against God.

Jesus conquered death and sin. The life to come is begun by our Final Judgement, where Christ is Victorious. There isn't a sort-of, kind-of, conquering where evil is rewarded.

Peace.

Edited March 19, 2011 by madeleine1

[madeleine1]

remeumptom, I know Christian history. I believe God gave the gift of the Holy Spirit to His Church, at Pentecost, whereby she is lead. I can never understand Mormons bringing up the Church Fathers. Origen had opinions that were never Christian doctrine and are not Christian doctrine. He also adhered to doctrines that are Catholic, and very central to the Catholic faith, that Mormons have rejected. So I don't know what your point is.

I hold no belief in many Gods, but the One God, all powerful and ever loving. I don't see this One God in Mormonism, at all.

Peace

Edited March 19, 2011 by madeleine1

[Jason_J]

remeumptom, I know Christian history. I believe God gave the gift of the Holy Spirit to His Church, at Pentecost, whereby she is lead. I can never understand Mormons bringing up the Church Fathers. Origen had opinions that were never Christian doctrine and are not Christian doctrine. He also adhered to doctrines that are Christian, and very central to the Christian faith, that Mormons have rejected. So I don't know what your point is.

The point is to show evidence of LDS beliefs anciently. Of course we believe that the early Church went apostate, however that does not mean that we believe that it lost all truth. This is why we refer to the early Church Fathers, to show that LDS beliefs did not simply originate in the 1800s, but can be found in ancient Judaism and Christianity.

I hold no belief in many Gods, but the One God, all powerful and ever loving. I don't see this One God in Mormonism, at all.

Peace

Latter-day Saints believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, as our scriptures repeatedly assert. We also believe that the Father can be referred to as the "one God", as we see in the Bible (1 Cor 8:6). We disagree with traditional Christians as to how the three are one, however that does not mean that we don't believe that they are one.

[Jason_J]

Jason_J- I don't have any desire to argue about God. There are foundational differences, the first being, that God gave us free will in order that we could love him freelly. Not so that we could choose to go against His will. We aren't rewarded for going against God.

I don't need to argue about God either. My point is that your argument about God being divided in LDS belief equally applies to the traditional Christian belief, since your Church teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct persons who are not each other (as also affirmed in the Athanasian Creed). If this is true, then we know that Trinitarians believe that it was only the Son that incarnated, not the other Persons of the Trinity (it was not the Father that suffered and was crucified, for example, which is considered a heresy known as patripassianism). Clearly, the logic that you are using to criticize LDS belief extends to your own beliefs.

My other point was simply that your assertion that we believe in three beings while you don't doesn't work, since we do not share your definitions of "person" and "being", which originate in ancient Greek/Latin frameworks. However within that framework, you believe that while the three are one being, they are distinct persons (referring to two different concepts), and I was specifically addressing the distinct persons aspect.

Latter-day Saints don't believe that we are rewarded for going against God either. Again, anything less than eternal life, exaltation, living in the presence of the Godhead, can be considered damnation.

Jesus conquered death and sin. The life to come is begun by our Final Judgement, where Christ is Victorious. There isn't a sort-of, kind-of, conquering where evil is rewarded.

Peace.

Latter-day Saints don't believe that either. We believe, as I have already said, that the work and the glory of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). Everything in the Kingdom of God, His restored Church, is pointed towards eternal life, exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Not all people will accept the Lord's Gospel, and therefore there are different rewards and consequences based on the faith and works of the person. Unfortunately, all of these are less than what God wants for us. Clearly, evil is not rewarded, and this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of LDS beliefs if you think we teach that.

[madeleine1]

I don't need to argue about God either. My point is that your argument about God being divided in LDS belief equally applies to the traditional Christian belief, since your Church teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct persons who are not each other (as also affirmed in the Athanasian Creed). If this is true, then we know that Trinitarians believe that it was only the Son that incarnated, not the other Persons of the Trinity (it was not the Father that suffered and was crucified, for example, which is considered a heresy known as patripassianism). Clearly, the logic that you are using to criticize LDS belief extends to your own beliefs.

Jason_J- You are not understanding my argument, or apparently, Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

My other point was simply that your assertion that we believe in three beings while you don't doesn't work, since we do not share your definitions of "person" and "being", which originate in ancient Greek/Latin frameworks. However within that framework, you believe that while the three are one being, they are distinct persons (referring to two different concepts), and I was specifically addressing the distinct persons aspect.

Your point?

Latter-day Saints don't believe that we are rewarded for going against God either. Again, anything less than eternal life, exaltation, living in the presence of the Godhead, can be considered damnation.

Do Mormons worship this "Godhead", if not, what do you think you are in the presence of?

Latter-day Saints don't believe that either. We believe, as I have already said, that the work and the glory of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). Everything in the Kingdom of God, His restored Church, is pointed towards eternal life, exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Not all people will accept the Lord's Gospel, and therefore there are different rewards and consequences based on the faith and works of the person. Unfortunately, all of these are less than what God wants for us. Clearly, evil is not rewarded, and this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of LDS beliefs if you think we teach that.

Jason_J, God wills that we are perfected through Jesus Christ. Anything less than that is nothing. Certainly, I can't see this division of God as a reward system, but a manmade desire to mold God to some sort of comprise. God does not compromise, and His will is not divided.

Peace.

[Jason_J]

Jason_J- You are not understanding my argument, or apparently, Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

I very clearly understand the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, since everything I have stated about it is right in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If I am not understanding it, please demonstrate that. For proof of my understanding, I cite the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

This is exactly what I have been saying in this thread. In Trinitarianism, the three Persons are "really distinct from one another", where the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. This is where your argument against the LDS doctrine fails, because, while we disagree on how the 3 are 1, Trinitarians clearly believe that the 3 are distinct from each other ("God is one but not solitary"). That is the point I am addressing. If Trinitarians claim that the Son is distinct from the Father and the Spirit, as the Catechism teaches, then how is the only the Son incarnating on the earth (and not the Father, which would be patripassianism) not separating God, as you say LDS are doing? This is where your logic fails, since it condemns your own belief.

Your point?

My point is that you are applying your church's understanding of "person" and "being" to LDS beliefs, which doesn't work, since we do not use that understanding when we say things like "the 3 are 3 beings". While we use "being" and "person" interchangeably, as we do in everyday language, traditional Christians use them to mean two different things. When a Trinitarian says that God is one Being, it doesn't mean one Person, but for some reason, it seems as if this is stance that you are coming from, which is actually a heresy known as Modalism. If not, then it seems as if you are ignoring the fact that the Trinity doctrine teaches that the 3 are distinct persons who are not each other, which is the point I've been addressing this whole time.

Do Mormons worship this "Godhead", if not, what do you think you are in the presence of?

Of course. Eternal life includes living in the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Jason_J, God wills that we are perfected through Jesus Christ. Anything less than that is nothing. Certainly, I can't see this division of God as a reward system, but a manmade desire to mold God to some sort of comprise. God does not compromise, and His will is not divided.

Peace.

Members of the Lord's restored Church believe that God wills that we are perfected through Jesus Christ. We believe that He has restored His Kingdom, and that all of the ordinances, commandments, and doctrines point towards eternal life in His presence. Anything less can be considered damnation (as the Encyclopedia of Mormonism asserts). God only wants us to receive immortality and eternal life, and that is what He wills, as our scriptures assert. What you claim LDS believe is not what we actually believe.

[madeleine1]

I very clearly understand the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, since everything I have stated about it is right in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If I am not understanding it, please demonstrate that. For proof of my understanding, I cite the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

This is exactly what I have been saying in this thread. In Trinitarianism, the three Persons are "really distinct from one another", where the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. This is where your argument against the LDS doctrine fails, because, while we disagree on how the 3 are 1, Trinitarians clearly believe that the 3 are distinct from each other ("God is one but not solitary").

You are conflating distinct as divided, which, this belief that God can be divided is a heresy. It is a similar argument that is put forth by our brothers in the Muslim faith. It is an error in understanding of Trinitarian doctrine.

That is the point I am addressing. If Trinitarians claim that the Son is distinct from the Father and the Spirit, as the Catechism teaches, then how is the only the Son incarnating on the earth (and not the Father, which would be patripassianism) not separating God, as you say LDS are doing? This is where your logic fails, since it condemns your own belief.

The Divine Being, GOD, who we worship, is not made separate by the Incarnation. This is Trinitarian doctrine. I don't know why you insist that it is not? God is One, and cannot be divided, not any more than you can be divided.

If your will is to spend $100 dollars today to aid the poor, there is not another part of you that is simultaneously playing the same $100 dollars at the craps table in Vegas. The division is illogical and cannot occur.

God cannot simultaneously will your perfection through Jesus Christ while doing something that is outside of this will. The division is illogical and cannot occur.

My point is that you are applying your church's understanding of "person" and "being" to LDS beliefs, which doesn't work, since we do not use that understanding when we say things like "the 3 are 3 beings". While we use "being" and "person" interchangeably, as we do in everyday language, traditional Christians use them to mean two different things. When a Trinitarian says that God is one Being, it doesn't mean one Person, but for some reason, it seems as if this is stance that you are coming from, which is actually a heresy known as Modalism. If not, then it seems as if you are ignoring the fact that the Trinity doctrine teaches that the 3 are distinct persons who are not each other, which is the point I've been addressing this whole time.

I understand the language you are using. It is a language that purposely divides God.

I am not talking about modalism. I am talking about God, who is One being, and has one Will, not three.

Edited March 19, 2011 by madeleine1

[Jason_J]

You are conflating distinct as divided, which, this belief that God can be divided is a heresy. It is a similar argument that is put forth by our brothers in the Muslim faith. It is an error in understanding of Trinitarian doctrine.

No, I am not conflating distinct with divided, I am showing how, using the logic that you used to critique LDS belief, when applied to your own belief, that logic results in the same conclusion, that God is divided (I am not saying that that is true, but showing how your logic presents the same problem that you say is found in LDS belief, if we say that that logic is valid).

What I am addressing is the distinction between the Persons in Trinitarian belief.

The Divine Being, GOD, who we worship, is not made separate by the Incarnation. This is Trinitarian doctrine. I don't know why you insist that it is not? God is One, and cannot be divided, not any more than you can be divided.

Please show the post where I have stated that in Trinitarianism, the Divine Being is separated by the Incarnation. What I am addressing, again, is the distinction between the Persons. The Father is distinct from the Son and the Spirit, right? They are not each other, right? The Catechism says this, as I quoted. That is the issue that I am addressing, and showing that the argument you used against LDS belief can apply to Trinitarian belief, on that point. I have nowhere stated that the Divine Being is separated by the Incarnation, but that the Incarnation shows the distinction of Persons, according to standard Trinitarian teaching.

God is one Being, but He is Three Persons, according to the Trinity.

Also, using a human person as an analogy does not work in Trinitarianism, since I am one person. In Trinitarianism, God is one Being, but not one Person, He is Three.

If your will is to spend $100 dollars today to aid the poor, there is not another part of you that is simultaneously playing the same $100 dollars at the craps table in Vegas. The division is illogical and cannot occur.

And there is no analogous belief found in LDS teaching, and you have yet to demonstrate such. The gift of eternal life, being in the eternal presence of the Godhead and becoming like God, is only found in the Celestial Kingdom, and is what God wants for us, as I have repeatedly stated. It is not found in any other Kingdom, and anything less than eternal life is considered damnation, since progress is stopped. God doesn't want that for us, and only wants us to receive eternal life with Him through the atoning sacrifice of His Son. This is why your analogy doesn't work.

God cannot simultaneously will your perfection through Jesus Christ while doing something that is outside of this will. The division is illogical and cannot occur.

God doesn't will us to not be outside of His eternal presence. He allows us to freely choose. Your arguments aren't against LDS belief, but straw men. Again, God only wants us to receive immortality and eternal life. He does not want us to receive anything less. However, He does not force us, and allows us to freely choose to accept or reject His Gospel.

I understand the language you are using. It is a language that purposely divides God.

No it isn't. Talking about the distinction between the Persons is standard Trinitarianism, and is found right in the Catechism. It has nothing to do with dividing God. "Being" and "Person" refer to two different concepts in the Trinity doctrine, but it seems as if you want to equate them. That is heresy.

I am not talking about modalism. I am talking about God, who is One being, and has one Will, not three.

Yes, God is One Being, yet He is also three distinct persons. I am talking about the Three Distinct Persons and how they are relational and not each other (again, right in the Catechism). This is the point that you keep overlooking, and why you aren't understanding. "God is one but not solitary". It was the Son that incarnated, not the Father and the Spirit as well. That is what the Trinity doctrine teaches. It is that point that I am addressing, very simply. Do you agree that it was the Son that incarnated and not the other 2 Persons of the Trinity as well? If yes, then my argument stands, if no, then you are arguing from Modalism and not Trinitarianism.

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

[jayanna]

So in Mark 16:19 it says that Christ ascends after teaching and sits on the right hand of God...how can God sit next to himself?

Stephen also saw God and Jesus as two separate beings...in Acts Ch. 7 v. 55 and 56

the Father and the Son are one like my husband and I are one...one in purpose, one in goals, but two distinct individuals that can be in different places at the same time completing our goals.

The God that we worship eats and drinks, as found in Exodus 24: 10 and 11. Moses also told the people of God at that time that someday they would be scattered throughout the world and would worship gods that would "neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell." Deut. 4:28

It's not the best idea to try to tell a us members of the Church of Jesus Christ what we believe. Tell us what you believe, show us what you believe, and give us the same opportunity.

[jayanna]

In addressing an inquiry about different levels of heaven, we can refer in the King James version of the Bible to Paul's writings describing this...

in his 1st letter to the Corinthians Ch. 15 he wrote ":41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."

again he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven."

So from this third heaven we know, so far in our current study, that there are 4 places we can go after death: 1. hell 2. the first heaven 3. the second heaven and 4. the third heaven

But wait there is something else described in the N. T.- a judgement day described in several places, but let us look in

Rev. 20:12 where it says "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Where did these dead come from? "13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

and also described in Luke 23: 42 a thief was hung on a cross next to Jesus' cross "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

But three days later Jesus told Mary in John 20: 17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Do you suppose that Jesus lied to either of them? Of course He didn't, he was perfect and without sin, so how can both be true? There is only one answer: Paradise and Heaven are not the same place! Paradise (where the dead reside) and hell (where more dead reside) are places we can go while we await judgement day.

So we can come to the conclusion that on judgement day everyone will be judged at the same time

And thus we can know that when we die we can either go to 1 hell where we are separated from the presence of our Savior 2 paradise where we can be with the Savior

then later there is judgement day

and then we go to one of four places: hell, the first heaven, the second heaven or the third heaven, each having a different degree of glory : the sun, the moon, and the stars

and yes, I have many mainstream protestant friends that believe this very doctrine, as well as the doctrine of Christ being Gods son, and separate from His Father.

[madeleine1]

Jason-J, the God I worship has not prepared a second or third best place for me, and made something less a choice. His desire is nothing less than a joyous union, through Jesus Christ. The mansion He has prepared for me is greater than any can imagine. This is not through my work, but through God, alone.

Unfortunately, our conversation has turned to a feeling where I perceive you think I am attacking, when I am not. I am no longer comfortable with these sort of conversations, where God is brought down to this type of argument, so I wish you a blessed Sabbath and hope you find peace in the love and mercy of Jesus Christ. I leave you with the second reading for this day, from the second letter of St. Paul to the Timoth (2 Timothy 1:8-10).

Beloved:

Bear your share of hardship for the gospel

with the strength that comes from God.

He saved us and called us to a holy life,

not according to our works

but according to his own design

and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began,

but now made manifest

through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus,

who destroyed death and brought life and immortality

to light through the gospel.

Peace.

[Family_Man]

God wills that we are perfected through Jesus Christ. Anything less than that is nothing. Certainly, I can't see this division of God as a reward system, but a manmade desire to mold God to some sort of comprise. God does not compromise, and His will is not divided.

Peace.

So if God wills us to be perfect, but we are not, who is to blame? If we intentionally defy God's will, then can Jesus still perfect us?

The way I look at salvation is this, Jesus paid the price to buy each one of us a gift. He wrapped it up, and gave it to each and every one of us. The gift is there, wether we chose to accept it or not. Just like all gifts, we can decide to take it and use it everyday. Or we can take it and set it on a shelf, perhaps under a pile and ignore it. Or we can turn down the gift entirely. No matter what we do, the gift is bought and paid for, it is right there.

Salvation is the same, we can accept it and make use of it, or not. As for levels, we are told that there are differing "levels" because people will utilize the gift of salvation to different extents in their lives.

I guess a different way of saying it would be this;

The Savior is going to buy you a house, and better still he will let you chose the size/style. You can get a 8000 square foot mansion; a 1500 square foot split level or a loft apartment. He takes you to the apartment first, and if you decide it is good enough, He takes you no further. It is not that He doesn't want to take you further, it is that you don't want to go, so your actions prevent Him from bringing you to the next house. Then the split level and finally the mansion.

In both scenarios, the capacity for the best possible outcome is there. It is our ability or lack thereof to utilize that capacity that causes "levels" of seperation.

[madeleine1]

Hello Family_Man,

I don't see in scripture a description of heaven that is anything less than mansions. Your view also leaves out repentance and forgiveness. Especially, forgiveness.

Salvation is freely given, we agree there. I don't see that we are in agreement on the powerful nature of Salvation.

Our redemption is on the level of our creation, is how I understand our Salvation. I exist because God created me, out of love, not because I created myself. I am saved because God saved me, out of love, not because I saved myself. Salvation is something I receive, with profound gratitude, not something I take. To say I must consent to my creation or my salvation is like saying I must consent to the sun rising or the flower blooming. What consent am I going to give to these things?

I can cooperate with God, as I believe I should, but God is not going to cease to be God because I don't. Creation would not cease to exist and neither would salvation. I cannot perfect myself any more than I create or save myself. Only through Jesus Christ, and His unity with the Father and Holy Spirit, am I saved. It is a grace, not a self-creation.

In the same way, heaven, the place where God dwells, is not diminished by my imperfections. Quite the opposite, my imperfections are made perfect by God: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God, not being diminished because of my imperfections, would have no need of a diminished heaven because of those same imperfections. It is through Him I am made clean to stand in His presence.

Peace.

Edited March 20, 2011 by madeleine1

[Family_Man]

So you say that God will FORCE salvation upon everyone? That seems odd, considering how much emphasis God puts into free will. It seems like the only thing He forces upon us is death and ressurection. As for being born, we all CHOSE to come here, whereas 1/3 of the host of heaven chose a different route.