different "levels" in heaven

[madeleine1]

God is love, created us from this love. Jesus commands us to love God. Love is never forced. God did not ask our permission for anything, as everything is done according to HIS Will, not ours. Our creation is the intention of God's Will, not ours. When we do not love God, we are doing so according to our own will, not God's. This is the definition of sin: rebellion against God.

The Father, in His unconditional and eternal love for us, sent us a Son. Jesus is God Incarnate, the perfection of all humans, and the love of God made manifest in the world.

What, do you get out this, that is forced? Does a parent force their child to eat? Or is a child fed in order that they might not die? In the same way, Jesus is the Bread of Life.

Peace.

[BenRaines]

I did not read all the posts in this thread but I have always had trouble believing that God has only a pass/fail for getting in to heaven. As one of my friends said "I don't believe in a God that only rewards the fast learners".

An interesting thought.

Ben Raines

[madeleine1]

Which of course, that is not the message of Christianity, at all. The prodigal son being an example of a slow learner.

Peace.

[BenRaines]

Do you believe then that the Prodigal Son is a representation of afterlife? I think that it is an example of one who still comes back but in mortality.

Ben Raines

[Family_Man]

To say I must consent to my creation or my salvation is like saying I must consent to the sun rising or the flower blooming. What consent am I going to give to these things?

So somehow we receive salvation simply by existing? But what if someone didn't want salvation? Apparently it doesn't matter, because they are going to get saved no matter what.

[madeleine1]

So somehow we receive salvation simply by existing? But what if someone didn't want salvation? Apparently it doesn't matter, because they are going to get saved no matter what.

I guess I don't understand what you are asking. God is God, and is not reliant on us, at all. We are reliant on God.

There is but one response that God desires from us, and that is to love God with all our hearts, might, mind and strength and likewise to love our neighbor as ourselves. From this, everything else regarding our faith, our life, will flow. Our obedience to God comes from love of God, not out of a desire to do something we don't believe or accept.

In the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God has made manifest His love for ALL. This is clearly taught in the NT. Christ died once for all. This is not something that can be undone because you don't want it. It is a very odd view to think that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ only has meaning for those who accept Jesus. The meaning and affect exist, as a fact, and don't cease to exist or have meaning because you don't believe. The Reality of Jesus Christ cannot be undone.

All will be judged according to God's purpose, which has made known through Jesus Christ as a desire to be justified before the Father. There is nothing in scripture that indicates God's purpose, His desire for us, includes a separation from Himself.

The unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in our Salvation is that of One God, and they cannot be divided.

[madeleine1]

Do you believe then that the Prodigal Son is a representation of afterlife? I think that it is an example of one who still comes back but in mortality.

Ben Raines

St. Paul makes few comments, where, he describes himself as the "slow learner". For example, in Romans 7:

15

What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate.

16

Now if I do what I do not want, I concur that the law is good.

17

So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

18

For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. The willing is ready at hand, but doing the good is not.

19

For I do not do the good I want, but I do the evil I do not want.

20

Now if (I) do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21

So, then, I discover the principle that when I want to do right, evil is at hand.

22

For I take delight in the law of God, in my inner self,

23

but I see in my members another principle at war with the law of my mind, taking me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 5

24

Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body?

25

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.

The prodigal son is an example of being slow. While the son was wandering, what was he accountable for? Only God could answer this. I will only say, from a Catholic perspective, no one knows the heart of another person, or their intention. Many wander, some return, others die while journeying and never return. The desire to follow God in our own understanding is all anyone can do and what all be judged for.

The prodigal son is also an example of our Salvation, as a whole. By one man death and sin entered the world, by another Man, all are Saved. We are brought home to the Father, through the Son. As a people, the human race, and as individuals, each one of us precious and well-loved by God.

We're all slow. The moment anyone believes they are the fast learner, and possess everything they need to know, is the moment they have become the slowest learner of all!

Peace.

[Family_Man]

I guess I don't understand what you are asking. God is God, and is not reliant on us, at all. We are reliant on God.

There is but one response that God desires from us, and that is to love God with all our hearts, might, mind and strength and likewise to love our neighbor as ourselves. From this, everything else regarding our faith, our life, will flow. Our obedience to God comes from love of God, not out of a desire to do something we don't believe or accept.

In the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God has made manifest His love for ALL. This is clearly taught in the NT. Christ died once for all. This is not something that can be undone because you don't want it. It is a very odd view to think that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ only has meaning for those who accept Jesus. The meaning and affect exist, as a fact, and don't cease to exist or have meaning because you don't believe. The Reality of Jesus Christ cannot be undone.

All will be judged according to God's purpose, which has made known through Jesus Christ as a desire to be justified before the Father. There is nothing in scripture that indicates God's purpose, His desire for us, includes a separation from Himself.

The unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in our Salvation is that of One God, and they cannot be divided.

I think you are talking about two different ideas, namely ressurection and eternal salvation. Because CHrist died and then rose, we will ALL be ressurected. Eternal Salvation on the other hand is only obtainable to those who put the grace of Christ to work in their lives.

Consider the need for baptism, this is a saving ordinance, yet if you chose to NOT get baptised, or to not accept a proxy baptism, than you chose to not accept Eternal Salvation.

I think a key concept you are missing here is that Heavenly Father's desires are different from his rules. Heavely Father never once said "Everyone will live with me, regardless of what path they take". We are free to chose what direction we take, and in so doing free to decide where we will end up in the afterlife.

It is NOT that Heavenly Father wants some of us to end up eternally damned. Nor is it a matter of Jesus not atoning for us. It is a matter of us CHOSING whether or not to accept the atonement through the actions we take.

Also, when did I say you stop existing? If you never accept Jesus, and never accept the ordinances that He requires, you will get ressurected, but you will also end up falling short of Eternal Glory.

[madeleine1]

Circling back to the original topic :) when you say God does not want some of us to be eternally damned...then are we in agreement, that God would not prepare for something He does not desire?

Thus, why create something less, and call it a choice? Free will is not about creating choices that are against the will of God. God only has one will for us, not three ore more. If you go down that path, then I can only see a conclusion where one must believe that God is the creator of evil, in order that we might choose sin.

Free will is about being able to choose to love God freely. This is why God created us, and why He has given us free will. He didn't give us free will in order that we could sin. When we go against God's desires, we are abusing our free will, not exercising it as God intended. He is the creator of our freedom. He did not create us to sin, or to suffer.

It is not about following rules, it is about using God's gifts as they were intended.

But finally, no, I am not talking about two different ideas. But I'll leave it at these few things here...wondering if there can be an agreement on the definition of free will, before conversing further.

Peace.

[rameumptom]

LDS belief is that matter is eternal, co-eternal with God. God did not create us ex nihilo (from nothing), but formed us from existing matter. There are a variety of LDS theories on how that happened, and it has been discussed on this list before.

That we are formed by God from existing materials, and that he then breathed life into us, means that God did not have to create evil. It is based upon agency, free will, and the struggle between the portion of us that is co-eternal with God and co-eternal with matter.

God desires the best for his children. But not all of his children desire everything he wishes to give them. We learn from the Book of Mormon that for many, it would be worse for them to dwell in God's presence than in hell (Alma 12, Mormon 9:4). God does not wish to cast all those who are not ready and willing to fully follow him into eternal hell. So, he offers to them as much of his glory as they are willing and able to receive. The ancient Christian text Ascension of Isaiah agrees with this concept, as Christ descends the levels of heaven, he empties himself of glory so that those on lower levels can bear to be in his presence.

This shows God's true love and mercy.

BTW, I DO believe that God needs us. I disagree with St Augustine's concept of the Unmoved Mover, but believe he is the Most Moved Mover. LDS doctrine teaches that God's "work and glory is to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of mankind" (Moses 1:39). God needs us as much as we need him. This is because in LDS thought, we are the literal spirit children of God. Unlike Trinitarians who think we are made of other substance than God and can never truly be like him, LDS believe we are made of the same stuff (consubstantial) with God, and as an acorn can grow to be an oak, we too can grow to be like God. In this, he has a need to continue the organization of the universe, creating more children and planets, where life and glory can expand throughout the universe.

[jayanna]

Circling back to the original topic :) when you say God does not want some of us to be eternally damned...then are we in agreement, that God would not prepare for something He does not desire?

Thus, why create something less, and call it a choice? Free will is not about creating choices that are against the will of God. God only has one will for us, not three ore more. If you go down that path, then I can only see a conclusion where one must believe that God is the creator of evil, in order that we might choose sin.

Free will is about being able to choose to love God freely. This is why God created us, and why He has given us free will. He didn't give us free will in order that we could sin. When we go against God's desires, we are abusing our free will, not exercising it as God intended. He is the creator of our freedom. He did not create us to sin, or to suffer.

It is not about following rules, it is about using God's gifts as they were intended.

But finally, no, I am not talking about two different ideas. But I'll leave it at these few things here...wondering if there can be an agreement on the definition of free will, before conversing further.

Peace.

Of course he wants us to choose to follow Him.

Meaning there has to be a choice

so He put the tree in the garden

He had Satan cast to Earth, not Mars, or Jupiter, but where we are.

Of course he prepared for us to choose sin.

That's why He sent us a Savior, chosen before the earth was formed, he knew we would not be perfect.

Yes, He has created different kingdoms, each with a different glory like the sun, moon, and stars. I have pointed out where that can be found in the Bible, as well as where in Bible it describes how we will be judged by our works.

The fact that the God you worship doesn't have more than one heaven, well, I can't say...

You have your beliefs, they are yours, I would ask you to please not label, disparage or attempt to interpret "Mormon" principles.